Micro's Warshade wishlist

[Microcosm]

Hi all, I've been thinking this over as I've struggled with challenges of Warshades in the current game. We often talk about Peacebringers needing changes, but I honestly think they are better off right now than Warshades. I'm also pretty careful about buffing to the point of overpowering classes, as I feel the power creep has gotten out of hand in most of the game. To that end, here is the list of things I would like changed without going overboard. Feel free to flame.

 

Need

Dark Melee improvements applied.

In Issue 13, the then under-performing Dark Melee set was given tweaks to smooth out its attacks and improve its single-target abilities. These consisted of

1. Changing Soul Drain (map to Sunless Mire) to front-load its buffs with smaller buffs for more targets hit. This was so that against a single-target you would get a buff more similar to a build up effect, and fully saturated you would get the same buffs as originally
2. Siphon Life (map to Essence Drain) recharge reduced and damage increased
3. Midnight's Grasp (partial map to Gravity Well) initial damage increased and DoT shortened

These changes were proliferated everywhere these powers existed... except to the Warshade clones. Warshades are ridiculously bad at single-target damage currently (possibly the worst in the game), and this is part of why. We don't have to apply the change to Gravity Well, but the other two absolutely should be.

 

Toggle suppression.

The biggest and most agreed upon QoL change requested. The code exists at least in part already (Stalker offensive toggles suppress when Hidden), we just need it applied for Kheldian forms. 'Nuff said.

 

Pets.

Warshade pets make up a significant chunk of their damage, both single-target and AoE. They are also fun, unique and challenging in their use. As it stands though, they are almost worthless in the current game. They like to kamikaze enemies even though they have no melee attacks at all, and they die to a stiff breeze because they have no native resistance or defense. Even fire imps get some resistance to fire damage. Most other pets get some resist/defense, and are also paired with a class that can buff or heal them to keep them alive, unlike Warshades who cannot. There was a time on live where they would inherit their owner's Eclipse buffs and get good resistance values for at least a small amount of their life span, but that was apparently removed at some point; currently they will inherit Sunless Mire buffs but not Eclipse.

How to fix: 1) make them not close to melee like the recent mm changes, 2) let them inherit Eclipse buffs again.

 

Pets...2

shigan5 noted something here that most the rest of us just got used to being painful over so long. If you use the Dark Extraction power on a defeated enemy and that enemy disappears before the (longish) animation is complete, you will have "used" the power, but you get no pet. This is just a silly thing that punishes people for no reason. As soon as you kick off the power against a defeated enemy it should guarantee a resulting pet.

 

Want (very badly)

Status protection from shields.

The human shields are largely useless on both Kheldians because of no toggle suppression and because Eclipse/Lightform, well, eclipse them. Warshades also have 0 mez protection (Pbs get some in Lightform) on a class that is designed to operate mostly in melee range. I would like to add a single point of mez protection against Hold, Sleep, Stun and Fear to Absorption and each of the toggle shields. (Pbs I would do the same except Confuse protection instead of Fear, seems more thematic for the two). This makes the shields no longer worthless, but not overpowered, and does not step on the toes of Dwarf as the magnitude is small even if you take and run all of the shields.

 

Knock-to instead of Knock-back.

Warshades pay a knockback tax on many of their powers. This is not at all thematic, as their powers are mostly based on Gravity... Why do we hit enemies with Gravitic Emanation and have them fly away from us? These powers should be changed to a new, unique mechanic of knock toward the player. This fits the theme, works better with the Warshade's powers which actually require enemies near them, not scattered, and would make them uniquely valuable on teams as a class that can actively cluster small groups of enemies.

Edit: Redlynne pointed out another option is to use the wormhole group teleports to mimic this behavior without additional code. Whatever works to make it happen I say.

 

Want (less badly)

End drain protection in Dwarf.

Dwarf form is the turtle shell, oh crap, protection form. You can, however, easily be detoggled from Dwarf form by end drain attacks. Normal tanking characters can run toggles, either from their powersets or pools, to avoid end drain attacks or have built in end drain protection. Since Dwarf cannot run any defense toggles, I think a small amount of end drain protection would be in order to allow you to keep tanking a little in -end situations.

 

Damage cap increase.

For both Kheldians. They are built with low base damage and the ability to buff themselves fairly well. This works ok-ish solo, but on teams means they top out in performance way before anyone else does, and actively makes their current inherent less valuable.

 

Addition: Dwarf Mire Taunt.

Request from Doom that seems reasonable. Simply put, PB Dwarf gets a taunt in their AoE attack to help with off-tanking, but WS Dwarf does not. This seems needlessly inconsistent, and makes WS Dwarf an inferior off-tank.

