Copyrighted Generics Issues

[MunkiLord]

13 hours ago, Oubliette_Red said:

If I were, say a writer or artist then I would certainly be thankful of the HC dev team for doing their part to protect my IP if some player were using it in-game without my express authorization. Same goes for the players that take the time to report said offenders.

 

Perhaps if you had high sales. But unknown and struggling creators very well might be appreciative that anybody cares enough to play as one of their characters and give potentially free promotion. 

[ZacKing]

15 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Perhaps if you had high sales. But unknown and struggling creators very well might be appreciative that anybody cares enough to play as one of their characters and give potentially free promotion. 

Even Disney doesn't care.  There is fan art all over the web.  Cosplayers are all over the world posting pics of themselves on social media.  They go after people like artists on Deviantart taking commissions for their stuff and people selling skins for games. 

[Wild Claw]

17 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Perhaps if you had high sales. But unknown and struggling creators very well might be appreciative that anybody cares enough to play as one of their characters and give potentially free promotion. 

Possibly. However, a good chunk of my family are professional writers and artists, and their response to that is "Doing something 'for the exposure' is a waste of your time." Being a professional creative is just like being a professional anything else. If you want to sell your work, sell it. If you want to promote your work, do it yourself.  But giving it away is just giving it away. Don't expect to get anything from it, because the chances that free use is traced back to you by someone who is willing to buy things is so low it might as well be negative numbers for all the good it does you.

[ShardWarrior]

14 minutes ago, Wild Claw said:

Possibly. However, a good chunk of my family are professional writers and artists, and their response to that is "Doing something 'for the exposure' is a waste of your time." Being a professional creative is just like being a professional anything else. If you want to sell your work, sell it. If you want to promote your work, do it yourself.  But giving it away is just giving it away. Don't expect to get anything from it, because the chances that free use is traced back to you by someone who is willing to buy things is so low it might as well be negative numbers for all the good it does you.

See that is interesting.  I have a friend who is a photographer and often does "prints for time" jobs.  Sole reason he does this is to get his work out and has gotten several paying jobs because of it through word of mouth.

[Wild Claw]

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

See that is interesting.  I have a friend who is a photographer and often does "prints for time" jobs.  Sole reason he does this is to get his work out and has gotten several paying jobs because of it through word of mouth.

It might be an age thing. 🙂 Most of the creatives in my family had their professional careers ranging from the 60's to the 90's. The few that are currently active make a big deal from making sure their name is always displayed prominently on everything they do 'for free' because they don't trust word-of-mouth by itself to work. Mainly because they've been burned too many times by the recipient of 'for the exposure' work deliberately obscuring their sources.

[MunkiLord]

34 minutes ago, Wild Claw said:

Possibly. However, a good chunk of my family are professional writers and artists, and their response to that is "Doing something 'for the exposure' is a waste of your time." Being a professional creative is just like being a professional anything else. If you want to sell your work, sell it. If you want to promote your work, do it yourself.  But giving it away is just giving it away. Don't expect to get anything from it, because the chances that free use is traced back to you by someone who is willing to buy things is so low it might as well be negative numbers for all the good it does you.

In the context of writing or shooting for a website or magazine, I generally agree since that person is doing actual work. But in the context of someone making some unknown character in a video game or making fanfic, the creator isn't actually doing anything. 

 

Plus as a potential consumer whenever I hear about someone being a dick about their IP it makes me less likely to want to buy their stuff. Disney holds enough market share and power that they can do what they want, random person down the street may not be able to afford that.  

[ABlueThingy]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Even Disney doesn't care.  There is fan art all over the web.  Cosplayers are all over the world posting pics of themselves on social media.  They go after people like artists on Deviantart taking commissions for their stuff and people selling skins for games. 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2017/10/23/goodbye-mickey-new-disney-lawsuit-could-ruin-your-childs-birthday

" "Disney alleges that Sarelli has a "knock-off business ... built upon the infringement of Plaintiffs' highly valuable intellectual property rights," including the fictional characters Darth Vader, Iron Man and Elsa and Anna from Frozen. Disney is upset how this company "provides unlicensed and poor quality appearances and performances" by actors dressed as "iconic characters for themed events, such as children's parties." "

 

https://insidethemagic.net/2020/03/disney-wins-lawsuit-ec1/

"A 22-page lawsuit was filed against DisGear by Disney Enterprises and Lucasfilm Entertainment copyright infringement in the use of Disney logos, designs, and products."

