Why is MIND CONTROL so weak?

[Peacemoon]

Containment would be better 'fixed' by allowing Confusion and Fear to give containment, rather than giving Mind an AoE immobalise. I think we're after the same goal, just different ways of approaching the solution. I think on this thread there hasn't been any decent refute of allowing Confusion & Fear to give containment, so probably the best way to go. Lets hope the Devs are listening! 

 

I think we need to really look at TK. We are all so used to skipping it I think we all forget that it is suppose to be Mind's signature power! It is meant to be the power that defines the set, not one that is skipped and worked around. This is why Mind can feel so weak at low levels.

Redlynne posted a great screenshot of its original capabilities, and we have to remember that on a one minute recharge, it would have had a similar impact as AoE stuns for other sets. 

So TK really does need to be changed and buffed and made central to the whole Mind Control package. If we could build some consensus on what we think as a community, maybe the Devs will take this into consideration?

 

There have been some great suggestions so far. Just to recap-

Allow TK's repel to be turned on and off somehow. Now that CoH powers are much more advanced there is many ways this could be done. I was looking at Dual Pistols/Bio Armour last night, particularly switch ammo and adaptation, and one potential solution would be to have TK grant 2 versions of itself - one with repel, and one without repel. 

If you wanted to get really clever, both versions of the power could have different side effects and/or interactions with levitate. So there is some great creative potential there.

Allow TK to interact with other powers. Levitating the TK target could turn it into a minor AoE power. TK could also be a way of upping Mind Control's damage a bit, as a slight trade off to no pet (damage should always be a bit lower, since there are advantages to no pet!)

I need to add this one - Let TK take Hold Duration enhancement sets! We really need to be able to put sets in this power. Perhaps the hold duration enhancement could enhance the max duration that the toggle can stay on? (If -contentious point- there was a max limit on how long it can be toggled for, like Dimension Shift. This might be a negative but it could also be a positive if used as a balancing tool, if TK isn't allowed to be toggled on for long its effects could be more substantial, and its end cost could be almost nothing. Whereas if its perma, it might not be more limited in its impact). 

 

Does TK persist after death of the anchor? Other debuffs do, but I haven't tested it with TK yet. 

I think if we can keep the core concept as a hold toggle, that would be the best fix for TK. Since you could just delete it and turn it into an AoE stun (super scramble mind!), but wheres the fun in that? TK should be like Wormhole - capable of some unique plays. 

 

What does everyone else think?

 

 

[Blackfeather]

Ooooh, ooooh! It's time for another post pimping in that case! 🤣

 

My Mind Control proposal thread talked pretty in depth about Telekinesis - it's where the whole turning Levitate into a Mass Levitate when targeting Telekinesis'd targets came from in the first place, but that was only part of the proposal.

 

I think being able to accurately control where Telekinesis can go would do a lot for the power; not just turning the Repel effect off and on, but making it so you can move the effect wherever you like. Think something like D&D's Watery Sphere, allowing for battlefield control similar to Wormhole, but on a more continual basis. I compared it to a Mastermind's pet controls, allowing you to park a group of enemies in a single place, let them follow you, or even vacuum up a disparate crowd into a more manageable huddle.

 

Being able to immobilise enemies with Telekinesis would be very nice as well - having another avenue to affect AVs/EBs outside of Sleeps would increase Mind Control's versatility further. Perhaps the power could even come with a strong enough effect to move around such enemies when directly targeted on them, providing some form of positional control if not outright holding them down.

 

And of course, having a higher target cap than it does currently would be nice for sure - 5 is not enough!

3 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

Does TK persist after death of the anchor? Other debuffs do, but I haven't tested it with TK yet.

I believe Redlynne mentioned that it detoggles after the anchor is defeated. It's definitely much better to target it against more durable/higher ranking enemies at the moment.

[Redlynne]

4 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

Does TK persist after death of the anchor? Other debuffs do, but I haven't tested it with TK yet.

I was using Telekinesis during a Mayhem Mission on Everlasting yesterday.

Telekinesis detoggles instantly upon defeat of the anchor.

4 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

Allow TK's repel to be turned on and off somehow.

If we can't get that, JUST DELETE THE REPEL ALREADY.  It's one field.  Delete it.  Telekinesis instantly gains needed utility.