 

That's it. Flame away.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Microcosm

[AlienOne]

I absolutely agree with all of this. FANTASTIC suggestions. Toggle suppression is sorely needed--particularly with Kheldians because of their form changing. If you Bi-form or Tri-form, it makes taking any toggle power outside the squid/dwarf forms basically impossible, because you're not going to get use out of it. Pets absolutely need to benefit from Eclipse buffs, and those buffs could drop when the player's eclipse drops as well. There are other ways to get status protection in builds through enhancements or incarnate powers, but putting status protection in the shields would make things a LOT easier (and more attractive to play through) for a lower level Warshade. Right now shields are completely worthless. Status protection would make them worth taking as you level up--you could always respec out of them later. The knock-to idea is very interesting. Several Warshade signature powers benefit greatly from having enemies clustered tightly together (eclipse, stygian circle, sunless mire, etc.), and yet several of their powers have built-in knockback. To me, that's just bad game design. It makes more sense for a Peacebringer because they're more single-target based. So, you could utilize the KB to keep larger clusters of enemies away as you concentrate on a single target. But, with a Warshade, you WANT larger groups of enemies nearby, because it makes you stronger. So, why have ANY KB in a Warshade power? It doesn't make any sense. So, an idea to make powers pull enemies towards you would thematically fit with all their signature powers. And, of course, any damage increase you could give them would just be gravy on all those great suggestions.

 

Thanks for the post, Micro.

[Doomrider]

42 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

Hi all, I've been thinking this over as I've struggled with challenges of Warshades in the current game. We often talk about Peacebringers needing changes, but I honestly think they are better off right now than Warshades. I'm also pretty careful about buffing to the point of overpowering classes, as I feel the power creep has gotten out of hand in most of the game. To that end, here is the list of things I would like changed without going overboard. Feel free to flame.

 

*Doom casts Thermal Shield over this thread*

 

44 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

 

Need

Dark Melee improvements applied.

In Issue 13, the then under-performing Dark Melee set was given tweaks to smooth out its attacks and improve its single-target abilities. These consisted of

1. Changing Soul Drain (map to Sunless Mire) to front-load its buffs with smaller buffs for more targets hit. This was so that against a single-target you would get a buff more similar to a build up effect, and fully saturated you would get the same buffs as originally
2. Siphon Life (map to Essence Drain) recharge reduced and damage increased
3. Midnight's Grasp (partial map to Gravity Well) initial damage increased and DoT shortened

These changes were proliferated everywhere these powers existed... except to the Warshade clones. Warshades are ridiculously bad at single-target damage currently (possibly the worst in the game), and this is part of why. We don't have to apply the change to Gravity Well, but the other two absolutely should be.

 

100% this stuff. I'd take it one step further for Gravity Well though. Change the activation time from 2.07 to 1.87 (same as Block of Ice) to give it a slight DPA buff since most of our measly ST DPS is attached to this one ability. That and even with Essence Drain getting a dmg buff, it will still end up being having 1.93 activation time which is IMO, a little on the long side but it is what it is.

 

 

48 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

 

Toggle suppression.

The biggest and most agreed upon QoL change requested. The code exists at least in part already (Stalker offensive toggles suppress when Hidden), we just need it applied for Kheldian forms. 'Nuff said.

 

Ditto. 

 

 

48 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

 

Pets.

Warshade pets make up a significant chunk of their damage, both single-target and AoE. They are also fun, unique and challenging in their use. As it stands though, they are almost worthless in the current game. They like to kamikaze enemies even though they have no melee attacks at all, and they die to a stiff breeze because they have no native resistance or defense. Even fire imps get some resistance to fire damage. Most other pets get some resist/defense, and are also paired with a class that can buff or heal them to keep them alive, unlike Warshades who cannot. There was a time on live where they would inherit their owner's Eclipse buffs and get good resistance values for at least a small amount of their life span, but that was apparently removed at some point; currently they will inherit Sunless Mire buffs but not Eclipse.

How to fix: 1) make them not close to melee like the recent mm changes, 2) let them inherit Eclipse buffs again.

 

I really don't care how they manage it, but if fluffies are going to contribute so much to a Warshades ST dps, they need to be more robust. Whether that's through your suggestion to let them inherit Eclipse buffs, or other means. As is they draw too much aggro considering their frailty, and they should under no circumstances enter melee range.

 

52 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

 

Want (very badly)

Status protection from shields.

The human shields are largely useless on both Kheldians because of no toggle suppression and because Eclipse/Lightform, well, eclipse them. Warshades also have 0 mez protection (Pbs get some in Lightform) on a class that is designed to operate mostly in melee range. I would like to add a single point of mez protection against Hold, Sleep, Stun and Fear to Absorption and each of the toggle shields. (Pbs I would do the same except Confuse protection instead of Fear, seems more thematic for the two). This makes the shields no longer worthless, but not overpowered, and does not step on the toes of Dwarf as the magnitude is small even if you take and run all of the shields.

 

On top of something like this, I'd like to see the human shields consolidated into 2 toggles rather than 3 but I agree the shields are largely useless outside of being mules and don't do enough individually to try and build around them.

 

55 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

 

Knock-to instead of Knock-back.

