What's the rule on full fledged rip offs of other IPs? Im seeing a lot of it

[jubakumbi]

No one has said in this discussion that they advocate having the GM's police this process.  It was suggested by a few people, that if someone has concerns, they should go to the GM for an official answer. 

As for personal attacks -

When you say - stop being or acting like something they are not trying to do - that's a personal attack.  It may be an attack with passion, but it's still directed to someone's personal being.  And as you say the words are 'inflammatory', I guess I wonder why anyone would think it is anything but a personal attack, since the purpose is to just get a rise out of someone.  I guess I subscribe to the newsletter where I do want people to play nice - game is a lot more fun when it's nice, isn't it?  I don't think I've seen really "bad" actors on this thread trying to get away with stuff.  Passion is awesome, don't lose it.  But determine what your passion is - is it smacking people down on threads?  I hope not.  Is it swaying minds?  If so, unless it's brainwashing, I've almost never heard of people's minds being swayed by attacks, inflammatory, or harsh words.

 

I think I'm up to a dime's worth now.

 

One poster here specifically tried to get players to report the 'IP violations'.

Are you saying that poster was just asking them to ask about each one, rather than report?

Still a burden those GMs did not ask for in the first place, still wastes resources, IMO.

 

As for my passion and people being offended by my words and tone - you approach this like I am some teenager with little experience.

Been debating, often professionally, for about 35 years now.

My style works for me and gets real results.

I learned a long time ago that going through life without making anyone mad gets very little accomplished in the real world. :)

 

The bad actoars is a reference to RL without using the words that starts with P and ends with everyone yelling.

AKA - Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

 

I don't limit myself to 'threads' like this, using ech one as some sort of sacrosant court case or something either.

There is an effort all around this game, always has been, by people who try to tell others how to have fun and I fight them where I see them.

 

We all live in our own delusions. This is a Zen philosphy, for example, that is taken as 'inflammatory' from me all the time, because people choose to see it that way. :)

[justicebeliever]

As for my passion and people being offended by my words and tone - you approach this like I am some teenager with little experience.

Been debating, often professionally, for about 35 years now.

My style works for me and gets real results.

I learned a long time ago that going through life without making anyone mad gets very little accomplished in the real world. :)

 

The bad actoars is a reference to RL without using the words that starts with P and ends with everyone yelling.

AKA - Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

 

I don't limit myself to 'threads' like this, using ech one as some sort of sacrosant court case or something either.

There is an effort all around this game, always has been, by people who try to tell others how to have fun and I fight them where I see them.

 

We all live in our own delusions. This is a Zen philosphy, for example, that is taken as 'inflammatory' from me all the time, because people choose to see it that way. :)

 

Again, I guess it depends on what your goal is.  I thought, rightfully so, that is was helping to reduce the amount of fear and uncertainty in the community.  Getting people enraged probably won't accomplish that, real world or not.  Facts and Confidence Boosting are the best tools.  And this isn't the real world - this is a gaming community.

 

However, I am truly and genuinely interested in the Professional Debating experience...How does one do that?  It sounds fascinating.  If you don't mind posting here or in a short PM how that works, I really would be interested in hearing more.  Genuinely curious - not trying to debate about, just sounded fascinating...

[_NOPE_]

However, I am truly and genuinely interested in the Professional Debating experience...How does one do that?  It sounds fascinating.  If you don't mind posting here or in a short PM how that works, I really would be interested in hearing more.  Genuinely curious - not trying to debate about, just sounded fascinating...

 

You work in politics. That's how. Or at a university as a Philosophy professor.

[justicebeliever]

Politics was my first thought as well.  A great many people in politics use inflammatory speech to generate change.  But I am really curious if there was another example out there...

[GM Tempest]

Please keep things civil here, folks. Mudslinging gets no one anywhere.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Actually there is a fair use doctrine for copyright, and it does matter if the use is commercial or not.

Merely being non-commercial does not automatically make it fair use, it's only a fraction of one of several criteria.

That criterion also considers whether the work in question is transformative, educational or a parody - and this use does not meet any of the three.

and flagging it for the GM's is a way of asking for a public stance.

A report is not a question or a request for clarification, it's an explicit demand for punitive measures.

Accept that and work from there.

As mentioned before, no one wants to persecute those who are copying other people's IP.

Re-read the earlier posts in the thread. Mass demands for institution of punitive measures against other users when Homecoming's current policies do not support such measures taken. That is a form of persecution.

[Charistoph]

One poster here specifically tried to get players to report the 'IP violations'.

Are you saying that poster was just asking them to ask about each one, rather than report?

Still a burden those GMs did not ask for in the first place, still wastes resources, IMO.

