The Great Tanker Disappearance

[Infinitum]

8 hours ago, Primantis said:

 

 

That's just it. When people say "Brutes make Tanks obsolete" they are generally referring to very niche situations.

 

End game Brutes, running meta secondaries, decked to the gills in IOs, incarnates, and a few juicy defenders tagging along. Until they reach that point there tends to be a noticeable gap in survivability.

 

 

 

I first mained a rad Elec brute that is res capped on everything except toxic, cold, and neg energy.  It was decent on those numbers as well.  I rolled brutes for a while, have 3 of them still active including the rad/Elec.  I had only rolled 1 tank at that point.

 

Once I switched back to tanks I now have 10 tanks and havent played the brutes in a while.

 

2 weeks ago during the ITF weekly run I ran on my main tank first the shield sj then I ran it it on the shield/Elec the rad rad and the shield dark.  Never had an issue, cake walk on +4/8.

 

When I rolled out the rad elec brute it was a struggle through the shadow cysts part, and they even got me once mainly because I had a false sense of security from playing the tanks and wasnt on my toes.

 

Its hard to go back to brutes when you have grown accustomed to the security a well built tank brings.  Even when compared to a similarly well built brute.

 

And yeah the scrapper brute comparison I'm with whoever said the increased damage and similar survivability puts scrappers ahead of brutes. 

 

Brutes are very niche, can be built tough and be single target monsters and second to none farmers, but for my perspective I'm rolling a tank or a scrapper for most things.

 

And I'm sure there's 10 score on here that will reject everything I've said here and that's ok too, because it's more a preference debate than anything.

[Camel]

I just recently rolled a Fire/Energy Tank and it’s been nothing but smooth sailing so far. He was an absolute monster in the TF Commander TFs being the highest DPS more often than not and also being practically invulnerable. Being able to use Burn (and many other amazing powers across other defensive sets) before level 20 is a game changer and exclusive to Tanks. The higher target cap and wider radius means you can carelessly throw out AoEs and still hit mobs despite bad positioning. This is my first Tank since the big changes and they are well received, as you can still make an invincible Tank meant purely for defense, or you can go for offense with sets like Bio, Fire and Shield and deal great damage. Pair those sets with any high damage secondary and you have an AoE burst machine that can hit more targets than anyone.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Camel

[Camel]

I’m also of the mindset where, outside of farming, why would anyone roll a Brute? Don’t get me wrong.. I love Brutes. But in general PvE gameplay, a Tank will be more survivable AND able to dish out similar damage while having a slight edge in AoE. And if you just wanted to focus on damage then a Scrapper is the superior option. Just an opinion though.

[VV]

6 hours ago, Seigmoraig said:

Bruising was a 20% resistable and unstackable -res debuff off the t1 attack, so single target.

WAIT, people use the T1 attack on Tanks??? Damn, that's like nerfing yourself. (TBH, I will use it when SKed really low and most of my attacks are grayed, but that's it, and at that point, the Prestige attacks become useful, so it doesn't really matter.)

[Seigmoraig]

18 minutes ago, VV said:

WAIT, people use the T1 attack on Tanks??? Damn, that's like nerfing yourself. (TBH, I will use it when SKed really low and most of my attacks are grayed, but that's it, and at that point, the Prestige attacks become useful, so it doesn't really matter.)

Apparently the guy I was quoting does and is really pissed off that he doesn't need to anymore ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited May 5, 2020 by Seigmoraig

[VV]

Damn, I'm surprised to see so much agreement with my Brutes-are-blah stance! The difference between in-game and forums, I guess. Smart people use the forums to be informed. 

 

One thing I've never really understood with the pro-Brute crowd. They always talk about how you can match Tankers armor levels on Brutes, they both max out at 90 Res. While this is true, you have to build to it a lot harder on Brutes, potentially giving up other stuff, like damage.

 

I will say, I might be biased because I have mained a F^3 tank forever. Damage is outrageous, and durability is solid. When soloing, she can take most anything that any other tanker or brute could solo (although Ghost Widow AV did f her day up, but only because I wasn't ready). In teams, with the buffs and such, her armors easily reach cap. The only thing she lacks is the self-healing to Hami tank, although I haven't tested that. Anyway, I say that to say that the people who say Brutes do so much more damage, well I just don't care. My F^3 monsters through stuff at high speed. Shaving a few seconds, even if it were true, is just not exciting.