Warshades pay a knockback tax on many of their powers. This is not at all thematic, as their powers are mostly based on Gravity... Why do we hit enemies with Gravitic Emanation and have them fly away from us? These powers should be changed to a new, unique mechanic of knock toward the player. This fits the theme, works better with the Warshade's powers which actually require enemies near them, not scattered, and would make them uniquely valuable on teams as a class that can actively cluster small groups of enemies.

 

This is an interesting one, and onei've heard suggested before. I wouldn't be opposed to it especially given the slot tax that's imposed on Warshades who want to neutralize KB in their powers.

 

 

57 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

 

Want (less badly)

End drain protection in Dwarf.

Dwarf form is the turtle shell, oh crap, protection form. You can, however, easily be detoggled from Dwarf form by end drain attacks. Normal tanking characters can run toggles, either from their powersets or pools, to avoid end drain attacks or have built in end drain protection. Since Dwarf cannot run any defense toggles, I think a small amount of end drain protection would be in order to allow you to keep tanking a little in -end situations.

 

OR... what about if Stygian Circle gave 50% end drain protection for 120 seconds just like consume? It might change how the ability is flagged (since it only currently uses dead bodies as targets IIRC, but that might be a viable option and one that would benefit both Human only builds and Triforms since it's a staple power.
 

 

59 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

 

Damage cap increase.

For both Kheldians. They are built with low base damage and the ability to buff themselves fairly well. This works ok-ish solo, but on teams means they top out in performance way before anyone else does, and actively makes their current inherent less valuable.

 

Would a small base dmg increase across the board be out of the question? We have a few powers with identical DPA right now (shadow bolt, ebon eye and gravimetric snare) which seem a) kind of redundant but b) also a little under powered tbh. Base recharge would likely have to change for these as well but I think it would be worth it. How many attacks do tri-formers need that recharge in 4 seconds or less? 😂
 

[Septipheran]

Micro, you're not wrong about this and I applaud you. Of course, I also have notes. 😁

 

I'd rather see Warshade status protection either in an auto-power of some sort or baked into Eclipse, not in a toggle. Peacebringers have access to Light Form which grants status protection in all forms. Under your proposal, Nova for Warhsades still wouldn't have any status protection.

 

Something else we need is an accurate resist IO (or preferably IO set.) As far as I am aware, Eclipse is the only accurate resist power in the game. We used to be able to use Nucleo's back when they enhanced damage resistance before the snap, but that got nerfed back then. So we were left with nothing. I think if a new round of ATO's is made, Warshades should get an accurate resist set.

 

As far as fluffies go, I think it's viable to consider buffing them, but it might also make sense to lower their damage and increase warshade's damage modifiers so the AT is less reliant on pets for damage output. Either that, or make them more durable as you mentioned. I would also like at least one to be able to zone with you. 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Septipheran

[AlienOne]

1 hour ago, Septipheran said:

it might also make sense to lower their damage and increase warshade's damage modifiers so the AT is less reliant on pets for damage output.

I wouldn't be opposed to this suggestion either.

[Microcosm]

2 hours ago, Doomrider said:

I really don't care how they manage it, but if fluffies are going to contribute so much to a Warshades ST dps, they need to be more robust. Whether that's through your suggestion to let them inherit Eclipse buffs, or other means. As is they draw too much aggro considering their frailty, and they should under no circumstances enter melee range.

Either way works. I prefer the Eclipse variant, as that makes your most recent pets very sturdy for a while and your older ones as they are now, while giving them inherent resist or defense will make them all a little sturdy for the duration. I prefer to have at least one pet that is almost guaranteed to survive (and the one with the longest remaining lifespan at that) than to have them all take one or two more hits, especially since we have no ways to buff or heal them.

 

Quote

On top of something like this, I'd like to see the human shields consolidated into 2 toggles rather than 3 but I agree the shields are largely useless outside of being mules and don't do enough individually to try and build around them.

I actually do have a human build that uses them in case of both exemplaring and when facing a lone target, but I wouldn't be super sad if Twilight Shield was axed. It might mess up some peoples builds though, so it would need to be done carefully.

 

Quote

OR... what about if Stygian Circle gave 50% end drain protection for 120 seconds just like consume? It might change how the ability is flagged (since it only currently uses dead bodies as targets IIRC, but that might be a viable option and one that would benefit both Human only builds and Triforms since it's a staple power.

That works as well, I'm just being careful to make Dwarf still the go-to for mez and status protections. If you were to put it in Stygian Circle, I'd prefer it not to require hitting a body first, as otherwise it means you'd have to wait until an enemy has fallen to get your -end protection which can be too late.

 

Quote

Would a small base dmg increase across the board be out of the question? We have a few powers with identical DPA right now (shadow bolt, ebon eye and gravimetric snare) which seem a) kind of redundant but b) also a little under powered tbh. Base recharge would likely have to change for these as well but I think it would be worth it. How many attacks do tri-formers need that recharge in 4 seconds or less? 

