Build up and Melee Set Themes.

[ryuplaneswalker]

So the weekly discussion about animations made me consider something I never had before.

 

Build Up is a terrible power, not in terms of effectiveness but in terms of Thematics. Almost all of the melee attack sets have Build up as their Damage Boost Cooldown power, the ones that don't tend to have powers in place that are far more flavorful and thematic in their place. Claws has Follow Up, Titan Weapons has Build up that grants Momentum, Dark Melee has Soul Drain. The non-stalker versions of Savage Melee completely lack Build up, the damage boost being inherent in Blood Frenzy. My suggestion is that all of the sets that have Build up replaced by something that has a similar function (to hit buff, damage buff).

 

Now I don't have an idea for everything, but I do have a pair idea for a couple of the sets.

 

Katana - Iaijutu - The flavor would be the Anime/Samurai Movie trope of Drawing and attacking. (See Ruroni Kenshin's ultimate attack as well as Roronora Zoro ocassionally). And the effect would be you gain a larger damage buff for your next attack. The Normal amount of To Hit, but damage would be Obscenely high for Brutes, pretty high for Stalkers since they have a massive attack to automatically crit with and and larger than Build Up for scrappers while also causing their next attack to automatically crit as to not cause problems with removing the chain of "Build up -> Scrapper ATO proc attack -> Biggest attack" which Scrappers have now.

 

Fire Melee - Kindling - The flavor would be that the user's inner temperature ebbs and flows, you can turn up the heat on your flames, but - Effect, a passive power that cycles between different to hit/damage buff tiers, starting low going high and cycling back down to low. 

[Hyperstrike]

I look at the ToHit/Damage boost clickies as "take a DEEEEEEEEP breath, give them the hairy eyeball, then smack the **BLEEP!!!** as hard as you possibly can...

[Saiyajinzoningen]

I dunno, I find i use build up and aim at the start of the fights but once the rotation is going i dont really use them anymore. So build up aim as useful as they are become more of a situational power. A few powersets already have some other mechanic built in that renders buildup redundant. As for your Iaijutu idea i think ninja training > Shinobi power for blasters is what you are describing. I do like the idea of making BU/A powers more efficient. so heres my suggestions

 

Blasters/Defender/Corrupters

Replace Build up with:  Accrue Velocity - Toggle cost .56 | Ranged attacks increase in damage as they travel, 10% melee range / 20% mid range / 30% long range.

Replace Aim with       : Sure Shot - Toggle cost .56          |  Attack Accuracy increases based on proximity 30% melee range / 20% mid range / 30% long range.

When Velocity and sure shot are used together their effects are cancelled and a unique ability is applied

                                : Juxtapose - Toggle Cost .25          | Increase damage/accuracy of all attack by 20% from all distances.

 

Stalkers:

Replace Build up with: Double cross - Passive skill           | 100% chance to perform crit when attacking from the back.

 

Scrappers:

Replace Build up with: Fearless - passive skill                   | When facing an opponent head on +15% chance to crit (In addition to normal chance to crit, Aoes are unaffected by this power)

 

Brutes:

Replace Build up with: Ire - Passive skill                           | When taking damage 5% chance to recharge a random power. (not affected by dots also does not affect t9's)

 

Tanks:

Replace Build up with: Deflecting Flex - Toggle .56           | Returns 3% of damage taken as smashing damage

 

 

 

 

[SurfD]

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

Stalkers:

Replace Build up with: Double cross - Passive skill           | 100% chance to perform crit when attacking from the back.

 

Scrappers:

Replace Build up with: Fearless - passive skill                   | When facing an opponent head on +15% chance to crit (In addition to normal chance to crit, Aoes are unaffected by this power)

 

Tanks:

Replace Build up with: Deflecting Flex - Toggle .56           | Returns 3% of damage taken as smashing damage

Couple of problems here:

Now, I may be wrong, but as far as I know, the game has no checking for "front vs back" positionals, so your Stalker/Scrapper idea wouldn't work.   The game literally has no way of knowing if you are in front of or behind a target, only that you are "facing" them.

 

Also, both of those passives would be overkill unless there was some kind of internal PPM on them.  Stalkers with permanent 100% to crit from behind would be absolute monsters when paired with any kind of tank, and would feel crazy under-powered when soloing by comparison (where it's basically impossible to get behind something after the first hit), meanwhile Scrappers would basically have a permanent extra 15% chance to crit because they would always be able to stay "in front" of the target, which would kind of be a bit overpowered.

 

Might be viable if there was a PPM rate on the extra crit chance, and it was changed to "target" based? 

- Scrapper gets their full bonus if the target is targeting the scrapper, reduced bonus if the target is targeting someone else.