 

Oh, and she also completes the fire farm at nearly the same speed as a Brute without the need to constantly convert/buy and suck purples. Sorry to vent, just had to get that out.

[lemming]

I'm pretty casual on my playing, but I've enjoyed the update to tanks & brutes.   My brute builds up fury faster and my tank seems to be able to do more damage.

Honestly when I choose between Tank, Brute, and Scrapper it's more dependent on what I feel the character should be.

Looking at my numbers of Alts, Three Scrappers, Five Tanks, Six Brutes, and a Stalker.  My main is a Scrapper.  (Out of 38 chars  Sentinels & Blasters also get six variations for more interesting combos really)

I play my brutes & scrappers interchangeably.  Tanks are different in that you are trying to draw agro off others, though I find them easy to solo most content.

 

[VV]

On 4/28/2020 at 12:54 AM, 00Troy00 said:

I played from i3 until the last 6-8 months before Shutdown. I remember tanks being MUCH more plentiful on live than what I've observed since finding my way to Homecoming. Why is that? Did they get nerfed all yo hell or something? Has the tankers role changed somehow?

Oh, nobody has really answered this completely. The main reason they were so plentiful on Live was because they were the easiest to solo on Blue side. Not the fastest, not the most efficient, but the easiest. I guess I could say the newb-friendliest. Some might argue that it was Scrappers, but those took some skill to solo. I'm talking about just if you were completely new and wanted to just pound stuff without sucking dirt all the time, tank was the go to. There were MANY MANY bad tankers on Live, people who usually soloed and had no actual idea how to tank. That is much less true now.

 

It is true that Brute is the most popular, now.  Even aside from farming, you are looking at the same thing as before.Brute is now the easiest newbie soloer or for people who just want to pound stuff without worrying about IOs and strategy and all that shit. Still very tough, with a bit more damage than a similarly poorly slotted tank. Plus, it just sounds neato to be a "Brute". (Has anyone else noticed that Brutes costumes tend to be the most massive size possible?)

[NEW DAWN]

Tankers are less important to a team as the game goes on, good, I remember people waiting around for what a tank does first, yeah it was often necessary but it made one player the keyplayer and everyone else more of the sidekick. 

 

Brutes can do some of the job, Scrappers can do some of the job, other ATs can make the job less necessary, good. It's vitally important that people aren't sidekicks.

 

What you will see though, is some Tankers fully commit to every aspect of Tanking they can and it can and will always make a good difference, you won't see that with Brutes, you won't see it with Scrappers, and even their played by someone who knows how to fully commit to every aspect of Tanking.

 

My idea of a good game is where everyone has the opportunity to look good but in some circumstances for some people what they do is unnoticeable. A great team is a sum of all parts. 

 

I can taunt control so many AVs/GMs on any type of Tanker/Brute/Scrapper and make defenders/controllers etc unnecessary if they weren't in team but if they are in team then there are benefits so the swing goes both ways

 

Reason to pick and play a Tank therefore is to commit to every aspect of Tanking. It's not a Brute, it's not a Scrapper. No one should have to switch toons and more than one in team is far too many imo, but can be okay done right so Tanker population shouldn't be an issue.

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by NEW DAWN

[Primantis]

2 hours ago, NEW DAWN said:

 

What you will see though, is some Tankers fully commit to every aspect of Tanking they can and it can and will always make a good difference, you won't see that with Brutes, you won't see it with Scrappers, and even their played by someone who knows how to fully commit to every aspect of Tanking.

 

 

 

 

This is pretty important. Sure Brutes can tank, but many Brute players just wanna smash things. "tanking" is just as secondary effect of their play style..  If you want someone who will actively try to protect the group, then your odds are better with an actual Tanker.

 

 

 

[Heraclea]

I've been tinkering around with AE lately.  The missions I've been playing all have escorts.  It's a lot easier to keep the escorts alive playing a tanker than it is with a brute. 

[BumbleBuzz]

22 hours ago, Camel said:

I just recently rolled a Fire/Energy Tank and it’s been nothing but smooth sailing so far. He was an absolute monster in the TF Commander TFs being the highest DPS more often than not and also being practically invulnerable. Being able to use Burn (and many other amazing powers across other defensive sets) before level 20 is a game changer and exclusive to Tanks. The higher target cap and wider radius means you can carelessly throw out AoEs and still hit mobs despite bad positioning. This is my first Tank since the big changes and they are well received, as you can still make an invincible Tank meant purely for defense, or you can go for offense with sets like Bio, Fire and Shield and deal great damage. Pair those sets with any high damage secondary and you have an AoE burst machine that can hit more targets than anyone.