 

GMs' burdens are granted by server controllers and by the players.  By becoming a GM, you voluntarily ask for those burdens to be placed upon you.  By applying to be a janitor, you are voluntarily asking to clean up other people's crap, and it's no different from being a GM (the scat is just more informational than literal).

 

It was a suggestion to those who felt that there was a significant concern over a situation.  This is normal practice for a MMORPG, whether it is on a private server or a commercial one AND part of the GM's job that they asked for (no one is forced to be a GM).  It also adds one more thing which I noted later, a record.  You know who loves records?  Bureaucracies and lawyers.

 

You seem to be more concerned about the emotional weight of a discussion here than ever considering the practical considerations.  This leads to a greater waste of resources than following a protocol which is a standard of the industry (both private and commercial).

 

and flagging it for the GM's is a way of asking for a public stance.

A report is not a question or a request for clarification, it's an explicit demand for punitive measures.

Accept that and work from there.

 

Nope.  A report is a request for an investigation.  If punitive measures are needed, then they will be called in to play.  Accept that and work from there.

 

Now, it's quite possible that you are projecting because you only report someone when you want punitive measures to be made against a person, but that's not the case with everyone.

[Nightmarer]

Well, all in all, ripping off names from other IP's at least is way better than some names such as "Firekin","Firerad", "Likeaboss" or "Damage Dealer" among others

[jubakumbi]

However, I am truly and genuinely interested in the Professional Debating experience...How does one do that?  It sounds fascinating.  If you don't mind posting here or in a short PM how that works, I really would be interested in hearing more.  Genuinely curious - not trying to debate about, just sounded fascinating...

 

tldr;

The Software Business. Money in the corporate world is no less political and safer than Politics. :)

 

Got long winded, I happen to think debate skills are really important for success. :)

 

A meeting to determine what goes into a new product, for example, is a professional debate.

One must sway the decision makers into choosing the things your team wants/thinks is right/knows will sell, vs other competing interests, like developers who would rather not be bothered to figure it out...

 

But take the same thing into any business situation with competing interests, especially sales.

For years, I have been the person to call 'BS' when people have no data, no real evidence, or, in some cases, no real product just vaporware and promises.

I am deployed these days to specifically 'interface' with prospect IT staff and debate the validity of our solution with thier internal staff and against other vendors at the same time.

 

Why do I get sent?

Results.

My bosses have had to tell new employees for years not to even try and argue with me, they don't.

 

What always wins for me?

"Show me".

 

If there is not a precendent, if there is no 'valid use case', etc., then it becomes very difficult for a point of view or idea to gain validation.

 

I am always open to new data during these things as well.

New data changes things.

Holding on to a PoV when presented with new data that chnages things, IMO, is a losing stratetgy that appeals only to the human base fear of change, even if that change is just making a better choice.

In my world, anecdotal information is not data, along with vague fears and tradition. :)

 

Now, I choose to take those same skills and apply them to my life so my wife and I can can live well and to stand up and yell when I see, on game forums, what I think is FUD, because it's in my blood to fight it, I dunno why, I've looked.

I choose these avenues because I will not subject my wife to today's Politics as a spouse, nor do I want to get dead.

 

FUD is FUD and it lies in all of our hearts and minds, because we have to have it stay alive in the jungle.

Does not mean it cannot be challenged and drug out into the light and exposed, thus rendering it ineffective.

 

PS: Was given the title Misinformation Eradicator on my badge for client meetings...

[subbacultchas]

Actually there is a fair use doctrine for copyright, and it does matter if the use is commercial or not.

Merely being non-commercial does not automatically make it fair use, it's only a fraction of one of several criteria.

That criterion also considers whether the work in question is transformative, educational or a parody - and this use does not meet any of the three.

Truth. Fair Use usually boiled down by well-meaning people into something that it actually isn't. What it is, truthfully, is more of a best practices in regard to copyright than a strict legality/litigation check. We deal with copyright constantly as a university librarian. While we often have exemptions for a lot of things under the non-profit educational angle, there are still times we choose to not do things covered under fair use. For instance, digitizing VHS/DVD video for a class, even though we can put it behind BB or Canvas and only accessible by the particular class. Why? Because citing "fair use" as a defense just doesn't stop arguments in court like many think it does. Never assume something is fair use and that's the end of it, that's how you eventually find yourself operating outside of it and in court.  Just my two cents.

[subbacultchas]

Also I hate the US system of copyright laws and how far it has run afield of what it was intended to be, a system that metered out when things would enter public domain for the enrichment of people and society as a whole. Instead it's this bloated corpse of thing that makes sure copyright holders, their children and estates, can profit long beyond their lifetimes and often stifles innovation in science and medical sciences, as well as overall in information flow (re: Zika virus and academic journals). 