 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/disney-levies-fine-elementary-school-illegally-lion-king

Disney sued a school for showing the movie Lion King without saying pretty please first

 

Also for the sake of Irony, I found this one:

https://abovethelaw.com/2018/08/fair-use-for-me-but-not-for-thee/

Disney is saying the Michal Jackson estate is being too stingy with it's copyrights.  The MJ Estate countered with the above images I dropped.

 

-------------------------

 

The point here is that sometimes Disney tries crush you.  Sometimes it doesn't.  Are you willing to risk a few thousand dollars on that?  That Disney maybe won't come for us.  That maybe they won't win if they do.  So you'll only be out a few thousand for the legal filings and lawyer fees.

 

You'd be willing to pony that up right?  No?  Then don't ask the HC Devs to risk it for you.

Edited April 24, 2020 by ABlueThingy
put images in spoiler tag

[ABlueThingy]

I found some more examples too
 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Game isn't live anymore and isn't being run by a for profit company.

Yet we are still interacting with the for-profit company, who can still be sued for their product.
And who can make life very difficult for open servers.

[ShardWarrior]

15 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Yet we are still interacting with the for-profit company, who can still be sued for their product.

I am not so sure that is the case.

 

22 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2017/10/23/goodbye-mickey-new-disney-lawsuit-could-ruin-your-childs-birthday

" "Disney alleges that Sarelli has a "knock-off business ... built upon the infringement of Plaintiffs' highly valuable intellectual property rights," including the fictional characters Darth Vader, Iron Man and Elsa and Anna from Frozen. Disney is upset how this company "provides unlicensed and poor quality appearances and performances" by actors dressed as "iconic characters for themed events, such as children's parties." "

 

https://insidethemagic.net/2020/03/disney-wins-lawsuit-ec1/

"A 22-page lawsuit was filed against DisGear by Disney Enterprises and Lucasfilm Entertainment copyright infringement in the use of Disney logos, designs, and products."

 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/disney-levies-fine-elementary-school-illegally-lion-king

Disney sued a school for showing the movie Lion King without saying pretty please first

 

Also for the sake of Irony, I found this one:

https://abovethelaw.com/2018/08/fair-use-for-me-but-not-for-thee/

Disney is saying the Michal Jackson estate is being too stingy with it's copyrights.  The MJ Estate countered with the above images I dropped.

 

-------------------------

 

The point here is that sometimes Disney tries crush you.  Sometimes it doesn't.  Are you willing to risk a few thousand dollars on that?  That Disney maybe won't come for us.  That maybe they won't win if they do.  So you'll only be out a few thousand for the legal filings and lawyer fees.

 

You'd be willing to pony that up right?  No?  Then don't ask the HC Devs to risk it for you.

Minor nitpick, most all of the examples you are providing here were because someone was trying to make a profit off of Disney property. 

[MunkiLord]

24 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2017/10/23/goodbye-mickey-new-disney-lawsuit-could-ruin-your-childs-birthday

" "Disney alleges that Sarelli has a "knock-off business ... built upon the infringement of Plaintiffs' highly valuable intellectual property rights," including the fictional characters Darth Vader, Iron Man and Elsa and Anna from Frozen. Disney is upset how this company "provides unlicensed and poor quality appearances and performances" by actors dressed as "iconic characters for themed events, such as children's parties." "

 

https://insidethemagic.net/2020/03/disney-wins-lawsuit-ec1/

"A 22-page lawsuit was filed against DisGear by Disney Enterprises and Lucasfilm Entertainment copyright infringement in the use of Disney logos, designs, and products."

 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/disney-levies-fine-elementary-school-illegally-lion-king

Disney sued a school for showing the movie Lion King without saying pretty please first

 

Also for the sake of Irony, I found this one:

https://abovethelaw.com/2018/08/fair-use-for-me-but-not-for-thee/

Disney is saying the Michal Jackson estate is being too stingy with it's copyrights.  The MJ Estate countered with the above images I dropped.

 

-------------------------

 

The point here is that sometimes Disney tries crush you.  Sometimes it doesn't.  Are you willing to risk a few thousand dollars on that?  That Disney maybe won't come for us.  That maybe they won't win if they do.  So you'll only be out a few thousand for the legal filings and lawyer fees.

 

You'd be willing to pony that up right?  No?  Then don't ask the HC Devs to risk it for you.