- Stalker gets their 100% crit chance with a PPM limit when the target is NOT targeting the Stalker, and get a reduced bonus (either lower PPM or Lower Crit % Chance) when the target is targeting them).

(reduced bonus helps so the Stalker doesn't get completely boned out of the effect while soloing).

 

As for your Tank replacement, I believe I recall someone mentioning that the combat code does not allow for reflected damage, so Deflecting Flex wouldn't work.   Maybe something like "Right Back At Ya", which returns a % of damage that was (or would have been) taken in the last X seconds could work, but I have no idea if it would be possible to code something that, as it would need to be able to figure out damage that COULD have been taken even though it wasn't (since most tanks are built to avoid and mitigate the shit out of everything these days).

[Saiyajinzoningen]

30 minutes ago, SurfD said:

Couple of problems here:

Now, I may be wrong, but as far as I know, the game has no checking for "front vs back" positionals, so your Stalker/Scrapper idea wouldn't work.   The game literally has no way of knowing if you are in front of or behind a target, only that you are "facing" them.

 

Also, both of those passives would be overkill unless there was some kind of internal PPM on them.  Stalkers with permanent 100% to crit from behind would be absolute monsters when paired with any kind of tank, and would feel crazy under-powered when soloing by comparison (where it's basically impossible to get behind something after the first hit), meanwhile Scrappers would basically have a permanent extra 15% chance to crit because they would always be able to stay "in front" of the target, which would kind of be a bit overpowered.

 

Might be viable if there was a PPM rate on the extra crit chance, and it was changed to "target" based? 

- Scrapper gets their full bonus if the target is targeting the scrapper, reduced bonus if the target is targeting someone else.

- Stalker gets their 100% crit chance with a PPM limit when the target is NOT targeting the Stalker, and get a reduced bonus (either lower PPM or Lower Crit % Chance) when the target is targeting them).

(reduced bonus helps so the Stalker doesn't get completely boned out of the effect while soloing).

 

As for your Tank replacement, I believe I recall someone mentioning that the combat code does not allow for reflected damage, so Deflecting Flex wouldn't work.   Maybe something like "Right Back At Ya", which returns a % of damage that was (or would have been) taken in the last X seconds could work, but I have no idea if it would be possible to code something that, as it would need to be able to figure out damage that COULD have been taken even though it wasn't (since most tanks are built to avoid and mitigate the shit out of everything these days).

wow man this is awesome. To give a "seamless" play feel since stalkers paired up would be monsters as u say. How about when executing back stab, Hide isnt broken so u can effectively go around backstabbing pretty quickly while solo. I know this seems op but remember most stalkers are single target and as much as i hate to admit it this is an aoe game. more single target damage might even out the playing field. I do like your whole targeting approach tho, an elegant solution.

 

Well the game does keep track of how much damage you take and there's even a cumulative meter of some sort (for the badge). So using that we can try this.

An passive power that autofires when you have taken 1000 pts of dmg it does a pbaoe of  300 damage cannot go off more than 20x per min

 

 

[ryuplaneswalker]

13 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

I dunno, I find i use build up and aim at the start of the fights but once the rotation is going i dont really use them anymore. So build up aim as useful as they are become more of a situational power. A few powersets already have some other mechanic built in that renders buildup redundant. As for your Iaijutu idea i think ninja training > Shinobi power for blasters is what you are describing. I do like the idea of making BU/A powers more efficient. so heres my suggestions

 

Blasters/Defender/Corrupters

Replace Build up with:  Accrue Velocity - Toggle cost .56 | Ranged attacks increase in damage as they travel, 10% melee range / 20% mid range / 30% long range.

Replace Aim with       : Sure Shot - Toggle cost .56          |  Attack Accuracy increases based on proximity 30% melee range / 20% mid range / 30% long range.

When Velocity and sure shot are used together their effects are cancelled and a unique ability is applied

                                : Juxtapose - Toggle Cost .25          | Increase damage/accuracy of all attack by 20% from all distances.

 

Stalkers:

Replace Build up with: Double cross - Passive skill           | 100% chance to perform crit when attacking from the back.

 

Scrappers:

Replace Build up with: Fearless - passive skill                   | When facing an opponent head on +15% chance to crit (In addition to normal chance to crit, Aoes are unaffected by this power)

 

Brutes:

Replace Build up with: Ire - Passive skill                           | When taking damage 5% chance to recharge a random power. (not affected by dots also does not affect t9's)

 

Tanks:

Replace Build up with: Deflecting Flex - Toggle .56           | Returns 3% of damage taken as smashing damage

 

That doesn't fix the problem that many of the melee sets would still feel the same, I tend to feel that the ATs have enough variety to not worry, my suggestion has more to do with the Individual sets.