Reduce the endurance cost per activation by 1/3rd from 1.56 to 1.04 because the "cost" for the Repel no longer needs to be there.

DONE.

Speaking just for myself, I'd rather have Telekinesis be an anchored Target AoE Hold that deals damage at a tick rate comparable to that of a damage aura (like Icicles or Orbiting Death or something, normalized for the activation rate).  That way, over time you have Telekinesis slowly crushing whatever it is holding rather than pushing it away (so $Targets fall out of radius because of the stupidly uncontrollable Repel mechanic that will always spread them unless intercepted by useful terrain).

 

Heck, I would even go so far as to argue that Telekinesis ought to be an AoE Hold+Slow (doing -Recharge and -Speed on affected $Targets) such that it still does something even when you need more Hold mag on $Targets ... and so that you could slot Hold and Slow sets into the power (just add Slow to the list of allowed enhancements).

4 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

Let TK take Hold Duration enhancement sets!

This is yet another of the egregious injustices done to Telekinesis, because of a legacy decision made when Inventions were introduced with Issue 9.  It's a Hold power that accepts no Hold enhancements, denying the power the opportunity for Hold procs (I so totally want to put an Entomb Absorb proc into Telekinesis!!!).  Being able to add Hold and Slow procs to Telekinesis would be game changing for Mind Controllers.

4 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

So TK really does need to be changed and buffed and made central to the whole Mind Control package.

Buff number one ... Max Targets increase from --> 5 <-- to either 10 or 16 ... with 16 being preferred.

Max Targets 5 belongs to melee cone powers.

Telekinesis has a Range of 50 ... and is an anchored Target AoE power.

 

Do the math.

 

Buff number two ... increase the radius from 10 ft to 15 ft when removing the Repel.  Done.

[Peacemoon]

2 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

I compared it to a Mastermind's pet controls, allowing you to park a group of enemies in a single place, let them follow you, or even vacuum up a disparate crowd into a more manageable huddle.

Okay completely different point, but I love the idea of possessing mobs and making them move to where you want them to. I don't think this would be possible on a technical level, but imagine how cool that would be? I'm thinking Psycho Mantis from Metal Gear Solid getting Meryl to shoot herself.. (evil Mind Control!). Fun aside, this is probably best represented by confuse/mass confusion. 

 

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

 

If we can't get that, JUST DELETE THE REPEL ALREADY.  It's one field.  Delete it.  Telekinesis instantly gains needed utility.

Reduce the endurance cost per activation by 1/3rd from 1.56 to 1.04 because the "cost" for the Repel no longer needs to be there.

DONE.

Speaking just for myself, I'd rather have Telekinesis be an anchored Target AoE Hold that deals damage at a tick rate comparable to that of a damage aura (like Icicles or Orbiting Death or something, normalized for the activation rate).  That way, over time you have Telekinesis slowly crushing whatever it is holding rather than pushing it away (so $Targets fall out of radius because of the stupidly uncontrollable Repel mechanic that will always spread them unless intercepted by useful terrain).

 

Heck, I would even go so far as to argue that Telekinesis ought to be an AoE Hold+Slow (doing -Recharge and -Speed on affected $Targets) such that it still does something even when you need more Hold mag on $Targets ... and so that you could slot Hold and Slow sets into the power (just add Slow to the list of allowed enhancements).

I would be up for removing the repel, I just wasn't sure how much people really liked that aspect to it? The repel feature on TK is a bit like the knockBACK on Wormhole - part of the reason the power was crap, and no one wanted to change it for a long time (For Wormhole the original devs kept saying it was thematic on how mobs were pushed through a wormhole... never mind how crippling it was as a gameplay mechanic on an underperforming set..!) 

 

 

One thing we haven't touched on yet but I mentioned above, what about a max duration for TK, like 30 seconds? The advantage of a max duration is you could potentially ramp up the effects it has, and lower the end cost? Just a thought.

Also I like the idea of it having roughly a similar uptime to the AoE stuns, which have 90s base recharge. So 30s duration +60s cooldown and we're at 90s. With the option to cancel early of course.

 

What about making it an AoE location toggle rather than mob targeted? 

