What's the rule on full fledged rip offs of other IPs? Im seeing a lot of it

[Roughtrade]

I do feel the essential debate is becoming sidetracked by nitpicking.  Anytime someone posts “I know he was mostly right but he got this one word wrong and I have to call him out on it” then the conversation is getting drowned out.

 

So the essential question of “can players make copy cats” is answered as yes they can.  The game engine makes it possible and legally there is murky coverage but it is unlikely to be an issue.

 

The larger question of “should players make copy cats” is still up for debate. 

 

Could it cause problems?  Yes, of course it could.

Will it cause problems?  Very unlikely.

 

Personal Opinion, players should not make up copycats.  Its just lame.  If you want to do an homage to Batman, then steal with a little more finesse.  Marvel has Nighthawk, a rich man using his money to fight crime and The Moon Knight, a rich guy who uses his money and some magic to fight crime.  So even they ripped off an IP but with some style. 

 

But I also feel that most direct rip off characters will eventually get changed by their player.  Eventually you get tired of people making assumptions on your style because of the name you chose.  Or you get tired of seeing thirty five other players with almost the exact same costume and the exact same power set and nearly the exact same name as your character.

 

In the short run, most people do it for a joke or just to see how close they can get to doing something.  In the long run, people tend to want to be unique and so the problem becomes self correcting over time.

 

Not all of them, but most of them.

[Player2]

Let's have a little legal lesson regarding trademark law and why Marvel HAD to sue City of Heroes...

 

Just want to give some props for a very informative post. Copyright and Trademark Law are about as clear as mud at times, and people's fears often give them more power than they have in actuality. So it's very nice to see someone break those down, I'm very familiar with copyright but not so much with trademark infringement.

 

Keep up the good work, guy or gal.

I had some earlier knowledge of Trademark law due to a rush of curiosity when I saw instances of Marvel and DC sort of using each other's stuff in published comics (when not part of official crossovers, such as Marvel's use of Clark Kent).  However, I did a lot of research during the Marvel lawsuit to see just what Marvel was up to and what the actual concerns were for both the gamers and the game owners.

 

You can see some of the highlights of the unofficial Marvel & DC crossovers here:

 

https://io9.gizmodo.com/10-weird-times-marvel-and-dc-unofficially-crossed-over-5872936

[Charistoph]

Actually no.

 

If you do not protect a TRADEMARK you can lose it. You cannot lose a copyright for not protecting it.

Essentially, he is correct.

 

I was just calling him out for making erroneous claims about copyright law, while saying "If you are going to argue copyright law, please show some familiarity with copyright law."

Thank you for proving my point. 

 

If you do not think copyrights can be lost you should talk to the Estates of Tolkien, (who defend theirs) vs Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sax Rhomer and, well, anyone who’s work fell into public domain and had Disney turn it into an animated feature because they did not.

 

Too much relies on how laws are structured at the time they are lost.  Tolkien is far younger than Doyle, which means Doyle's estate has existed longer, and so it is easier to fall in to public domain, no matter if the estate fights or not.  Disney lobbyists are one of the most prolific for the extension of estate copyright laws so they reduce their capacity to lose copyrights on their most iconic original characters.  Then to consider as well, Doyle and Tolkien's estates are governed by UK copyright law and Disney is covered by US copyright law, which is then also pursued through international copyright laws and treaties.

 

Then there are issues of continued use, life of the creator versus the estate of the creator, and it can get really messy.  Big estates like Disney like to keep such laws extremely murky because those provide little loopholes that highly paid lawyers can use to brow beat little guys for infringement at the tiniest hint of notoriety and wealth from their projects.

 

I used to work for Fedex Office (formerly Kinko's), and we got regular trainings on copyright laws, and the general rule was if it was made recently, don't even bother touching it as it simply wasn't worth it.  There were a couple types of exception, but it was rare.  I was just an IT guy, but it was a good rule to keep the centers out of trouble, and thus, the company as a whole.

 

Overall, my own recommendation is keep it at the homage and parody level, and for everyone's sake here, just don't do wholesale recreations.  If you feel another person is doing so, try reporting them, and go playing on from there.  Either a GM will handle it or not, and it's on the groups shoulders to bear at that poin.