I'd also like to add to this that copyright is often used for literal censorship   

 

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/01/copyright-first-wave-internet-censorship

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

So?  Are they being created and distributed with the express permission of the IP owner? 

 

I do not think anyone is suggesting character names should be allowed.

You cannot control what a person does on their private home computer.
The thing is, someone using that mod is the only one who sees it.
Nobody else.

I've skinned in multiple games.
I'm modded models.

Having a public server where you have IP-named characters in near-IP costumes?  BIG NO NO!

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

You cannot control what a person does on their private home computer.
The thing is, someone using that mod is the only one who sees it.
Nobody else.

I've skinned in multiple games.
I'm modded models.

Having a public server where you have IP-named characters in near-IP costumes?  BIG NO NO!

Yeah Marvel tried that argument too and it didn't work for them.  Of course direct names shouldn't be allowed. 

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Want to put money on if Disney or Marvel gave them legal permission to do it?

Irrelevant.  They didn't give HOMECOMING license or permission to do it.
And no, Marvel did NOT give NCSoft permission to do knockoffs.
Hence their Generic policy.

[Hyperstrike]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

Yeah Marvel tried that argument too and it didn't work for them.  Of course direct names shouldn't be allowed. 

Marvel tried and MOSTLY failed because the knockoffs in their "evidence" were created using accounts MARVEL ORIGINATED.
The thing is, Marvel can afford to keep it tied up in court for CENTURIES.
NC cannot.
WE cannot.
And we couldn't afford a default judgement.
Nor can we risk the ire of NCSoft.

This is NOT rocket science!
I'm unable to grok your lack of ability to grok this.

[Hyperstrike]

19 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I am not so sure that is the case.

Several groups in the community are currently in negotiations (at some level of activity) to legitimize setups like HC.

To remove the possibility of them getting a bug up their <MichaelJackson>*HOO HOOO!*</MichaelJackson> and dropping the hammer.

[DoctorDitko]

On 4/22/2020 at 12:35 PM, ShardWarrior said:

This is an important thing to remember, in addition to here in the USA where copyright is not necessarily intended to be held in perpetuity.

Yeah, thanks, Sonny Bono!

 

The Supreme Court at the time essentially said "Infinity -1 year isn't the same as Infinity."

 

It is very sad that the most famous detective in the Western world has been adapted in so many creative ways, but the second-most famous will never be part of the public domain.

[ZacKing]

8 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Irrelevant.  They didn't give HOMECOMING license or permission to do it.
And no, Marvel did NOT give NCSoft permission to do knockoffs.
Hence their Generic policy.

LOL!  ok you go right on and keep moving the goalposts.  Have fun with that.

 

6 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Nor can we risk the ire of NCSoft.

Right because stealing their property from them isn't going to upset them....

[ABlueThingy]

5 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I am not so sure that is the case.

 

Minor nitpick, most all of the examples you are providing here were because someone was trying to make a profit off of Disney property. 

 

It's less about Disney coming after us and more about NCsoft getting worried about Disney going after them.  The HC team takes in money, donations, to keep the servers up.  But that is still an income off someone else's intellectual property.  The clowns that Disney sued weren't sitting on piles of gold, they were making a modest income to live off of.  But that's money that could have gone to Disney.  That's all that matters.

 

The monthly donations are money that(hypothetically) could have gone to Disney.  Is that stupid? Yes.  Is that petty? Yes.  Does Disney do stupid and petty things?  Yes. Will they win if they try? Maybe not.  Will it cost NCsoft thousands if not tens of thousands to fight a stupid and petty lawsuit in a different country?  Yes.

 

Will NCsoft set us all on fire and push us out to see rather then risk seriously risk a lawsuit?  Absolutely.

 

Do people constantly making use of Marvel/DC/Whoever's characters raise the likelyhood of lawsuit?  Even if infinitesimally so?  Yeah.

 

 

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

7 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

The thing is, Marvel can afford to keep it tied up in court for CENTURIES.

I have to ask, why would they want to here?  Sure, they have a lot more money now.  That does not mean they will just blow it all on frivolous lawsuits that do not really gain them anything and would generate a lot of bad press on their part.

[ABlueThingy]

2 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

LOL!  ok you go right on and keep moving the goalposts.  Have fun with that.