Also some devils advocate play here - if the repel got deleted is it not just in effect a second AoE hold like Total Domination? Does it not lose some flavour, and how could we put that back in? I'm thinking on this myself. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Peacemoon

[Redlynne]

15 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

Okay completely different point, but I love the idea of possessing mobs and making them move to where you want them to. I don't think this would be possible on a technical level, but imagine how cool that would be? I'm thinking Psycho Mantis from Metal Gear Solid getting Meryl to shoot herself.. (evil Mind Control!). Fun aside, this is probably best represented by confuse/mass confusion.

That's just pie in the sky wishful thinking going on there.

Cool?  Sure.

Something you can do in a movie or comic book (with absolute script control)?  Of course.

Something you can do in a game?  Totally a Confusion oriented mechanic, not a Hold mechanic.

Hold prevents actions.  Confusion allows (hostile) actions against "the own team" to happen.

 

Realistically speaking, the only way you'd get the "shoot yourself" thing to work in City of Heroes is a Grant Power that enables powers that affect others to affect self ... which basically isn't going to happen (because that would in effect DOUBLE the size of the powers database for NPCs!).

 

Nice thought.

NOT GONNA HAPPEN with the codebase of City of Heroes ... because while it's easy to say, it's not easy to implement/do outside of a scripted cutscene.

19 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

what about a max duration for TK, like 30 seconds?

I'm going to be as polite as possible about that idea.

 

NO.

 

The only place that might have relevance is in PvP.  For PvE ... NO.

 

Telekinesis is NOT an Intangible styled power.

21 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

What about making it an AoE location toggle rather than mob targeted?

Acceptable.  It would also solve the problem of anchor defeats ... however, if Telekinesis is made a Location Target AoE then is CANNOT have a Repel functionality built into the power, since that would push $Targets out of an AoE that doesn't move with them.

22 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

is it not just in effect a second AoE hold like Total Domination?

Both a Holds.

One is a toggle, the other is a click.

Total Domination has a larger radius.

Total Domination affects more $Targets (until that manifest stupidity gets fixed for Telekinesis).

Total Domination can benefit from Overpower, while Telekinesis NEVER gets an Overpower bump to Hold mag.

Total Domination can slot Sets, while Telekinesis cannot (until that manifest stupidity gets fixed for Telekinesis).

 

That's SIX differences and I'm just getting warmed up.

No, they're not the same ... even if they're both AoE Holds.

[Peacemoon]

57 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

That's just pie in the sky wishful thinking going on there.

Cool?  Sure.

Something you can do in a movie or comic book (with absolute script control)?  Of course.

Something you can do in a game?  Totally a Confusion oriented mechanic, not a Hold mechanic.

Hold prevents actions.  Confusion allows (hostile) actions against "the own team" to happen.

 

Realistically speaking, the only way you'd get the "shoot yourself" thing to work in City of Heroes is a Grant Power that enables powers that affect others to affect self ... which basically isn't going to happen (because that would in effect DOUBLE the size of the powers database for NPCs!).

 

Nice thought.

NOT GONNA HAPPEN with the codebase of City of Heroes ... because while it's easy to say, it's not easy to implement/do outside of a scripted cutscene.

I'm going to be as polite as possible about that idea.

Yeah the 'shooting yourself' was not a realistic proposal just me having playing with an idea for no reason. I'm quite liable to this sorry! 😉

I keep thinking how it would be cool to charm an enemy and take them as your pet - another impossible!

 

Quote

NO.

 

The only place that might have relevance is in PvP.  For PvE ... NO.

 

Telekinesis is NOT an Intangible styled power.

 

Just brainstorming - but if the power had a fixed duration (perhaps enhanceable with hold enhancements), then more interesting effects could arguably be put on it, but just an idea. The incarnate toggles are like this - 2 mins on and 2 mins off, but means the 2 mins on can be more powerful than if it was just always on. 

 

Quote

Both a Holds.

One is a toggle, the other is a click.

Total Domination has a larger radius.

Total Domination affects more $Targets (until that manifest stupidity gets fixed for Telekinesis).

Total Domination can benefit from Overpower, while Telekinesis NEVER gets an Overpower bump to Hold mag.

Total Domination can slot Sets, while Telekinesis cannot (until that manifest stupidity gets fixed for Telekinesis).

 

That's SIX differences and I'm just getting warmed up.

No, they're not the same ... even if they're both AoE Holds.