[The Fifth Horseman]

If you feel another person is doing so, try reporting them, and go playing on from there.  Either a GM will handle it or not, and it's on the groups shoulders to bear at that poin.

The GMs have not announced any policy regarding such characters. There's no point in flooding them with reports because you think something ought to be made policy when it's not.

[Charistoph]

If you feel another person is doing so, try reporting them, and go playing on from there.  Either a GM will handle it or not, and it's on the groups shoulders to bear at that poin.

The GMs have not announced any policy regarding such characters. There's no point in flooding them with reports because you think something ought to be made policy when it's not.

 

Yet, it is all one can do from the normal player's perspective.  Either they will make an official announcement regarding it, one way or the other, or the player will just drop it when they don't see any action on it.  There is truth to the parable about the squeaky wheel.  If there are enough reports from enough people, a policy will be drawn up, either to enforce copyright defense or not and to drop such requests in to a bin as they arise.

[jubakumbi]

If you feel another person is doing so, try reporting them, and go playing on from there.  Either a GM will handle it or not, and it's on the groups shoulders to bear at that poin.

The GMs have not announced any policy regarding such characters. There's no point in flooding them with reports because you think something ought to be made policy when it's not.

 

This.

We don't need any _more_ Armchair GMs, thanks!

[Sakai]

More negative attention is bad. I would always suggest don't infringe, as that just adds fuel to the fire. Make something g original, and make it easier on the homecoming team.

 

QFT. Why poke the bear?  If you’re stuck on a name, www.thesaurus.com

Now I want to make a lizard man with a book named The Saurus.

 

Too funny.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Yet, it is all one can do from the normal player's perspective.  Either they will make an official announcement regarding it, one way or the other, or the player will just drop it when they don't see any action on it.  There is truth to the parable about the squeaky wheel.  If there are enough reports from enough people, a policy will be drawn up, either to enforce copyright defense or not and to drop such requests in to a bin as they arise.

Actually no. From the normal player's perspective, what you should be doing is campaigning for the change you want through the forums or Discord, not by wasting GMs' time with your armchair GMing. Leave them to take care of players who have actual problems .

[Charistoph]

Yet, it is all one can do from the normal player's perspective.  Either they will make an official announcement regarding it, one way or the other, or the player will just drop it when they don't see any action on it.  There is truth to the parable about the squeaky wheel.  If there are enough reports from enough people, a policy will be drawn up, either to enforce copyright defense or not and to drop such requests in to a bin as they arise.

Actually no. From the normal player's perspective, what you should be doing is campaigning for the change you want through the forums or Discord, not by wasting GMs' time with your armchair GMing. Leave them to take care of players who have actual problems .

 

1. It's not armchair GMing any more than it was during the NCServer days.

 

2. This may be an actual problem IF a certain big-eared company gets wind of it.  I'd rather it NOT be a problem in the first place.

 

3. Squeaky Wheel policy.  Reported problems are fixed problems.  While I am not dismissing the use of the forums, either here or Discord, reporting it in game will actually define if it is an actual issue that needs to be addressed publicly or not as opposed to not having any hard data at all on depending on hearsay.  It's not much of an issue if it's 1 player per server per week, but it could be an issue if you have an SG called Guardians of the Galaxy and they are all built to match the characters from the movies competing against Hydra Corps, and they are all streaming it on Twitch and YouTube, which then attracts the Big Ears' attention and leads to the servers shutting down instead of expensive legal battles.

 

This last part is the main reason for doing the actual reporting, providing a record with which a case can be made or countered regarding the prevalence of this issue.

[The Fifth Horseman]

1. It's not armchair GMing any more than it was during the NCServer days.

It is here, when Homecoming hasn't set a policy. You're trying to dictate their policy (armchair GMing) and you intend to be disruptive until they accede to your demands (extortion).

3. Squeaky Wheel policy.  Reported problems are fixed problems.  While I am not dismissing the use of the forums, either here or Discord, reporting it in game will actually define if it is an actual issue that needs to be addressed publicly or not as opposed to not having any hard data at all on depending on hearsay.