Not at all against this. Shadow bolt and Gravimetric snare are very dubious value.

 

2 hours ago, Septipheran said:

Micro, you're not wrong about this and applaud you. Of course, I also have notes. 😁

 

I expect nothing less 😉

Quote

I'd rather see Warshade status protection either in an auto-power of some sort or baked into Eclipse, not in a toggle. Peacebringers have access to Light Form which grants status protection in all forms. Under your proposal, Nova for Warhsades still wouldn't have any status protection.

I do list Absorption as one of them, which is auto and something you have to take anyway. I place 1 each in the shields as it gives a reason to take them and actively forces you to make build choices of "well do I want that extra point of mez protection enough for this shield, or am I good with these two plus the Absorption" etc. Another point in Eclipse seems fine, as long as it was 1 point and not 1 point per enemy hit. The lack of mez protection in Nova form was intentional. I realize this makes the PB version better in that regard, but honestly WS Nova is a bit better at damage in its primary use case of AoE so it's a wash.

 

Quote

Something else we need is an accurate resist IO (or preferably IO set.) As far as I am aware, Eclipse is the only accurate resist power in the game. We used to be able to use Nucleo's back when they enhanced damage resistance before the snap, but that got nerfed back then. So we were left with nothing. I think if a new round of ATO's is made, Warshades should get an accurate resist set.

That's a cool idea. Right now I +5 an acc IO for it, but a set around it would be interesting.

 

Quote

As far as fluffies go, I think it's viable to consider buffing them, but it might also make sense to lower their damage and increase warshade's damage modifiers so the AT is less reliant on pets for damage output. Either that, or make them more durable as you mentioned. I would also like at least one to be able to zone with you. 

I prefer to keep them as they are damage-wise. Managing the pets, to me, was part of the roller-coaster fun for a WS, at least until I got to Homecoming and watched them drop like flies. It was part of what made Warshades more difficult and more rewarding to play than anything else. If they moved the damage around and kept the pets as fragile as they are now, I think I'd be pretty bummed. If they were more durable and the damage was shifted from them to you, it might be ok.

 

Thanks for the responses guys; good thoughts 🙂

 

[Septipheran]

28 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

I prefer to keep them as they are damage-wise. Managing the pets, to me, was part of the roller-coaster fun for a WS, at least until I got to Homecoming and watched them drop like flies. It was part of what made Warshades more difficult and more rewarding to play than anything else. If they moved the damage around and kept the pets as fragile as they are now, I think I'd be pretty bummed. If they were more durable and the damage was shifted from them to you, it might be ok.

 

Thanks for the responses guys; good thoughts 🙂

 

  Tanking for the pets is definitely a fun aspect of playing the class, but When you have 3 or 4 of them up, they're out-damaging you to a ridiculous extent. You're almost better off in a lot of cases not even running into melee to buff up, and just trying to pull enemies into fluffy AOE's when solo. Of course if we can get them to not follow you into melee that would be alleviated, but it doesn't change the fact that around 70% of your damage probably comes from those things under optimal conditions. (This is hyperbole but what I'm getting at is the damage from warshade vs. damage from fluffies ratio feels waaay off.)

28 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

I expect nothing less 😉

I do list Absorption as one of them, which is auto and something you have to take anyway. I place 1 each in the shields as it gives a reason to take them and actively forces you to make build choices of "well do I want that extra point of mez protection enough for this shield, or am I good with these two plus the Absorption" etc. Another point in Eclipse seems fine, as long as it was 1 point and not 1 point per enemy hit. The lack of mez protection in Nova form was intentional. I realize this makes the PB version better in that regard, but honestly WS Nova is a bit better at damage in its primary use case of AoE so it's a wash.

It just feels a bit inconsistent and slightly unreasonable to me that Peacebringers get access to complete status protection in all forms but don't have any offensive toggles (unlike Wrshades who are potentially much more likely to get inconvenienced by mez than PB's are if they use Inky Aspect or OD.) It seems like an unnecessary disparity that needs to be corrected. I don't think building around acquiring status protection is something warshade players should have to be handcuffed by. We're handcuffed by enough already, from a 'things-to-build-for' perspective. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Septipheran

[Redlynne]

5 hours ago, Microcosm said:

Toggle suppression.

The biggest and most agreed upon QoL change requested. The code exists at least in part already (Stalker offensive toggles suppress when Hidden), we just need it applied for Kheldian forms. 'Nuff said.

One of the challenges with toggle suppression is that because of the way the game mechanics are programmed you'd still be draining endurance for having them up while they toggles are suppressed (which hardly seems fair).