I think there is a lot more to this. TK as an AoE Hold toggle without the repel definitely would compete with Total Domination in my mind. Yes one would be a click and the other a toggle, but in effect they would both do the same thing. Granted other sets like Earth have an AoE stun which combined with AoE immobalise is basically an AoE power - but at the same time it still feels quite different. 

 

We're discussing making Mass Confusion have a much shorter recharge, and giving Confuse/Fear containment damage. So where would TK sit in that? An AoE hold toggle on a 60s cooldown would be an unnecessary extra level of control and risk being overpowered. Or simply be redundent levels of control, or make people just skip Total Domination. 

The more I think of it, the more I think Mass Confusion should be lower level (like 12), and and TK should be 32, and completely change how TK works, so it is less about AoE control and more about a non-pet way of enhancing your damage. So TK could just be its own attack, or a toggle you put on a single target that amplifies your damage (like the minor AoE levitate suggestion).

 

Anyway it is good we are disagreeing - its the best way to sharpen the ideas! 

[Peacemoon]

8 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

I like the battle space shaping repositioning powers; they add another dimension to gameplay. Not a fan on how it (repel) was implemented in TK.

 

Disregarding cottage rules, what if TK was made to operate like Wormhole "lite". First click selects targets within AoE, second designates target location. Instead of porting mobs, they are physically repelled to the target location.  Additional tweaks would have to be made, mainly duration and after effects. Considerations for abuse would have to be worked into the design calculus.

I like this, and I think as a repositional power it would keep a lot more of its original flavour. Although I just can't see how this would work in practice without being horribly cumbersome. 

I don't think there is the tech for 'attraction' - i.e. specifying a location for them to be repelled towards. I think you can only do this by repelling away from something. In order to the above with the current TK, the Mind Controller would need to get behind the spawn somehow and TK the mobs towards their team. (Which would be cool!! But how?!) 

 

I mean, maybe just upping the target cap to 10/16 would be enough to fix TK, and simply keep the repel effect. Or have the repel speed enhanceable?!

Edited April 15, 2020 by Peacemoon

[Peacemoon]

Just now, 5099y_74c05 said:

I think the base tech exists. Gale forms a vector from you through a target. In contrast, Wormhole's KD seems to be the center of the target location, everything gets KBed out from there. Have the KB vector form from Source to Target locs.

If thats possible, and in my mind that is still a big if, that would be amazing. You could Put TK on a spawn ahead of your team, and repel them TOWARDS the group. Or wherever you wanted them. I think that plus the increased target cap would make a huge difference to the power and set. 

Of course there would still be a few niggles, lack of enhancement opportunities, end cost, and anchor death. Smoothing some of that over would be essential. 

[Peacemoon]

3 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

This implementation would eliminate the anchor issue; Wormhole doesn't have an "anchor" per say. It has a target area centered around target location (like most summon powers). Concur with slotting concerns. End cost would have to be adjusted; the power would no longer operate as toggle and would be a click/summon. I'll have to rethink of a design that preserves it as a toggle and utilizes current assets.

 

Overall I'm trying to preserve TKs place as a tier six power while also treating it as one of Mind/ "signature" powers (shamefully in its current state its a skipper). With this in mind it should bring added utility without making the set OPed. I think some of the suggestions in this thread are disregarding TKs context in the overall set.

 

I hear you. As a signature power it really should be bringing something extra to the table, and not just another lockdown button. I think that's what I was trying to say earlier.

 

TK is a tricky power to suggest for, because its really hard to come up with something that doesn't completely change it. I think you're idea as a click would be on the okay side, as it would still be doing the same as what it did before, but in a more effective way.

[Redlynne]

36 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

I think the base tech exists. Gale forms a vector from you through a target. In contrast, Wormhole's KD seems to be the center of the target location, everything gets KBed out from there. Have the KB vector form from Source to Target locs.

 

32 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

If thats possible, and in my mind that is still a big if, that would be amazing. You could Put TK on a spawn ahead of your team, and repel them TOWARDS the group. Or wherever you wanted them. I think that plus the increased target cap would make a huge difference to the power and set. 

Of course there would still be a few niggles, lack of enhancement opportunities, end cost, and anchor death. Smoothing some of that over would be essential. 