Reporting in game does not mean that you want Homecoming to set an official stance, it means you want the players you report to be penalized for it.

By all means demand a public stance, but don't do by being hostile to other players and a pest to GMs.

 

PS. If you're so concerned about Disney, start the policing with yourself and your own avatar - recoloring an image of Darkwing Duck does not make any less infringing than the original.

[justicebeliever]

Yet, it is all one can do from the normal player's perspective.  Either they will make an official announcement regarding it, one way or the other, or the player will just drop it when they don't see any action on it.  There is truth to the parable about the squeaky wheel.  If there are enough reports from enough people, a policy will be drawn up, either to enforce copyright defense or not and to drop such requests in to a bin as they arise.

Actually no. From the normal player's perspective, what you should be doing is campaigning for the change you want through the forums or Discord, not by wasting GMs' time with your armchair GMing. Leave them to take care of players who have actual problems .

 

I don't think anyone's campaigning specifically to restrict character creation, costumes or names.  I think there is a worry among some part of the server pop that people who are copying other big corporations IP might cause havoc with Homecoming. 

 

I agree, it's not probable that doing so poses any risks.  But not probable doesn't mean impossible - just ask the awesome and vibrant Star Trek fan content community what's possible when they got too much of Paramount's attention.  It's not the same issue of course, but not entirely dissimilar either.  Star Trek Axanar wasn't doing anything completely out of left field - they were taking donations to make content.  So was Star Trek Phase II, Star Trek Renegades, Star Trek of Gods and Men.  But Axanar took it too far, and because of that 90% of the awesome content that was being made cannot be continued.

 

Homecoming is taking donations, so for anyone to say that no money is changing hands is deluding themselves.  Is it going too far?  Probably not.  Could a case be made?  Of course.  That Marvel suit that everyone references was settled out of court, which means that both sides made concessions. It wasn't like NCSoft walked away without cost.  And again, just because a lawsuit from a big corporation is without merits, doesn't mean that is isn't without costs, costs that could shut us down.

 

All that said, I still don't think it's a big issue, but personally I'd err on the side of caution.

 

As for sending something to the GM's - that actually is a good idea, because it'll draw this issue to a close one way or another...Either it is an issue and it get's addressed, or it isn't an issue and the GM's will see the requests and then post a policy one way or the other.  I agree it seems like Homecoming isn't concerned or it would be in their code of conduct.

 

My 4 cents

 

[Charistoph]

1. It's not armchair GMing any more than it was during the NCServer days.

It is here, when Homecoming hasn't set a policy. You're trying to dictate their policy (armchair GMing) and you intend to be disruptive until they accede to your demands (extortion).

3. Squeaky Wheel policy.  Reported problems are fixed problems.  While I am not dismissing the use of the forums, either here or Discord, reporting it in game will actually define if it is an actual issue that needs to be addressed publicly or not as opposed to not having any hard data at all on depending on hearsay.

Reporting in game does not mean that you want Homecoming to set an official stance, it means you want the players you report to be penalized for it.

By all means demand a public stance, but don't do by being hostile to other players and a pest to GMs.

 

A lot will depend on the approach.  A one and done is not armchair GMing.  Repeated and constant reports for the same thing would be filed under that.  Keep in mind that this is only if you find it a direct concern.

 

PS. If you're so concerned about Disney, start the policing with yourself and your own avatar - recoloring an image of Darkwing Duck does not make any less infringing than the original.

 

It's not a recolored image of Darkwing Duck.  It is related to the Darkwing Duck franchise, though.  Learn your supervillains, jeez.  :P

 

Nor am I seeking to make anything resembling profit off of it or a service.  Once I manage to get a good screenshot of my main, I will replace it.  End of the school year is a busy time for me right now.

[Scow2]

It's not a recolored image of Darkwing Duck.  It is related to the Darkwing Duck franchise, though.  Learn your supervillains, jeez.