I recreated my Fire/EM tank from Live awhile back.  I got her to 50 on live but never really went too far past that, as the ability to get the Incarnate powers slotted out required a huge time commitment.  But on Homecoming?  She's a DEATH MACHINE.  Oh my God the amount of damage she deals and can Tank is RIDICULOUS.  I'm running Dark Astoria at +4/x8.  Yeah it's a challenge and I have to stay on my toes but man I clear 4-5 pips per mission.  Getting her levelled up to build out her Incarnate abilities is WAAAAAAY easier than my Scrapper.  Lots of fun too!

[Nemu]

Maybe there are less tanks because those that want to tank are playing squishies first to learn what squishies are vulnerable to so they can understand target prioritization, LOS, aggro radius and all that good stuff so they can be the bestest tank evar!

 

That's my story and I'm sticking with it!

 

[VV]

14 hours ago, Primantis said:

This is pretty important. Sure Brutes can tank, but many Brute players just wanna smash things. "tanking" is just as secondary effect of their play style..  If you want someone who will actively try to protect the group, then your odds are better with an actual Tanker.

23 hours ago, lemming said:

Honestly when I choose between Tank, Brute, and Scrapper it's more dependent on what I feel the character should be.

These points are related. I do the same, pick AT for character theme and playstyle. I tried building a couple of Brutes focusing on damage, rather than armor. They still had decent armor, of course, but not near Tank level. The problem I have found with this is that lots of people expect Brutes to tank. So, I have decided to stick with Tanks to tank, and Scrappers to damage.

2 hours ago, BumbleBuzz said:

I'm running Dark Astoria at +4/x8.

Yeah. I ran the whole DA Arc, up to and including Mot, on 4x8xAV, solo on my F^3. I did need to have a little help with Mot and got a Sentinal to come duo it with me. Even he commented on my damage output. But, now you guys are making me want to try an /En tank, I wonder if it does more.

[Camel]

1 hour ago, VV said:

These points are related. I do the same, pick AT for character theme and playstyle. I tried building a couple of Brutes focusing on damage, rather than armor. They still had decent armor, of course, but not near Tank level. The problem I have found with this is that lots of people expect Brutes to tank. So, I have decided to stick with Tanks to tank, and Scrappers to damage.

Yeah. I ran the whole DA Arc, up to and including Mot, on 4x8xAV, solo on my F^3. I did need to have a little help with Mot and got a Sentinal to come duo it with me. Even he commented on my damage output. But, now you guys are making me want to try an /En tank, I wonder if it does more.

Fire/Energy is a blast and a +1 for nostalgia. It might not be obvious to pair it with Fire Armor but it has a synergy I think is often overlooked. That being Fiery Embrace and how it’s damage bonus is a % of the damage dealt by your attacks. Since Energy Transfer and Total Focus have such a huge base damage, they coincidentally  get HUGE damage increases when buffed by Build Up & Guassains Proc + Fiery Embrace. Solo I could hit mobs for 1k+ with ET and TF both. On teams I’ve seen over 3k damage at +2 with a Kinetics on the team and several debuffers. Another thing to note is that if you have enough +recharge from your build and teammates, you can run an attack chain of Burn -> Energy Transfer -> Total Focus with only fractions of a second between another full cycle, just enough time to use Taunt and some other powers. 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Camel

[Apparition]

It depends on what power sets you want to play.  If you want to play Energy Aura or Regen, Brutes it is since neither are available on Tankers.  If you want to play Fiery Melee, Brutes it is 'cause you have to take Scorch on Tanker, and... ugh.  

[Heraclea]

14 hours ago, Camel said:

Fire/Energy is a blast and a +1 for nostalgia. It might not be obvious to pair it with Fire Armor but it has a synergy I think is often overlooked.

I used to have a Fire/Energy tanker on Victory.  She got stripped and sent to Champion after the energy melee changes; she still relied way too much on her self heal, and making animations much longer put it out of reach too often.  Have the Homecoming AoE changes improved the playability of the set? 

 

I did remake the Fire Armor character that replaced her (Fire/Dual Blades) as a brute.  Did not take Fiery Embrace; my impression was that it did not benefit a non-Fire Melee character that much.  Is that also a mistake?