 

The problem with that is the vector and the fact that both Repel and Knockback push AWAY from a location, not towards ... resulting in an EXplosion rather than an IMplosion.  Helpful graphic of the differences below.

An EXplosion of Repel/Knockback pushes $Targets OUT of the Area of Effect (either from the central anchor or from the caster).

An IMplosion (presumably via very short range Teleport of 10ft or less) relocates $Targets towards the CENTER of the Area of Effect so as to keep them inside the area of effect.

 

I'd be perfectly happy with a Telekinesis that was a toggle AoE Hold that would periodically (maybe once per 10 seconds or so) "implode" $Targets within the AoE around the anchor (via Teleport mechanics) into a cluster around the anchor, so Telekinesis would work as a herding/clustering tool ... which is something that Total Domination does NOT do (and even Wormhole doesn't do short of slotting Wormhole with a KB>KD proc.

10 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Overall I'm trying to preserve TKs place as a tier six power while also treating it as one of Mind/ "signature" powers (shamefully in its current state its a skipper). With this in mind it should bring added utility without making the set OPed. I think some of the suggestions in this thread are disregarding TKs context in the overall set.

This is why I'm always starting from a position of "pie in the sky wishful thinking is not as helpful as you might want to think" in my assertions and refutations on this topic.  We don't need to reinvent the wheel here, we just need wheel that is round and can turn with a LOT less friction on the axle.

6 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

I hear you. As a signature power it really should be bringing something extra to the table, and not just another lockdown button. I think that's what I was trying to say earlier.

 

TK is a tricky power to suggest for, because its really hard to come up with something that doesn't completely change it. I think you're idea as a click would be on the okay side, as it would still be doing the same as what it did before, but in a more effective way.

This is why I'm of the opinion that a periodic "implosion teleport" on a simple AoE Hold toggle would be the simplest implementation as a replacement for the Repel function.  Just teleport all $Targets within the AoE to the location of the anchor for Telekinesis.  After that it's just a matter of ensuring that the Max Targets is raised (easy to do), and you're most of the way there.

[FrauleinMental]

On 4/9/2020 at 12:00 PM, Without_Pause said:

+1. A simple fix could be to rename TK to something like Mind Warp and have it be a AoE disorient. 

 

But yeah, I love Mind control as a powerset, but the times I would pick it over Plant is in theme alone. Mind has no pet, so it should to a default be better at control and damage, and I don't see it compared to Plant.

As I recall, the original justification for Mind not having a pet was that with Confuse powers (both single target and area) we were going to make our own "pets" from the local mobs.  That would be okay, if I got xp for stuff my "pets" killed (like other controllers get for their pet kills), or if my "pet summon" didn't require a to-hit roll (like other controllers can auto-summon pets), or at least if Confuse triggered Containment.

 

But then we got Dominators, with a better inherent and more damage (ultimately, the name of the game is damage).  And then we got Plant, with all the control and confuse of Mind plus pets.  And then too many things became more mez-resistant, effectively cutting controller damage.

 

Another problem is the mission design, with so many missions that are de-facto kill-all.  Almost like a stalker, Mind is a scalpel in a game that encourages hammers.

 

All that being said, I've mained a mind/kin controller since Issue 6, and nothing else holds my attention like it.  Kin does round off some of the rough edges of Mind, though I respec'ed out of Repel and TK at the first opportunities and never looked back.

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

TK's current characteristics:

• A toggle
• A repel
• A hold
• only takes End Redux (probably most forgiving to violate)

Endurance Reduction and Range enhancements.  Sadly, the Range enhancements don't increase the Target AoE radius (I wish!) but instead merely modifies how close you need to be to the anchor (50ft) before you can toggle on Telekinesis.

1 hour ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Implosion could work by leveraging and modifying Jolting Chain mechanics. Currently JC's KB vectors are source to target. The challenge is getting the pseudo pets to position themselves to repel inwards. If Wormhole KBs along a vector from center out its feasible to get 16 Pseudo pets to follow the same vectors and follow up with a Repel/KB effect pointing inwards. This mechanic would have to be done fairly quickly, fast moving targets will likely scatter when they are no longer aligned with these inward vectors.

 

Looking at this I'm thinking a it may be easier to either split the current TK repel source or add two flanking Repel sources to TK so they clump targets together instead of scatter. The two sources can be placed 15 to 20' apart.