 

Nor am I seeking to make anything resembling profit off of it or a service.  Once I manage to get a good screenshot of my main, I will replace it.  End of the school year is a busy time for me right now.

It's still a violation of Disney's IP.

[Zolgar]

Actually no.

 

If you do not protect a TRADEMARK you can lose it. You cannot lose a copyright for not protecting it.

Essentially, he is correct.

 

I was just calling him out for making erroneous claims about copyright law, while saying "If you are going to argue copyright law, please show some familiarity with copyright law."

Thank you for proving my point. 

 

If you do not think copyrights can be lost you should talk to the Estates of Tolkien, (who defend theirs) vs Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sax Rhomer and, well, anyone who’s work fell into public domain and had Disney turn it into an animated feature because they did not.

 

Copyright expires 70 years after the death of the creator, or if that is unknown, 90 years after publication/120 years after creation. This is different from "if you don't protect it, you lose it." and requires a LOT of clout to fight. (I believe though Disney has been finding ways to fight it for fear of ever losing copyright on anything they own)

 

In all my research regarding the matter (that is specifically researching copyright law) I have not found anything which indicates or states that if you do not protect your copyright, it becomes public domain. While trademark has that, trademark is a different beast.

 

Were there such a precedent within copyright, then guess who is public domain now:

Every Star Wars character

Every Disney character

Every Marvel character

Every DC character

Every anime character

 

Why? Fan art, my friend, fan art. If they could lose their copyright by not protecting it, they would have needed to go Scorched Earth on basically every convention in the world. Next time you're at an anime/comic convention, see how many people are selling fan art of basically every big IP out there.

 

If I am wrong, please provide resources to support your claims. I would be very interested to see them as, while I am no lawyer, copyright law is something that I find interesting and like to stay informed on.

[Charistoph]

It's not a recolored image of Darkwing Duck.  It is related to the Darkwing Duck franchise, though.  Learn your supervillains, jeez.

 

Nor am I seeking to make anything resembling profit off of it or a service.  Once I manage to get a good screenshot of my main, I will replace it.  End of the school year is a busy time for me right now.

It's still a violation of Disney's IP.

 

Nope.  It is a picture of a character from Disney's IP, true.  Violation tends to be a bit more gray as a Disney employee didn't actually create this specific picture, and it is not for profited use.

[Scow2]

It's not a recolored image of Darkwing Duck.  It is related to the Darkwing Duck franchise, though.  Learn your supervillains, jeez.

 

Nor am I seeking to make anything resembling profit off of it or a service.  Once I manage to get a good screenshot of my main, I will replace it.  End of the school year is a busy time for me right now.

It's still a violation of Disney's IP.

 

Nope.  It is a picture of a character from Disney's IP, true.  Violation tends to be a bit more gray as a Disney employee didn't actually create this specific picture, and it is not for profited use.

... It's still a violation of Disney's IP. Someone created the picture in the likeness of a Disney character, much as players can create costumes in the likeness of Marvel superheroes in this game, and it's not being used for any of the exceptions used under Fair Use (criticism, news reporting, teaching, and research)

[Burnt Toast]

Ignore all these internet "lawyers" - do what you want. If/when it becomes an issue then Homecoming will let the players know.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Nope.  It is a picture of a character from Disney's IP, true.  Violation tends to be a bit more gray as a Disney employee didn't actually create this specific picture, and it is not for profited use.

Then if your reasoning was valid, you've been advocating for people to report players who by your own logic should not be penalized in the first place, just like you weren't getting for that avatar. Hmm. Sounds like wasting GMs time to me still.

 

However, you're actually wrong. A violation still occurs regardless of who created the depiction and regardless of whether the use was commercial. Since you opted to keep the avatar and tried to rationalize it, you've admitted that you have no commitment to practice what you preach.

 

And again... you want a public stance, then ask for it. Don't be a dick about it - and wasting GMs time with whining, persecution of players who aren't violating Homecoming's current policy and advocating for other players to engage in such persecution definitely fall under that umbrella.

[jubakumbi]

 

1. It's not armchair GMing any more than it was during the NCServer days.

 

2. This may be an actual problem IF a certain big-eared company gets wind of it.  I'd rather it NOT be a problem in the first place.