[Seigmoraig]

59 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

I did remake the Fire Armor character that replaced her (Fire/Dual Blades) as a brute.  Did not take Fiery Embrace; my impression was that it did not benefit a non-Fire Melee character that much.  Is that also a mistake?

Yes, it has the same effect on any character. It's basically a second Build Up type power

[Bronana16969]

57 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Did not take Fiery Embrace; my impression was that it did not benefit a non-Fire Melee character that much.  Is that also a mistake?

Yes.. it adds flat fire damage to your attacks. Which adds up fast.  FE does give fire powers an extra 20 or 30% +dmg compared to the 80%(?) It gives everything else. Its essentially another Build Up at it's core.

[VV]

5 hours ago, Heraclea said:

Did not take Fiery Embrace; my impression was that it did not benefit a non-Fire Melee character that much.

What did you take in it's place?

[Camel]

4 hours ago, Bronana16969 said:

Yes.. it adds flat fire damage to your attacks. Which adds up fast.  FE does give fire powers an extra 20 or 30% +dmg compared to the 80%(?) It gives everything else. Its essentially another Build Up at it's core.

The difference between FE and BU though is FE is more like proc damage. The damage bonus you get is directly related to how much initial damage you do. That’s why a power like Knockout Blow, Total Focus, Energy Transfer, etc receive the most benefit. Since they’re base damage is huge, they get a large chuck of extra damage as fire damage. FE will even push you PAST the damage cap as well. I’ve seen my Energy Transfers extra fire damage hit for 400+ on the regular at +4 and at +0 a fully self buffed Energy Transfer can deal over 1k sometimes.

[Camel]

5 hours ago, Heraclea said:

I used to have a Fire/Energy tanker on Victory.  She got stripped and sent to Champion after the energy melee changes; she still relied way too much on her self heal, and making animations much longer put it out of reach too often.  Have the Homecoming AoE changes improved the playability of the set? 

 

I did remake the Fire Armor character that replaced her (Fire/Dual Blades) as a brute.  Did not take Fiery Embrace; my impression was that it did not benefit a non-Fire Melee character that much.  Is that also a mistake?

A lot of changes have improved the set. It’s not top tier by any means, I’d say it’s best gimmick is the insane amount of burst damage you can do with Burn -> Energy Transfer -> Total Focus. The ATO sets, the ease of access for top tier IOs, the damage modifier increase and AoE/Aggro cap increase make this set feel wonderful. I have a “guide” in the works for Fire/Energy, it should be posted later today. 

[Heraclea]

1 hour ago, VV said:

What did you take in it's place?

I took all of Dual Blades, wanting a whole-game character.   Having several skippable powers in Fire always was one of the attractions of the Fire/DB pairing,

[Camel]

1 hour ago, Heraclea said:

I took all of Dual Blades, wanting a whole-game character.   Having several skippable powers in Fire always was one of the attractions of the Fire/DB pairing,

I would argue that the only skippable power is Rise of the Phoenix. And even then, since Fiery Aura has no DDR and can face plant easier than most, even RotP could be used to great effect. I’ve had a theory that a suicide Fiery Aura Tanker would be a legitimate strategy, but never did it because I don’t want to die as a Tank lol. Some people skip Temperature Protection, again, an extremely vital power offering slow resist, Cold resist and a place to slot your KB protection IOs, your psi resists IOs and the 2 +def IOs. I just don’t see a scenario where a Fiery Aura Tank without Temperature Protection would have better slotting, resists, and defenses than a Tanker with TP.

[Seigmoraig]

14 minutes ago, Camel said:

I would argue that the only skippable power is Rise of the Phoenix. And even then, since Fiery Aura has no DDR and can face plant easier than most, even RotP could be used to great effect. I’ve had a theory that a suicide Fiery Aura Tanker would be a legitimate strategy, but never did it because I don’t want to die as a Tank lol. Some people skip Temperature Protection, again, an extremely vital power offering slow resist, Cold resist and a place to slot your KB protection IOs, your psi resists IOs and the 2 +def IOs. I just don’t see a scenario where a Fiery Aura Tank without Temperature Protection would have better slotting, resists, and defenses than a Tanker with TP.

Certainly the only 100% skippable power in Fiery Aura is Rise of the Phoenix because you can buy a similar if less spectacular power from the P2W lady for 1mill inf. The argument could be made that Consume is skippable if your build is end positive. Other than those 2 though I wouldn't skip anything in it

Edited May 7, 2020 by Seigmoraig