 

What I would personally do about this situation would be to (in effect) proliferate the way that Swap Ammo works for Dual Pistols into (non-form) toggle powers for Kheldians using this rule of thumb:

Human form = full buff effects

Nova form = quarter buff effects

Dwarf form = half buff effects

 

So the "bubble" shields for Khelidan forms would yield Resistances like so:

Human form = +22.5% Resistance

Nova form = +5.625% Resistance

Dwarf form = +11.25% Resistance

 

That way, the toggles don't "suppress" (per se) but they also don't yield "full value" in Nova and Dwarf forms.  You can then copy/paste this methodology to apply to Pool power toggles (like Leadership) so as to back door your way into a "suppression-ish" kind of behavior where you lose some of the value of keeping your toggles running while in forms, without losing ALL benefit(s) of those toggles (while still paying full price for their endurance cost maintenance).

5 hours ago, Microcosm said:

Want (very badly)

Status protection from shields.

The human shields are largely useless on both Kheldians because of no toggle suppression and because Eclipse/Lightform, well, eclipse them. Warshades also have 0 mez protection (Pbs get some in Lightform) on a class that is designed to operate mostly in melee range. I would like to add a single point of mez protection against Hold, Sleep, Stun and Fear to Absorption and each of the toggle shields. (Pbs I would do the same except Confuse protection instead of Fear, seems more thematic for the two). This makes the shields no longer worthless, but not overpowered, and does not step on the toes of Dwarf as the magnitude is small even if you take and run all of the shields.

I'd actually argue that this would be perhaps the biggest possible "love buff" that Kheldians could receive.

 

-1 MAG Mez Protection per Khelidian Shield power (there are 3 for Peacebringers and Warshades)

 

You could even incorporate the above notion of limiting that buff in Nova and Dwarf forms like so:

 

Human form = -1 MAG Mez Protection per Kheldian Shield power

Nova form = -0.25 MAG Mez Protection per Kheldian Shield power

Dwarf form = -0.5 MAG Mez Protection per Kheldian Shield power

5 hours ago, Microcosm said:

Knock-to instead of Knock-back.

Warshades pay a knockback tax on many of their powers. This is not at all thematic, as their powers are mostly based on Gravity... Why do we hit enemies with Gravitic Emanation and have them fly away from us? These powers should be changed to a new, unique mechanic of knock toward the player. This fits the theme, works better with the Warshade's powers which actually require enemies near them, not scattered, and would make them uniquely valuable on teams as a class that can actively cluster small groups of enemies.

The game simply doesn't allow this behavior to happen.  The underlying game mechanics simply AREN'T THERE.

 

I'd be perfectly happy to limit all Warshade Knock* powers into following the Air Superiority precedent of doing 0.75 MAG KnockUP ... which would dump stuff on the ground by flipping them keister over kettle where they stood.  Heck, incorporating -Fly into Warshade GRAVITY powers would make a whole lot of sense, in addition to the Slow and -Recharge debuffing they do.

[Microcosm]

8 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

One of the challenges with toggle suppression is that because of the way the game mechanics are programmed you'd still be draining endurance for having them up while they toggles are suppressed (which hardly seems fair).

 

What I would personally do about this situation would be to (in effect) proliferate the way that Swap Ammo works for Dual Pistols into (non-form) toggle powers for Kheldians using this rule of thumb:

Human form = full buff effects

Nova form = quarter buff effects

Dwarf form = half buff effects

 

So the "bubble" shields for Khelidan forms would yield Resistances like so:

Human form = +22.5% Resistance

Nova form = +5.625% Resistance

Dwarf form = +11.25% Resistance

 

That way, the toggles don't "suppress" (per se) but they also don't yield "full value" in Nova and Dwarf forms.  You can then copy/paste this methodology to apply to Pool power toggles (like Leadership) so as to back door your way into a "suppression-ish" kind of behavior where you lose some of the value of keeping your toggles running while in forms, without losing ALL benefit(s) of those toggles (while still paying full price for their endurance cost maintenance).

 

I'd actually argue that this would be perhaps the biggest possible "love buff" that Kheldians could receive.

 

-1 MAG Mez Protection per Khelidian Shield power (there are 3 for Peacebringers and Warshades)

 

You could even incorporate the above notion of limiting that buff in Nova and Dwarf forms like so:

 

Human form = -1 MAG Mez Protection per Kheldian Shield power

Nova form = -0.25 MAG Mez Protection per Kheldian Shield power

Dwarf form = -0.5 MAG Mez Protection per Kheldian Shield power

Sure, if that's the way to get it to work, why not. Even if it cost endurance in the forms to keep them toggled, it would still be worth it though. If you didn't want to pay that cost you could simply detoggle all of them as part of your shift binds.

 

Quote

The game simply doesn't allow this behavior to happen.  The underlying game mechanics simply AREN'T THERE.

 

I'd be perfectly happy to limit all Warshade Knock* powers into following the Air Superiority precedent of doing 0.75 MAG KnockUP ... which would dump stuff on the ground by flipping them keister over kettle where they stood.  Heck, incorporating -Fly into Warshade GRAVITY powers would make a whole lot of sense, in addition to the Slow and -Recharge debuffing they do.