 

3. Squeaky Wheel policy.  Reported problems are fixed problems.  While I am not dismissing the use of the forums, either here or Discord, reporting it in game will actually define if it is an actual issue that needs to be addressed publicly or not as opposed to not having any hard data at all on depending on hearsay.  It's not much of an issue if it's 1 player per server per week, but it could be an issue if you have an SG called Guardians of the Galaxy and they are all built to match the characters from the movies competing against Hydra Corps, and they are all streaming it on Twitch and YouTube, which then attracts the Big Ears' attention and leads to the servers shutting down instead of expensive legal battles.

 

This last part is the main reason for doing the actual reporting, providing a record with which a case can be made or countered regarding the prevalence of this issue.

 

This is complete and total dribble.

 

1 - This is not a retail launch, the Volonteers are not here to deal with your FUD, it is not on the list of things these people have asked us to report. PERIOD.

2 - We made Newsweek. This is server cluster is not hiding form ANYONE.

3 - FUD. Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. Full FUD.  You are looking for the sky to fall without any actual valid evidence, laws, nothing. Ths only corporate entities that care about this already know about ti. They will or will not do what thier lawyers tell them to do and it will not revolve around player made character content, it is not a copyright violation, becaus no one is claiming copyright.

Play how you like, until the Homcoming Staff say therwise and keep you Armchair GM-CEO-Rules-Lawyering to yourself.

Poster here with out a GM tag DO NOT speak for the staff or the server cluster!

[justicebeliever]

Nope.  It is a picture of a character from Disney's IP, true.  Violation tends to be a bit more gray as a Disney employee didn't actually create this specific picture, and it is not for profited use.

Then if your reasoning was valid, you've been advocating for people to report players who by your own logic should not be penalized in the first place, just like you weren't getting for that avatar. Hmm. Sounds like wasting GMs time to me still.

 

However, you're actually wrong. A violation still occurs regardless of who created the depiction and regardless of whether the use was commercial. Since you opted to keep the avatar and tried to rationalize it, you've admitted that you have no commitment to practice what you preach.

 

And again... you want a public stance, then ask for it. Don't be a dick about it - and wasting GMs time with whining, persecution of players who aren't violating Homecoming's current policy and advocating for other players to engage in such persecution definitely fall under that umbrella.

 

Actually there is a fair use doctrine for copyright, and it does matter if the use is commercial or not.  Can't see how a forum avatar violates fair use, so it's fine under the law. 

 

As for practicing what you preach - I very often drive 5 miles over the speed limit, but I vehemently think driving more than 15-20 miles is going too far.  Am I a hypocrite?  No! (Well, I am - but not because of this).  My fear is safety and it's pretty clear that driving 15-20 miles over the limit is ridiculously more unsafe than driving 5 miles.  Both are technically illegal, but one is worse than the other.

 

As mentioned before, no one wants to persecute those who are copying other people's IP.  They are just worried someone else's behavior will impact everyone's ability to play here.  It would be nice if Homecoming spoke out on this, and flagging it for the GM's is a way of asking for a public stance.

 

 

1. It's not armchair GMing any more than it was during the NCServer days.

 

2. This may be an actual problem IF a certain big-eared company gets wind of it.  I'd rather it NOT be a problem in the first place.

 

3. Squeaky Wheel policy.  Reported problems are fixed problems.  While I am not dismissing the use of the forums, either here or Discord, reporting it in game will actually define if it is an actual issue that needs to be addressed publicly or not as opposed to not having any hard data at all on depending on hearsay.  It's not much of an issue if it's 1 player per server per week, but it could be an issue if you have an SG called Guardians of the Galaxy and they are all built to match the characters from the movies competing against Hydra Corps, and they are all streaming it on Twitch and YouTube, which then attracts the Big Ears' attention and leads to the servers shutting down instead of expensive legal battles.

 

This last part is the main reason for doing the actual reporting, providing a record with which a case can be made or countered regarding the prevalence of this issue.

 

This is complete and total dribble.