 

Quote

I look at the ToHit/Damage boost clickies as "take a DEEEEEEEEP breath, give them the hairy eyeball, then smack the **BLEEP!!!** as hard as you possibly can...

That is kind of my point, one of the biggest strengths of City of Heroes is that sets have strong Thematic Elements, why would every Melee set (and many of the blaster sets) that all have wildly different Themes all..empower themselves in the same maner.

Edited May 8, 2020 by ryuplaneswalker

[Galaxy Brain]

I am 100% in favor of making more thematic self buffs, I've even made a similar thread that's buried somewhere!

 

I do wish that the alternate power choices were viable for a case like this tho. For example, the player could choose between BU/Aim or a thematic variant that trades some of X for Y

[Naraka]

I wouldn't be against altering some melee self-buffs to be more thematic but I'd also caveat that to aim the direct of said change to keep the buff "in set".  Powers like Combat Readiness works in this regard, giving you Combo lvl 3 upon clicking it which is an in-set bonus.

 

If Energy Melee gets the changes that Energy Assault got, it's BU could be changed to give it a lower +dmg buff but a constant "Charged" effect for its duration.  What that charged effect does will mostly depend on what the powers within the set are changed to do.

 

The OP's Iaijutsu change to Katana's BU I'd likely limit to only Katana Powers rather than a generic +dmg buff or +crit chance buff.  This is thematic since you can't perform Iaijutsu with a Mace (mace mastery) or a fire blast or some such.  Making it so, for example, Golden Dragonfly has a wider arc but no +dmg or adding +lethal damage to your next Katana attack would be a good consolation if the damage bonus was tone back some and the majority of the buff was centered only around your main attacks.

[ryuplaneswalker]

9 hours ago, Naraka said:

I wouldn't be against altering some melee self-buffs to be more thematic but I'd also caveat that to aim the direct of said change to keep the buff "in set".  Powers like Combat Readiness works in this regard, giving you Combo lvl 3 upon clicking it which is an in-set bonus.

 

If Energy Melee gets the changes that Energy Assault got, it's BU could be changed to give it a lower +dmg buff but a constant "Charged" effect for its duration.  What that charged effect does will mostly depend on what the powers within the set are changed to do.

 

The OP's Iaijutsu change to Katana's BU I'd likely limit to only Katana Powers rather than a generic +dmg buff or +crit chance buff.  This is thematic since you can't perform Iaijutsu with a Mace (mace mastery) or a fire blast or some such.  Making it so, for example, Golden Dragonfly has a wider arc but no +dmg or adding +lethal damage to your next Katana attack would be a good consolation if the damage bonus was tone back some and the majority of the buff was centered only around your main attacks.

Well I would suggest that every set get's its own thing, I just didn't want to go through the list of every melee set and have an OP that is 4 Paragraphs of potential powers.

[Naraka]

7 hours ago, ryuplaneswalker said:

Well I would suggest that every set get's its own thing, I just didn't want to go through the list of every melee set and have an OP that is 4 Paragraphs of potential powers.

Why not? I'd assume we all have some ideas of our own or opinions on what some ideas might be for such powers.  Was thinking of posting a few more ideas but I'll just hold off to give others a chance.

 

I think the only exception I'd give is to Stalkers.  I think BU works perfectly for them.  You could give some alternate effects for their AS from Hide instead.

 

 

[megaericzero]

Personally, I like the way Aim and Build Up are - both mechanically and thematically.

 

It would be interesting to give each set's version a unique name and more overt, thematic visual/sound effects.

Maybe an additional buff effect relevant to the common secondary effect of the set's damaging powers.

 

I don't think their general function should change, though.

[Chance Jackson]

I like your iajutsu idea but I also like pure build ups and at that I like them more than the quasi build ups like what StJ gets 

 

Something I have thought for awhile is that melee weapon sets should get bonus dmg on the first attack right after unholstering a weapon in the same vein as iajutsu(kind of)

Edited May 14, 2020 by Chance Jackson

[ryuplaneswalker]

On 5/13/2020 at 9:30 PM, Chance Jackson said:

I like your iajutsu idea but I also like pure build ups and at that I like them more than the quasi build ups like what StJ gets 

 

Something I have thought for awhile is that melee weapon sets should get bonus dmg on the first attack right after unholstering a weapon in the same vein as iajutsu(kind of)

I mean, Build up as an effect is powerful, that is not something I argue, but the sets that have the quasi build ups tend to be on the more flavorful end of the spectrum.