War Mace vs. Battle Axe

[Shocktacular]

I was just looking through different primary powersets, and I noticed that War Mace and Battle Axe look very, very similar.  I know that War Mace does Smashing damage while Battle Axe does Lethal damage, but other than that, they seem basically the same.  What are the benefits and downsides of each?  How do they compare?  Do you have any preferences one way or the other?

(Also, which is greater: "Extreme" damage or "Superior" damage?)

[Nayeh]

I have never used Battle Axe but I can say War Mace is extremely satisfying to play. I don't really have anything negative to say about it besides it being a tad endurance heavy.

[Frostweaver]

Extreme damage is generally higher Damage per attack, but superior is often better DPS (lower recharge times)

War Mace/EA is strong and Pretty, Battle Axe is not.

Seriously, though, war mace has more weapon graphics, (Bat, Carnie hammer, sledge, a lot of nice ones) and smashing damage, while resisted as often as lethal, seems to be resisted a lot less completely.... War robots are just miserable for most lethal sets.

The big differences though are clobber, which does sick damage versus battleaxe swoop, and crowd control, which does almost as much damage as pendulum but has a much better recharge. Other than that, though, they actually perform fairly similarly.

But with Clobber, War Mace proves that it is what Titan Weapons wants to grow up to be 🙂  Mostly because WM can use shield, and TW cannot.

Broadsword is also very similar, but gives up it's tier 5 'big damage single target' for parry.... which, while an amazing power, still slows down dps significantly versus hard targets, and replaces it's tier 9 melee cone with the big damage that should have been in tier 5, costing it some aoe in the long run. (Katana does the same thing but cannot be used with shield, which makes it inferior unless 'sick damage' is not your goal)

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Frostweaver
Okay, to be fair, Katana is better for very 'clicky' secondaries like regen and ninjutsu where getting a fast defense boost is a lifesaver... but broadsword is better with shield defense or on a stalker, where it's big damage from hide make a difference

[Golden Azrael]

11 hours ago, Shocktacular said:

I was just looking through different primary powersets, and I noticed that War Mace and Battle Axe look very, very similar.  I know that War Mace does Smashing damage while Battle Axe does Lethal damage, but other than that, they seem basically the same.  What are the benefits and downsides of each?  How do they compare?  Do you have any preferences one way or the other?

(Also, which is greater: "Extreme" damage or "Superior" damage?)

Hello Shock'.

 

War Mace and Battle Axe are very similar.  War Mace is 'better' but Battle Axe is still fun and it hurts with it's knock up and down and decent AOEs.  I think Battle Axe was derived from War Mace.  (Hey, another way to get a good attack set in the game.)

 

War Mace seems a touch quicker and more damaging.

 

That said, I played a brute alongside my DUO partner.  They went War mace (I'd already done that on live...on my elec /Mac tanker...great fun...) so I went Battle Axe as I had never tried it. 

 

On two brutes?  We'd crunch out the mobs.  Crunch....spin...(the AoEs are great fun for mob melting...) upper cut...smack down attacks.  It's very two dimensional but great fun in the way that pressing 'that button' never gets boring.  The hamburger that always hits the spot in battle.

 

Plus.  As brutes?  The madder Bulk gets...

 

Extreme damage is better than Superior. 

 

Try both up to L8 on a brute and see which one bakes your cake.

 

My pref' was War Mace.  But I have to say I really like Battle Axe.  They both grow in stature with the fury bar...before you know it you'll be two shotting mobs.

 

That much fun shouldn't be allowed.  Meanwhile EM lacks such impetus.  But that's a separate discussion.

 

My brute is Shields/B Axe by the way and L50.  Shield charge and those BA aoes...  Mobs find it hard going.  Great sets.

 

There is a lovely 'smooth' (bloody?) poetry about Axe or Mace...  The ballet of mob death.

 

I'd try EA/War Mace 1st...  then try a Shield BAxe after.  It was seeing a scrapper running shield baxe that made me want to try it.  And I hasn't done Axe on live.