 

1 - This is not a retail launch, the Volonteers are not here to deal with your FUD, it is not on the list of things these people have asked us to report. PERIOD.

2 - We made Newsweek. This is server cluster is not hiding form ANYONE.

3 - FUD. Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. Full FUD.  You are looking for the sky to fall without any actual valid evidence, laws, nothing. Ths only corporate entities that care about this already know about ti. They will or will not do what thier lawyers tell them to do and it will not revolve around player made character content, it is not a copyright violation, becaus no one is claiming copyright.

Play how you like, until the Homcoming Staff say therwise and keep you Armchair GM-CEO-Rules-Lawyering to yourself.

Poster here with out a GM tag DO NOT speak for the staff or the server cluster!

 

1.) Anyone who volunteered on this project and doesn't think the entire community has some fear, uncertainty and doubt is completely deluded.  Of course the volunteers are here to deal with FUD.  I'm sure they don't want to, but this whole project is such a grey area that there is no way around it and I'm sure all the volunteers are completely aware

 

3.) "Actual valid evidence, laws, nothing"?  There is lots of evidence and laws...Sure Disney, WB, NCSoft all know about this.  It may or may not be a copyright violation (you don't have to "claim" copyright for it to be a violation, copyright and trademark are 2 different things).  It may or may not matter (I personally think NCSoft is the player to watch out for, not DC or Marvel).  But caution isn't a bad thing.  It should be discussed, not shamed (that's actually how you help with FUD - freedom to share ideas without being personally attacked.  Personally attacking only increases FUD). 

 

Some people here seem very worried about the GM's time - GM's are big boys and girls - if they are getting overwhelmed with silliness, they know how to communicate it. 

 

My final 6 cents - this game was ALL about playing original heroes, not copying other people's IP.  That is what made this game great - the original heroes, designs and thoughts that people came up with.  I personally am not going to call out any players for their toons name or appearance, but I understand the concerns and think people should be free to ask here (like the OP did) and have a discussion. 

[jubakumbi]

3.) "Actual valid evidence, laws, nothing"?  There is lots of evidence and laws...Sure Disney, WB, NCSoft all know about this.  It may or may not be a copyright violation (you don't have to "claim" copyright for it to be a violation, copyright and trademark are 2 different things).  It may or may not matter (I personally think NCSoft is the player to watch out for, not DC or Marvel).  But caution isn't a bad thing.  It should be discussed, not shamed (that's actually how you help with FUD - freedom to share ideas without being personally attacked.  Personally attacking only increases FUD). 

 

...

 

I personally am not going to call out any players for their toons name or appearance, but I understand the concerns and think people should be free to ask here (like the OP did) and have a discussion.

 

Show me a legal precendent where making a character in a game running on a community server like this has been litigated.

I am well aware that copyright and trademark are different animals.

 

Just being scared of a possible lawsuit is just FUD.

The outlook is purely based in a fear of the unknown IMO.

 

In many countries, you can sue anyone for anything and it is validated in the courts.

So, where is there a precedent for this situation?

I would love to find one, really, as it would give me more valid data.

Everything else is anecdotal, IMO.

 

I totaly agree the discussion is valid and that many people want definitive answers no one can actualy give them - thus the issure, fear of the unknown and the conflating of vague ideas into a theory that we must all 'hide under the radar'.

 

I also think that attacking the words people post is not the same as attacking the person, even though plenty of people think it's the same thing and need to learn the difference, IMO.

Sharing an idea on the Internet involves encountering people that disagree, sometimes passionately.

Ripping into a bad idea is not the same thing as ripping into a person.

 

:)

[justicebeliever]

3.) "Actual valid evidence, laws, nothing"?  There is lots of evidence and laws...Sure Disney, WB, NCSoft all know about this.  It may or may not be a copyright violation (you don't have to "claim" copyright for it to be a violation, copyright and trademark are 2 different things).  It may or may not matter (I personally think NCSoft is the player to watch out for, not DC or Marvel).  But caution isn't a bad thing.  It should be discussed, not shamed (that's actually how you help with FUD - freedom to share ideas without being personally attacked.  Personally attacking only increases FUD). 