 

Burn it down, I say in my off-time when I'm not working within it as I must.

[subbacultchas]

You work in politics. That's how. Or at a university as a Philosophy professor.

We've got some hard and fast rules here on dealing with tough interactions users, most of which are common from customer service.

Be nice, but firm.

Kill them with kindness.

Don't get drawn into arguments.

Never say they are flat wrong, ask them to check again (useful for lost items).

 

But none of them stand out as endemic to universities as this:

Never ever get drawn into arguments with phil professors. Drop your information, and then walk away and do not respond to email arguments. You may think you are on the side of the righteous, but I promise you that nobody is as prepared to rip your situation apart and present it back to you as Joe from the Humanities department. Just don't do it.

 

[_NOPE_]

You work in politics. That's how. Or at a university as a Philosophy professor.

We've got some hard and fast rules here on dealing with tough interactions users, most of which are common from customer service.

Be nice, but firm.

Kill them with kindness.

Don't get drawn into arguments.

Never say they are flat wrong, ask them to check again (useful for lost items).

 

But none of them stand out as endemic to universities as this:

Never ever get drawn into arguments with phil professors. Drop your information, and then walk away and do not respond to email arguments. You may think you are on the side of the righteous, but I promise you that nobody is as prepared to rip your situation apart and present it back to you as Joe from the Humanities department. Just don't do it.

 

[jubakumbi]

Also I hate the US system of copyright laws and how far it has run afield of what it was intended to be, a system that metered out when things would enter public domain for the enrichment of people and society as a whole. Instead it's this bloated corpse of thing that makes sure copyright holders, their children and estates, can profit long beyond their lifetimes and often stifles innovation in science and medical sciences, as well as overall in information flow (re: Zika virus and academic journals). 

 

Burn it down, I say in my off-time when I'm not working within it as I must.

 

And software patents too, right there with you!

[subbacultchas]

Also I hate the US system of copyright laws and how far it has run afield of what it was intended to be, a system that metered out when things would enter public domain for the enrichment of people and society as a whole. Instead it's this bloated corpse of thing that makes sure copyright holders, their children and estates, can profit long beyond their lifetimes and often stifles innovation in science and medical sciences, as well as overall in information flow (re: Zika virus and academic journals). 

 

Burn it down, I say in my off-time when I'm not working within it as I must.

 

And software patents too, right there with you!

 

Definitely. There's got to be a happy medium between society's best interest and intellectual property ownership. It ain't this.

[Charistoph]

Also I hate the US system of copyright laws and how far it has run afield of what it was intended to be, a system that metered out when things would enter public domain for the enrichment of people and society as a whole. Instead it's this bloated corpse of thing that makes sure copyright holders, their children and estates, can profit long beyond their lifetimes and often stifles innovation in science and medical sciences, as well as overall in information flow (re: Zika virus and academic journals). 

 

Burn it down, I say in my off-time when I'm not working within it as I must.

 

And software patents too, right there with you!

 

Definitely. There's got to be a happy medium between society's best interest and intellectual property ownership. It ain't this.

 

Thank your local Congressman.

[Rokkeb]

I have Rockit Raccoon and Gwoot (notice the altered spellings) because I didn't want to use the exact names, partially for legal reasons, but also because I didn't want to be "that guy".

Am I guilty too?

 

Barely changing the spelling but basically having the same character keeps you in the territory of "that guy" it's like making a wolverine clone and naming it badger, or weapon y. We all know exactly what you're doing..

[Rokkeb]

Folks (read: the GMs) should keep in mind that in many cases, you're not talking about Marvel's attorneys; you're talking about Disney's. And they are infinitely more litigious and resourceful than Marvel could ever hope to be.

 

Disney once famously C&D'd a daycare with a homemade Mickey Mouse mural. So yeah.

 

Also tried to sue a 12 year old girl for multiple millions of dollars in the early days of YouTube for having one of the songs from Lion King soundtrack playing in the back ground of her VLOG video IIRC. Something stupid like that anyway.

[jubakumbi]

The Disney and daycare thing I knew about previously and can find references with details, most of which are very black and white about making money off of the images.

 

I cannot find anything about a 12 y/o girl on YouTube, reference?

Re-broadcasting and music have all sorts of restrictions.

 

I am still not seeing a clear path here beyond, "They have done wild and crazy things in the past."

If that's all we are going to go on, then I can come up with all kinds of wild scenarios! :)

 

Disney once famously C&D'd a daycare with a homemade Mickey Mouse mural. So yeah.