Yep, I'm advocating for a new mechanic in this case. It shouldn't be too rough to do, honestly. Existing Knockback needs a magnitude and a vector from the origin of the KB (either the player or a power summons, like Dark Detonation). This would require a copy of the Knockback mechanic applied to these powers with a reversed vector. That way Dark Detonation would "suck" affected enemies into the target, and Gravitic Emanation would "suck" enemies toward the player. It could otherwise function the same as Knockback, allowing enhancements to increase or nullify the knock mag. This is obviously the most work of all the suggestions, but I think it would be very valuable.

 

[Redlynne]

Just now, Microcosm said:

It shouldn't be too rough to do, honestly.

Easy to say/post.

Insert STANDARD CODE RANT here.

 

1 minute ago, Microcosm said:

Existing Knockback needs a magnitude and a vector from the origin of the KB (either the player or a power summons, like Dark Detonation). This would require a copy of the Knockback mechanic applied to these powers with a reversed vector.

Do you know what happens why you try to do that?

You ADD KNOCKBACK PROTECTION to your $Target.

 

There IS NO "reversed vector" functionality supported in the game mechanics.  I talked to Arbiter Hawk at the 2012 Player Summit about this very issue.  The game mechanics DO NOT SUPPORT what you are so blithely assuming that they do/can.

 

The game supports two (and only two) vectors for Knock effects.

AWAY from Caster.

AWAY from Ground/Down.

 

The first is called KnockBACK.

The second is called KnockUP.

You don't get a third.

 

I repeat ... YOU DON'T GET A THIRD OPTION.

 

With the current functionality of how powers "work" inside of the game engine, just about the only way to "suck" a $Target towards you is via Teleport.  Warshades can already do this with their Level 8 power (in Human form) to a single $Target.

 

 

 

Now, I will freely admit that it would be amazingly COOL to reprogram Gravitic Emanation into being a sort of "hacked port" of Wormhole from Gravity Control ... such that everything within the (line of sight) Cone of effect gets Teleported to a location FIXED AT 7 FT IN FRONT OF THE CASTER'S FACING WHEN CASTING so as to dump everything "Wormhole style" right in front of you (in melee range) that you catch in the Cone(!) ... THAT could be done.  But you wouldn't be using a Knock effect in order to achieve that result ... you'd be using a Teleport to reposition $Targets.  Rig the visual FX right and it will even look like everything "streaks" towards you as you "pull" them in with your Gravitic Emanation.

[Microcosm]

Yep. I am a programmer. I am aware it's not something that currently exists. It is possible to add it. Could it be very difficult? Yes. Could it turn out to be not that bad? Yes. We don't know. I haven't had the pleasure/pain of seeing this code base, but I'd be quite willing to help. But honestly, changing them to a wormhole function like you're saying already exists and would be functionally adequate, so let's go with that. For Gravitic Em, it wormholes them in front of the caster. For Dark Detonation (and other target summons) it wormholes them to the target. Not sure I'd even care about the visual FX, just to make the existing function not counter to the rest of Warshade powers.

[Redlynne]

42 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

For Gravitic Em, it wormholes them in front of the caster. For Dark Detonation (and other target summons) it wormholes them to the target.

I'd be perfectly happy with that.  It would simply need enough Teleport MAG to be able to move Bosses and we could call it good.

[AlienOne]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

Easy to say/post.

Insert STANDARD CODE RANT here.

 

 

Gotta call BS here. This is simply a diagram to shut down ideas/say something can't happen. Just because something doesn't exist in the game doesn't mean it can't be worked on/added. A diagram like this is something made by someone who is either not innovative or lazy. The best games out there became the best because the programmers actually tried new things instead of saying "oh, it can't be done. That's not how this works" when someone made a suggestion.

 

How do you think Doom: Eternal just blew Doom (an already good game) out of the water? You think just because someone's not a programmer, they can't have a good idea? Would you be one of those Director-types on a movie set that wouldn't take suggestions from actors/camera guys simply because they're not the Director?

 

Sorry if I piss some people off here, but code writers have (in my experience) always been this dense/lazy. Yes. We know. Your job is hard. Now flipping wipe that self-righteous smirk off your face and that Cheeto dust off your fingers and try something new--even if it's hard.

 

Apparently, our particular species was able to land on the moon at one time. Pretty hard to imagine that now with diagrams like that. Oh, and the guy that said "we need to do this by the end of the decade" (JFK) didn't actually know how to land on the moon himself. Not sure if you knew that.

Edited March 22, 2020 by AlienOne

[Microcosm]

26 minutes ago, AlienOne said:

Yes. We know. Your job is hard. Now flipping wipe that self-righteous smirk off your face and that Cheeto dust off your fingers and try something new--even if it's hard.

I'll let you in on a secret if you promise not to tell ANYONE. It's not always that hard... We just always say it is to make sure you really want it enough.