 

...

 

I personally am not going to call out any players for their toons name or appearance, but I understand the concerns and think people should be free to ask here (like the OP did) and have a discussion.

 

Show me a legal precendent where making a character in a game running on a community server like this has been litigated.

I am well aware that copyright and trademark are different animals.

 

Just being scared of a possible lawsuit is just FUD.

The outlook is purely based in a fear of the unknown IMO.

 

In many countries, you can sue anyone for anything and it is validated in the courts.

So, where is there a precedent for this situation?

I would love to find one, really, as it would give me more valid data.

Everything else is anecdotal, IMO.

 

I totaly agree the discussion is valid and that many people want definitive answers no one can actualy give them - thus the issure, fear of the unknown and the conflating of vague ideas into a theory that we must all 'hide under the radar'.

 

I also think that attacking the words people post is not the same as attacking the person, even though plenty of people think it's the same thing and need to learn the difference, IMO.

Sharing an idea on the Internet involves encountering people that disagree, sometimes passionately.

Ripping into a bad idea is not the same thing as ripping into a person.

 

:)

 

I don't have a legal precedent where making an IP rip-off on ripped-off source code on a community server accepting donations is in play.  I've said before, there are a lot of entities who don't need legal standing that can still effectively shut this down just due to the costs of fighting a legal battle would incur.  Given that we are NOT on any legal footing here - not sure why we think people's fears are unfounded?  Realistic?  Probably not.  But still founded on real issues...

 

And new precedent appears in the courts weekly, if not daily - so saying it hasn't happened before is not an argument for saying it won't happen.  Again - is it likely to happen?  Probably not.

 

Not a legal precedent, but the kind I am actually worried about happened to the Star Trek fan community who were making awesome fan productions.  Until one community pushed too far (they didn't do anything that other groups hadn't done - just went too far in soliciting funds).  Then all communities paid a price.  If you can't see any similarities, then I don't have much else for you.

 

As for attacking players vs words - Distinction without much difference in the forums - If we feel the need to attack at all it's going to feel personal.  It's in the mindset.  Can we discuss the words?  Can we discuss player actions?  It seems like people express a different view, and they are told in bold type to stop being an "Armchair GM-CEO-Rules-Lawyer".  That's not a discussion of words, that's an attack on another player.

 

Again - I'm not feeling the need to report anyone.  It's not my play style to directly copy another person's IP, but I'm not going to try and stop anyone unless I become more certain that doing so puts the entire community at risk.  I currently don't have enough information to feel definitive one way or another.

[Bardweiser]

Back in 2004, Marvel did sue Cryptic Studios over City of Heroes since it was possible to create a character resembling their IP in the character creator.  From what I recall, Marvel lost.

.

That aside, it's up to the Homecoming team if they want to enforce players creating homages or even outright ripoff of established characters from Marvel, DC, etc.  Personally, I don't see much reason to given that this whole game is currently unauthorized anyway and carries its own risks.

 

The reason Marvel did not win is because CoH's lawyer proved that they players that had created Marvel IP and play in game were Marvel employees. CoH had a reporting process in place and players were very proactive in self-policing because they did not want to see a repeat. The lawyer, by the way got a standing ovation at HeroCon.

 

As for the current Overlords, I don't think they've said anything, but just because this is not an authorized server doesn't mean Marvel/DC/etc won't swing a hammer.

 

Personally, I think it best to err on the side of caution and avoid characters that outright copy someone's IP.

 

I remember the case and that Marvel lost, did not know the players making the Marvel characters were Marvel employees.  There's no better lulz than a self-defeating lulz.

 

I've always preferred making my own characters rather than re-making those of others, but I understand it.  You can't swing a dead cat in DC Universe Online without seeing a Captain America, Hulk, Deadpool or Jean Grey/Phoenix clone, it wasn't much different back in the early days of CoH.  Here's just a few examples from DCUO:

 

 

 

 

From what I understand they are considered homages by fans (like an animated fan art) and thus get around the IP issue.  As long as money isn't being made specifically off of their likenesses I don't see this going to court again.