This only works in IDEAL and perfectly pristine laboratory conditions.

Add any kind of complicating factor(s) ... such as terrain, crowds, collisions, etc. ... and the whole thing crumbles like a house of cards an a table being actively shaken vigorously by an overly enthusiastic child.  The failure modes are NOT pretty and can get rather weird in quite a hurry.  I talked to Arbiter Hawk about it (in person) at the 2012 Player Summit and both he and Synapse agreed that when they researched the possibility internally it "worked" in a perfectly flat world with nothing else in it ... but as soon as you put something else (anything else, really) into the mix stuff gets wonky and weird.  The problem is that as soon as any "chaotic" elements get introduced into what you're trying to do with that it just breaks (and it breaks BADLY!) and you wind up with some extremely chaotic weirdness of behaviors that don't do what you were expecting to have happen (let alone what you were wanting to have happen).

 

So great in THEORY, but the "game reality" of it is a whole lot messier than it would at first appear.

And since I respect Arbiter Hawk and Synapse (and Black Scorpion, who backed them up on this) both back then and to this day, I'm inclined to believe that they knew what they were talking about since they were the Powers Devs at Paragon Studios and had years worth of experience and expertise with the codebase.

 

Works great in theory, but doesn't work in "reality" (or words to that effect).

[SaddestGhost]

6 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

One thing we haven't touched on yet but I mentioned above, what about a max duration for TK, like 30 seconds? The advantage of a max duration is you could potentially ramp up the effects it has, and lower the end cost? Just a thought.

Also I like the idea of it having roughly a similar uptime to the AoE stuns, which have 90s base recharge. So 30s duration +60s cooldown and we're at 90s. With the option to cancel early of course.

In regard to a fixed duration, your suggested numbers would easily overshadow Mass Domination (if they shared a target cap).  With 2 level 50 IOs MD's duration is still shy of 30 seconds and it takes a good deal of recharge to reduce its cooldown to near 60 seconds.  Something similar I had in mind was an accelerating endurance cost to effectively cap its duration, but allowing some flexibility if someone chose to build for end. reduction/recovery to leverage it longer.

 

Swapping trains of thought for a moment: how many consider Telekinesis as Mind's signature power or feel that it should be?  I definitely would like to see it improved to something more functional, but I'm wary about making it a keystone of the set.  Doing so, I think, would change the feel of the entire set as many of us know it.   As I consider these suggestions, I'm thinking about how the KB > KD IOs have altered Bonfire.  A power that was once skipped more often than not became a highly recommended choice.  Honestly, I'm not sure if it was a good change as it allowed Fire to utilize more control with even more damage.

[Blackfeather]

8 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

I would be up for removing the repel, I just wasn't sure how much people really liked that aspect to it? The repel feature on TK is a bit like the knockBACK on Wormhole - part of the reason the power was crap, and no one wanted to change it for a long time (For Wormhole the original devs kept saying it was thematic on how mobs were pushed through a wormhole... never mind how crippling it was as a gameplay mechanic on an underperforming set..!)

Being able to move enemies around the battlefield is definitely nice...but generally it's better when it's controllable for sure. A Singularity-like pet that was summoned with Telekinesis would be super cool, drawing in enemies and held them instead of pushing them away - add in Mastermind controls (barring attacking and so on), and you've got yourself a Telekinesis that moves things around at a constant rate. 😎

[Redlynne]

4 hours ago, SaddestGhost said:

how many consider Telekinesis as Mind's signature power or feel that it should be?

Signature = Yes

No other powerset has anything quite like Telekinesis.

And after it got bludgeoned to debt by ALL the nerfs inflicted upon Telekinesis, not even Mind Control has anything like Telekinesis anymore.  That's the True Crime of the situation.

[Peacemoon]

7 hours ago, SaddestGhost said:

Swapping trains of thought for a moment: how many consider Telekinesis as Mind's signature power or feel that it should be?  I definitely would like to see it improved to something more functional, but I'm wary about making it a keystone of the set.  Doing so, I think, would change the feel of the entire set as many of us know it.   As I consider these suggestions, I'm thinking about how the KB > KD IOs have altered Bonfire.  A power that was once skipped more often than not became a highly recommended choice.  Honestly, I'm not sure if it was a good change as it allowed Fire to utilize more control with even more damage.