 

Also tried to sue a 12 year old girl for multiple millions of dollars in the early days of YouTube for having one of the songs from Lion King soundtrack playing in the back ground of her VLOG video IIRC. Something stupid like that anyway.

[Scow2]

Also I hate the US system of copyright laws and how far it has run afield of what it was intended to be, a system that metered out when things would enter public domain for the enrichment of people and society as a whole. Instead it's this bloated corpse of thing that makes sure copyright holders, their children and estates, can profit long beyond their lifetimes and often stifles innovation in science and medical sciences, as well as overall in information flow (re: Zika virus and academic journals). 

 

Burn it down, I say in my off-time when I'm not working within it as I must.

Frankly, I wish a franchise would enter Public Domain 2-5 years after going Out of Publication or the last installment in a franchise. Let the Disney corporation keep its mouse. Let City of Heroes fly free to the world.

[Rokkeb]

I cannot find anything about a 12 y/o girl on YouTube, reference?

Re-broadcasting and music have all sorts of restrictions.

 

All I can remember of it was it was back in the days of Napster, I can't even remember if it was around the time of the Metallica thing, or before or after. And for all I know it was just an urban legend going around middle schools, warning kids not to pirate / steal music.

 

I can just vividly remember my friends and I talking about the 12 year old getting sued for millions by Disney because of the lion king sound track. Can't remember if I was in middle school, or high school by that point.

[EmeraldFox]

to me copying a ip for your hero is nothing but lazyness.  A lot of us worked hard on makeing our charecter.  Backstory costume, and about a lot of other things.  Actions like this from lazy players that want to go like "Oh look its wolverine lets make our own version that looks like him" Could have us end up in a lot of trouble.  Sure someone in this forum post say that for now NC soft are letting us fly under the radar but maybe theres a reason for that. I know when i say conspiracy thery here when i say this but what if there doing it on purpose?  I mean PR wise of they suddenly shut us down itll make them look bad but if the like's of marvel and DC suddenly;y wade in with lawsuits and ban hammers they'll be doing the job for them and there hands stay clean.

 

I love city of heroes and was more than thrilled when i saw the rouge servers go up and would hate to see it dissaper again because of something like this

 

 

[dmaker]

I don't understand why people get so concerned about this. Do you harangue every Batman or Deadpool you see on Halloween? I look at this the same way. If someone wants to create a character that is an homage to one of their favorite comic characters, who cares? It's difficult to make exact copies anyway. There is no bat symbol, no Superman chest symbol, etc. Sure, you can make pretty close copies, but rarely are they exactly identical.

 

How is this any different than the umpteen dozen generic Asian MMO NPCs I see running around? Aside from the IP concerns, I don't have a problem with recognizable character designs. If it's more fun for some, then have at it.

[subbacultchas]

I don't understand why people get so concerned about this. Do you harangue every Batman or Deadpool you see on Halloween? I look at this the same way. If someone wants to create a character that is an homage to one of their favorite comic characters, who cares? It's difficult to make exact copies anyway. There is no bat symbol, no Superman chest symbol, etc. Sure, you can make pretty close copies, but rarely are they exactly identical.

 

How is this any different than the umpteen dozen generic Asian MMO NPCs I see running around? Aside from the IP concerns, I don't have a problem with recognizable character designs. If it's more fun for some, then have at it.

This. I don't get it either, and I'm trying really hard not to cast stones at folks who seem to care about it. I don't care if others are lazy, or as is most often the case, are huge fans of the IP they copy so are doing as homage. It's certainly not costing the actual IP holder anything, it's not remotely likely that Marvel/DC/Image/TopCow/Joe's are going to actually sue the devs here. I just don't get it, at all. In my line of work I regularly tell other librarians, both local and wider audience, that it is not our job to do copyright lawyers jobs for them; but people still do and I've just never understood it.

[subbacultchas]

If I had to make a hard guess, I'd bet it's two things actually. The first is that a lot of folks are genuinely scared that any of the comic companies will come after the game, and COH will be shut down again. It's not going to happen, and the devs at present don't seem to share the same concern AFAIK, but it's still a fear even if it's unfounded. Can't blame someone for that too much I suppose. Second is this undercurrent of people playing the game differently, which you see crop up in other areas here too (PL and AE somewhat). This game isn't going to have a homogeneous playstyle, that's really what attracted a lot of to it in the first place. For the most part, we are all going to have to get along and adopt a live and let live approach unless it's something that directly impacts the games longevity. And I trust our devs and community mods to let us know when that's the case.

 

I'm glad this is the type of game that inspires this type of passion in people, even in the form of worrying. Just goes to show you how dedicated our playerbase is. I hope we can eventually come together in some consensus on this, or get a dev's input to lessen some of these worries.