[jubakumbi]

Not a legal precedent, but the kind I am actually worried about happened to the Star Trek fan community who were making awesome fan productions.  Until one community pushed too far (they didn't do anything that other groups hadn't done - just went too far in soliciting funds).  Then all communities paid a price.  If you can't see any similarities, then I don't have much else for you.

 

As for attacking players vs words - Distinction without much difference in the forums - If we feel the need to attack at all it's going to feel personal.  It's in the mindset.  Can we discuss the words?  Can we discuss player actions?  It seems like people express a different view, and they are told in bold type to stop being an "Armchair GM-CEO-Rules-Lawyer".  That's not a discussion of words, that's an attack on another player.

 

That is my point, all we have is fear of the unknown.

If/When 'someone in the community crosses the worng line', fear about having created characters as close to existing IPs as possible in-game, IMO, will no bearing on that, because it will be a legal line somewhere in the $ stream.

So why generate FUD about something when there is no reason to do so, why tell people to become Armchair Sheriffs?

Sure, similarities exist, but this entire thread barely touches on the _real_ 9000 gorilla in the room, as you have stated, that poses an _actual_ threat with precedents. :)

 

Saying that people are acting like/not acting like Armchair GMs is not a personal attack, at all, from my PoV.

It's simply defining outlooks and points of view, IMO.

Are the words 'harsh and blunt' and 'inflammatory' - Yes.

Some people don't like blunt and want everyone to 'play nice'.

I don't subscribe to that newletter, it allows too many bad actors to get away with stuff.

I choose to inject the passion I have for these things into my prose.

[justicebeliever]

That is my point, all we have is fear of the unknown.

If/When 'someone in the community crosses the worng line', fear about having created characters as close to existing IPs as possible in-game, IMO, will no bearing on that, because it will be a legal line somewhere in the $ stream.

So why generate FUD about something when there is no reason to do so, why tell people to become Armchair Sheriffs?

Sure, similarities exist, but this entire thread barely touches on the _real_ 9000 gorilla in the room, as you have stated, that poses an _actual_ threat with precedents. :)

 

Saying that people are acting like/not acting like Armchair GMs is not a personal attack, at all, from my PoV.

It's simply defining outlooks and points of view, IMO.

Are the words 'harsh and blunt' and 'inflammatory' - Yes.

Some people don't like blunt and want everyone to 'play nice'.

I don't subscribe to that newletter, it allows too many bad actors to get away with stuff.

I choose to inject the passion I have for these things into my prose.

 

Because the way to remove FUD is to engage in meaningful discussions.  People should post their concerns, and the community would ideally gently address the concern and all parties move on - the original poster, the responder, and the much larger part of the community that reads the post, share the same concerns and see a community working together.

 

No one has said in this discussion that they advocate having the GM's police this process.  It was suggested by a few people, that if someone has concerns, they should go to the GM for an official answer.  I'm truly confused why anyone thinks that's a bad idea?  You and I don't have an official policy, nor do we have the ability to create one.  Seems the like GM's are a good starting place.  So no Armchair Sheriff's or Armchair GM's, but people with questions being told to shut up and not say anything.  If you tell me NOT to talk to someone about something, that will only EVER increase my FUD.  So where's the harm in talking to a GM?

 

As for personal attacks -

When you say - stop being or acting like something they are not trying to do - that's a personal attack.  It may be an attack with passion, but it's still directed to someone's personal being.  And as you say the words are 'inflammatory', I guess I wonder why anyone would think it is anything but a personal attack, since the purpose is to just get a rise out of someone.  I guess I subscribe to the newsletter where I do want people to play nice - game is a lot more fun when it's nice, isn't it?  I don't think I've seen really "bad" actors on this thread trying to get away with stuff.  Passion is awesome, don't lose it.  But determine what your passion is - is it smacking people down on threads?  I hope not.  Is it swaying minds?  If so, unless it's brainwashing, I've almost never heard of people's minds being swayed by attacks, inflammatory, or harsh words.

 

I think I'm up to a dime's worth now.