I know understand what you mean. There is some benefit from having skippable powers, and if we went through the game and fixed up every power, it would make builds feel much more constrained. One of the upside down benefits of FF is you only need 3 powers from the set. Which on one hand is because a lot of the others suck, but on the other hand allows you to focus on other things! The same can be said for powers that don’t need enhancement slots to be effective.
 

I don’t really have an answer to this other than TK should have a niche it can fill (toggle +moving enemies) and I definitely agree that it risks overshadowing Total Domination if we’re  not careful. 

[Redlynne]

9 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

It was a high utility power available early in a build, but in certain build configurations was abused beyond what the devs imagined.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about Seeds of Confusion ...

10 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

I do think it had a prohibitively high EPS cost in the 3 EPS range, you basically had to go all in with six slot End Redux (prior to ED).

1.56 end per activation with an activation every 0.5s ... so 3.12 endurance per second.

This has never been changed.

12 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

I also think it had a 60 sec max channeling time and 60 sec recharge giving it a 50% uptime

Wrong in PvE.

It only happens like that in PvP.

14 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

pre aggro and target caps TK masters could feasibly help herd maps up.

Not the whole map like tankers could but it was relatively risk free for a Controller.

A 10 ft radius can herd A MAP?

When the Repel factor causes $Targets to spread out of the AoE unless there's helpful terrain forcing them to cluster up?

[Peacemoon]

31 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Agree and amplify your concern. If its fixed it should be calibrated fix. I think restoring TK to its full former glory would be a big mistake. It was a high utility power available early in a build, but in certain build configurations was abused beyond what the devs imagined.

 

My memory is foggy on how the power was originally designed. I do think it had a prohibitively high EPS cost in the 3 EPS range, you basically had to go all in with six slot End Redux (prior to ED).  Only /Kins and /Rads with Stamina could sustain it for long periods. I also think it had a 60 sec max channeling time and 60 sec recharge giving it a 50% uptime; it was a hard tradeoff for duration or uptime. Even in that state it was pretty broken in the hands of a min-maxer; pre aggro and target caps TK masters could feasibly help herd maps up. Not the whole map like tankers could but it was relatively risk free for a Controller. In its post weakened state Mass Hypnosis was elevated in utility and became a lesser substitute to fill in the TK gap; they basically traded places in utility (not tier order).

 

 

I remember 6 slotting for end reduction was a thing! I also remember some talk about map herding with TK. It definitely was done, but I never witnessed it. Back in those days I played Grav/ not Mind/. Poor me...

[The_Cheeseman]

How about this:

 

Telekinesis is an anchored toggle that applies a hold effect on the target that stacks upon itself every few seconds, gradually increasing its own magnitude, but also draining ever more end/sec as stacks accumulate. It would be a unique power that would allow Controllers to hold bosses, and potentially AVs if you had the end, with its own built-in backstop (you will eventually run dry on end). Playing with it would involve deciding how long it’s necessary to maintain it, and when to sacrifice your mag stacks to reset the end cost.

 

It would be a fairly unique power, provide a useful tool for Controllers, and not really have much of an effect on Doms (since Domination wouldn’t affect it, and Doms can already perma-hold AVs, anyway).

[Redlynne]

4 minutes ago, The_Cheeseman said:

Telekinesis is an anchored toggle that applies a hold effect on the target that stacks upon itself every few seconds, gradually increasing its own magnitude, but also draining ever more end/sec as stacks accumulate.

How?

How would that work?

I'm hard pressed to imagine a scenario in which that works the way you're intending using the game tech/mechanics currently available.

 

I know what you're reaching FOR ... what I don't understand is how you "get there from here" (so to speak), mainly because that's not the way that toggles work (or most of them, anyway).

 

Are there any precedents you're following for this idea?

[SaddestGhost]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

How?

How would that work?

I'm hard pressed to imagine a scenario in which that works the way you're intending using the game tech/mechanics currently available.

 

I know what you're reaching FOR ... what I don't understand is how you "get there from here" (so to speak), mainly because that's not the way that toggles work (or most of them, anyway).

 

Are there any precedents you're following for this idea?

Multiple toggles baked into one power may be able to do it.  The original would just check if the target was valid and the player was still using the power, it would toggle on Hold 1 with X endurance cost, after some seconds Hold 2 with X+1 endurance cost, after some more seconds Hold 3 with X+2 endurance cost...  