>.>

But seriously, don't tell anyone, they'll ban me from the club.

 

The self-righteous smirks are a requirement though, can't get rid of that. It hides the pain of constant Cheeto dust.

[Redlynne]

29 minutes ago, AlienOne said:

Apparently, our particular species was able to land on the moon at one time. Pretty hard to imagine that now with diagrams like that. Oh, and the guy that said "we need to do this by the end of the decade" (JFK) didn't actually know how to land on the moon himself. Not sure if you knew that.

So now you're comparing what the richest and most powerful NATION STATE of its day, with billions of dollars and millions of man hours at their disposal can do ... and comparing that to what a VOLUNTEER TEAM of people working with 1-2 decades old spaghetti code can do in their (no doubt copious) spare time.

 

Sounds legit ...

32 minutes ago, AlienOne said:

Just because something doesn't exist in the game doesn't mean it can't be worked on/added.

True ... but it won't come as cheaply as saying in a forum post "well *I* think it can be done!" which relies on a certain set of wishful thinking for how easy/simple things are to do.

 

With enough Time, Tools and Tech Manuals you can do almost anything ... even go to the moon.

Now drop one of those items (Time, Tools or Tech Manuals) and see how far you get.

Now try dropping two of them.

Now try doing that without any of the three and see how far you get.

 

Just because it's easy to SAY doesn't mean that it's easy to DO.

It also doesn't mean that because someone says something should be done one way that there are no alternative means of achieving the same ends using game tech/game mechanics that already exists ... as I've already demonstrated.

 

As for your attempt at playing white knight on this ...

[Septipheran]

Redlynne, there is nothing wrong with us discussing ideas for improvements on the forums. If the HC team doesn't have time to get to this, don't think it's a priority, etc.... That is fine. We can still have a productive discussion as a community about changes we'd like to see. I'm sure that if they needed your assistance moderating they would make you a GM.

 

All you've done is come in here, be disruptive, and self-righteously white-knight on behalf of a group of people that everyone in this thread likes and supports. What the team thinks of the suggestions here, whether they're feasible, is up to their discretion.

 

Speaking for myself, I'm happy to play here and appreciate their efforts, whether they make any of this happen or not. I don't understand why you seem to take it as a personal affront that people discuss ideas that they think would be helpful to the game. If you don't plan to productively engage in a discussion, it might be a good rule of thumb to simply not post. I'm sure it took you a while to farm your way to over 2,000 posts and that's fine, but the rest of us wouldn't mind a break from you now and again.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Septipheran

[AlienOne]

20 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

So now you're comparing what the richest and most powerful NATION STATE of its day, with billions of dollars and millions of man hours at their disposal can do ... and comparing that to what a VOLUNTEER TEAM of people working with 1-2 decades old spaghetti code can do in their (no doubt copious) spare time.

 

Sounds legit ...

True ... but it won't come as cheaply as saying in a forum post "well *I* think it can be done!" which relies on a certain set of wishful thinking for how easy/simple things are to do.

 

With enough Time, Tools and Tech Manuals you can do almost anything ... even go to the moon.

Now drop one of those items (Time, Tools or Tech Manuals) and see how far you get.

Now try dropping two of them.

Now try doing that without any of the three and see how far you get.

 

Just because it's easy to SAY doesn't mean that it's easy to DO.

It also doesn't mean that because someone says something should be done one way that there are no alternative means of achieving the same ends using game tech/game mechanics that already exists ... as I've already demonstrated.

 

As for your attempt at playing white knight on this ...

So, you're now stating that a volunteer team of people passionate about a game they love can't accomplish something from scratch? Or they can? Because your first post with the diagram suggested "can't be done" and "shut up if you don't know how to code yourself." Are you backtracking on that position?

 

Check out what the all volunteer team of guys who created and released the game Black Mesa recently did in their free time. And yes, before you start in on how "it's not a good comparison," let's see: 1. Volunteers. Check. 2. Not paid for it while working on it and worked on it in their spare time outside of their normal jobs. Check. 3. Worked on improving an older game that had been out for years and years....from scratch. Check.

 

I'm not so sure the people in charge here would like to be thought so little of. Like I said before, we get it. Making suggestions is easy. Doing the work is hard. That doesn't automatically mean that the suggestions shouldn't me made in the first place. And that's precisely what that diagram suggests.

Edited March 22, 2020 by AlienOne

[Redlynne]

@Septipheran so let me get this straight ... you'd rather get your hopes up following the Underpants Gnomes business model ...

 

 

... rather than using Known Working Game Tech that already exists and can do the job (albeit differently from the way you were thinking).

 

 

 

Good luck with that.

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, AlienOne said:

I'm not so sure the people in charge here would like to be thought so little of.

Hey, I'm not the one who is assuming that creating new game tech whole cloth is going to be cheap, easy and can be done in next to no time without problems or complications or breaking something else.