 

That's not goalpost moving.  There are multiple points to consider which we have said many times now.  What you are looking at is the supporting arguments.  There are multiple supporting arguments.  If you argue against one supporting argument and someone points out that there's still a dozen more that's not goalpost moving.  That's a nuanced discussion.

 

6 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Right because stealing their property from them isn't going to upset them....

See, that's a good point.  NCsoft should be mad.  But NCsoft is fully aware of what we're doing here and has not shut us down.  It has been stated that HC formally entered discussions with them about letting us continue here.  Thus far we do not know the results of said discussion, only that they have not shut us down yet.

 

That implies discussion is ongoing.  Which means selling the rights to HC is still on the table as far as we know. 

 

As long as we're acting in good faith, that still stands.  Hopefully.

 

Part of that means HC's GMs are going to very seriously enforce the IP rules on account of NCsoft getting burned in the past on that and NCsoft being scared of letting a pirate server put them in possible liability.  Because, again, as long as they are letting us run then they are tactfully endorsing us and endorsing whatever we do here.

 

So stop making clone characters.

 

 

[ABlueThingy]

9 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I have to ask, why would they want to here?  Sure, they have a lot more money now.  That does not mean they will just blow it all on frivolous lawsuits that do not really gain them anything and would generate a lot of bad press on their part.

If you don't do something when someone messes with your IP you are at risk of that being used against you later.

 

Failure to protect and IP is grounds for losing your trademark.  If Disney refused to act on people making their own Mickey Mouse movies and cartoons and what not they couldn't later on claim trademark infringement against someone making a Mickey Mouse hat.  They can just point out to the judge that Disney hasn't been enforcing it's IP on all these other people, it must mean it's public domain now.

 

Note that this only applies to Trademarks as I understand it.  Copyrights are for a set period of time.  Trademarks have to be defended.  That's one of the big differences between the ™ and the ©

---

 

Now again, it's not even Marvel/Disney that we should be worried about directly.  Because they wouldn't go after us.  They would go after NCsoft for letting us exist.  Just sending a "Hey, stop that shit" letter to NCsoft would likely be enough for them to bring the hammer down on us.  Takes Disney a few minutes to send or S.Korea. Takes NCsoft a few minutes to send the C/D to HC.  And boom, game over.

 

It's not going to say "Hey! We heard you let someone play Daddy-long-legs-man and we're gonna sue you!"

 

It's going to be more like "Hey, you've been letting a pirate server run and infringe on out IP without repercussion.  Sounds a little shady bro.  You got that relatively new CEO there and your Stocks were lookin' a little iffy there for a while bro.  Sure would be a shame if we had to do any... legal things... that might make you look like idiots.  You know, letting a pirate server run free and threaten Disney's IP. Of ALL companies."

(I like to imagine Disney is run by Arms Akimbo from Freakazoid)

 

Basically they just have to threaten NCsoft vaugely.  Send NCsoft a C/D that says "Stap."  Or NCsoft has to THINK they might do that.  And NCsoft will burn this whole thing down. 

 

No sane company is going to risk a lawsuit with Disney, even one they know they can win, to protect a pirate server.

 

[ShardWarrior]

17 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

See, that's a good point.  NCsoft should be mad.  But NCsoft is fully aware of what we're doing here and has not shut us down. 

I suppose it can be said that Marvel and Disney know what is happening here too and have not said anything yet.  People were making clones for quite a while here - even participating (and winning) some of the sponsored costume contests - and no one from Marvel or Disney said anything. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by ShardWarrior

[Bossk_Hogg]

16 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

 

The fact that they don't police every single instance at all times is irrelevant. Giant corporations like the rules to be huge and sweeping so they can enforce them or not as a threat.  It is absolutely the metaphorical sword of Damocles hanging over the server.   Just because you are unaware of the threat doesn't mean other people are blind to it.[/quote]

Where are the C&D's for fanart? For cosplayers? You been on Deviantart? Do you think Disney is unaware of them? They care if you try and make money off their IP. 

 

Concerns for this are a joke. It's like someone on a file sharing site specifically designed to distribute other's IP  andgetting all pissy about someone else using a copyright photo for their avatar. 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[ShardWarrior]

21 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

If you don't do something when someone messes with your IP you are at risk of that being used against you later.

Yes I know.  That is not the question I asked though.  Disney, Marvel, WB, EA, Blizzard - a whole slew of IP owning companies do not seem to be doing much of anything against sites like Deviantart where artists are charging for commissions of IP based characters.  I would near guarantee they know it is going on there.