 

There's no reason people need to be constrained by what exists for a mere suggestion.  It might lead to someone in charge wondering "Is this possible?" only to discover that it is.  We've certainly seen some surprising developments before like fast-snipes or Injection behaving differently based on its target.  Now more than any other time in the process is the time for thinking outside the box.

[Redlynne]

6 minutes ago, SaddestGhost said:

Multiple toggles baked into one power may be able to do it.

[SaddestGhost]

Since you seem confused, I'll give you another potential solution that I didn't spitball in 60 seconds.

 

We know that powers can have their function altered by checking for certain status, granted tokens, or modes (Hidden, InCombat, Grant_Combo_Level1, Swap Ammo, etc.).  We know status/tokens/modes can be granted after some delay (NoPhase after 30 seconds in Nebulous Form, Hibernate, etc).  We then make TK with a variety of modes (TK1: mag 3 hold, 1.0 endurance/sec, TK2: mag 4 hold, 2.0 endurance/sec,  TK3: mag 6 hold, 3.5 endurance/sec); the power itself will set each mode after a fixed amount of time and swap to the higher mag/endurance cost mode.

 

There's one potential implementation that utilizes only existing tech.  

 

I'd like to point out that I don't even find the Cheeseman's original proposition all that appealing.  But the eagerness to shoot down ideas from the technical limitations stand point is far from constructive.  Brainstorming is a vital part of creative problem solving work.  After you have a basket of ideas you weed out the good from the bad.  If there's some objection to his idea other than "we can't do it", I'd like to hear it at least.

Edited April 16, 2020 by SaddestGhost

[Redlynne]

53 minutes ago, SaddestGhost said:

If there's some objection to his idea other than "we can't do it", I'd like to hear it at least.

Explaining it to humans (and robots and Kheldians and so on) who read this forum is on thing.  We can afford to be flexible in our thinking.

Explaining the ideas to the computer so that the servers "understand" how to implement the idea(s) is the necessary next step.  Easy to say and hard to do (and all that).

 

Besides, powers like Telekinesis only need a few tweaks in order to be useful ... not a complete strip down/replacement with something completely OTHER than what Telekinesis either was or should be.

 

Pie in the sky is fun to think about, sure ... but you also need to explain how it would have to work in a way that the game engine (run by a computer) will understand and implement flawlessly.  Do not use the Underpants Gnomes Business Model as your first option for how to do this (let alone standard operating procedure for any and all creative endeavors).

 

[AngriestGhost]

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

besides, powers like Telekinesis only need a few tweaks in order to be useful ... not a complete strip down/replacement with something completely OTHER than what Telekinesis either was or should be.

I agree with you on this. There are people that use and enjoy TK as it is or at least as it once was.  It's unique in what it does and how it does it.  I think there are simple solutions (like your original TK proposal) that address most of the problems with it.  However, there are a lot of things that could be tweaked with it.  For instance, if we up the target cap, does it infringe on the role of Total Domination? How do we address that?  How long should a player be able to sustain it?  How long is reasonable for it to be a positioning tool without replacing Total Domination?  I think a growing endurance cost could be part of the answer to those questions.

 

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Explaining it to humans (and robots and Kheldians and so on) who read this forum is on thing.  We can afford to be flexible in our thinking.

Explaining the ideas to the computer so that the servers "understand" how to implement the idea(s) is the necessary next step.  Easy to say and hard to do (and all that).

That is one of the great challenges of being a programmer.  You're boxed in by many factors, but there's freedom within those constraints. Talk to a musician or artist and they'll agree that limitations often breed creativity. Being unable to see the path initially doesn't mean it isn't there.

5 hours ago, Redlynne said:

 

Pie in the sky is fun to think about, sure ... but you also need to explain how it would have to work in a way that the game engine (run by a computer) will understand and implement flawlessly.  Do not use the Underpants Gnomes Business Model as your first option for how to do this (let alone standard operating procedure for any and all creative endeavors).

 

You see pie in the sky and I see someone not reaching for answers.  From what I have seen a power that sets and utilizes different mode tags is feasible.  I hadn't consider it's use in regard to TK however until Cheeseman's suggestion.