 

[Microcosm]

We all want the same thing I think, so let's just leave it at that. Otherwise I think this will turn into a flame war and then nobody cares about the suggestions any more.

[NEW DAWN]

18 hours ago, Microcosm said:

Hi all, I've been thinking this over as I've struggled with challenges of Warshades in the current game. We often talk about Peacebringers needing changes, but I honestly think they are better off right now than Warshades. 

 I predicted this day would come. I have WS vs PBs in an excel sheet from years ago, I figured that PBs would be superior, back then PBs were hindered and the hindrance was causing PBs to be considered by some as inferior to WS, one hindrance is less so now without a doubt, thanks mainly to incarnates, another hindrance is less so thanks to other changes ie lightform, IOsets. I'd be happy with all the KB taken out, you could leave it on PBs, and see how that looks, because balance is difficult to achieve. I have 5 concepts on WS alone, you can balance for one concept and then another concept is overkill.

[Hopestar]

I agree with Sept that we could either use new Accurate Resist IOs or just remove Accuracy from Eclipse. It's not hard to hit 3-5 targets depending on build as it stands now so autohit wouldn't make it OP, but rather stop it from screwing you by RNG.

Also I think the best change for the pets would be changing them into spawn 2 untouchable instead of a maximum of 4 that die easily.

[sbloyd]

While bumming around on my Warshade, I thought of something that might *simulate* Knock-Toward - if you could spawn a "knockback" on the other side (from you) of whatever you hit.  No idea how that would work in terms of programming, and it's super kludgey, though.

 

As far as the toggle supression thing, even if the toggles still consume END, this is more about stance-dancing, isn't it?  The inherent annoyance of having to re-engage toggles when you pop out of humanform for a moment or two and then pop back.  A couple seconds of END drain isn't that big a deal.

[Redlynne]

45 minutes ago, sbloyd said:

While bumming around on my Warshade, I thought of something that might *simulate* Knock-Toward - if you could spawn a "knockback" on the other side (from you) of whatever you hit.  No idea how that would work in terms of programming, and it's super kludgey, though.

Talked to Arbiter Hawk about doing just that, in person at the 2012 Player Summit ... and he said they tried it and it didn't work.

I asked Synapse and Black Scorpion (also powers devs) the same question (at dinner) and they ALL agreed that they tried doing exactly what you suggest and ... it didn't work.

 

They even tried spawning multiple pseudo-pets on the other side of the $Target so as to try and "direct" the Knock effects to via additive vectors to "point" the Knock effects in the "correct" direction towards the PC ... and it didn't work.  The reason why it didn't work the way you'd expect is because the results it produced were INCONSISTENT.  Sometimes it worked the way you wanted it to, and other times it did not and resulted in weird edge cases that were quite obviously Wrong™ in how elements behaved.  Part of the problem was just getting the vectors to all work right, especially when you don't have "room" beyond the $Target to "put" a pseudo-pet there (think of a $Target standing next to a wall) and when there's any kind of latency (network and/or server) that results in inconsistent results due to the variables of the environment (and that's before going from 2D vector math into 3D vector math).

 

Ideally speaking, theoretically speaking it OUGHT to work ... but when the professionals tried to do it at Cryptic Studios, it wound up being a dead end that didn't work when they tried it.

 

Could someone else build a better mousetrap to solve this?  Possibly ...

Can they do it without breaking something else?  Probably not ...

Is devoting the necessary Time, Tools and Tech Manuals needed to answer that question a WISE investment of those resources?  Very Likely Not ...

[Microcosm]

2 hours ago, NEW DAWN said:

 I predicted this day would come. I have WS vs PBs in an excel sheet from years ago, I figured that PBs would be superior, back then PBs were hindered and the hindrance was causing PBs to be considered by some as inferior to WS, one hindrance is less so now without a doubt, thanks mainly to incarnates, another hindrance is less so thanks to other changes ie lightform, IOsets. I'd be happy with all the KB taken out, you could leave it on PBs, and see how that looks, because balance is difficult to achieve. I have 5 concepts on WS alone, you can balance for one concept and then another concept is overkill.

The changes to Lightform and Inner Light brought them very close. What really clenched it was the nuke changes that only got proliferated on Homecoming. That brought the gap between PB AoE and Warshade AoE muuuuch closer. They obviously still aren't perfect (hello knockback, IStrike, Pulsar), but they can perform pretty well now.

[SwitchFade]

I'm not opposed to any of this.

 

Toggle suppression keeps getting mentioned, and I no vote it due to end drain, and also people ignore 1 facet: if you are a tri-former, human shields are supefluous because they cannot be slotted at all well enough to be of any use. So the point that we need it so badly because we go human and need to retoggle... Is really a non-issue. That said, if the time investment is low for development, and there's no end drain, I'm ambivalent.

 

Status prot in shields is good, it would help mono and bi formers.

 

Pets aren't bad off. I would welcome a buff.

 

Knock to, no vote.

 

Damage cap increase/buff should be 1 priority.