 

Azrael.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[InvaderStych]

On Live I used WM, but whichever you pick pair it with Shield.

 

Thank me later. 😄

 

[SuperPlyx]

Crowd Control slotted right is an extremely fun attack.

 

[Frostweaver]

*crunch* and what doesn't die in front of you is trying to get up on broken legs.
Excuse me 'arrested'

[Psyonico]

My understanding is axe is slower but does more damage per attack, while mace is faster but does slightly less damage per attack.

 

Also, axe purely has knockdown as a secondary, while mace has since stun mixed in there too

[Tath99]

On 5/17/2020 at 5:55 PM, InvaderStych said:

On Live I used WM, but whichever you pick pair it with Shield.

 

Thank me later. 😄

 

Heh.  I broke the mould and went WM / Regen on my Brute.  At one point Azrael's BA/Shield was puffing and panting and taking hits whilst I just kept on going because of [Quick Recovery].

 

Shield *is* a good pick.  But Regeneration works too these days.  Both WM and BA have excellent mitigation.

 

You might also want to the sound effects when making the choice too.  Both have nice impactful sounds.   You might prefer one over the other?  You might also have a preference when it comes to weapon customisation.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Tath99

[Golden Azrael]

20 hours ago, Tath99 said:

Heh.  I broke the mould and went WM / Regen on my Brute.  At one point Azrael's BA/Shield was puffing and panting and taking hits whilst I just kept on going because of [Quick Recovery].

 

Shield *is* a good pick.  But Regeneration works too these days.  Both WM and BA have excellent mitigation.

 

You might also want to the sound effects when making the choice too.  Both have nice impactful sounds.   You might prefer one over the other?  You might also have a preference when it comes to weapon customisation.

 

 

 

 

WM/Regen is a sound (unfashionable but insightful) choice and proved its worth in combat.  Occasionally susceptible to the alpha but with a shield charge/battle axe brute to follow you in...not too perilous.

 

Quick Recovery offers gallons and gallons of end *though it won't stop it going down in really intense battles...* but most of the time is solid blue. 

 

Yes, Shield does puff and pant (*cheeky*) on it's way to about L45...then the tide starts to turn somewhat.  (But Shield doesn't have the end or heal recovery of Regen...ofc 😛 )  I recall having 3 uniques for the plus end proc return and I was STILL having end issues in prolonged battles, despite double SO'ing the heavy attacks.

 

With extra set building...and hitting...

 

L50 with Agility (I think I took...) these 'out of breaths' are almost gone completely...along with hitting harder with Assault means the battles don't take as long.  So more end, battles taking less time due to increased damage.  I was about at the soft cap last I checked.  So I don't get hurt as much so don't need to heal (or pop greens in my case...) and yes.  End.  Pretty much a problem consigned to history.  Shield Charge is a good fulcrum in mitigating heal hurt and end expenditure.

 

I'm almost of the opinion that I should have rolled a 'tank' version of Shield with BAxe allowing Tath to do the chief damage.  Still, I can build more res' into the brute.

 

Playing two brutes back to back is quite fun.  1st time we've done that.  You get to see their damage power grow over time.  They munch small encounter mobs for breakfast.

 

And?

 

Relentless.  For those who like to push the boat out into enemy territories with skirmish flakes for breakfast.

 

Whilst Shield is fashionable...(and I can rec' it with Battle Axe...) 

 

If you haven't rolled a War Mace Regen.  What are you waiting for?  You want fun, right..?

 

Sound fx.  Satisfying chud, thuds...etc.  The you know when you've been hit sfx.  Teh hammer, it doth smite them...

 

Azrael.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[eknudson]

I've run Battle Axe and War Mace on brutes, and the two have a lot in common, yes.

 

War Mace is just generally better. More and more interesting weapon options, smashing damage (which is much less resisted than lethal) and while most powers are near-identical there are some differences. Clobber is easily better than Swoop. Clobber is just ridiculously good, extreme damage in only 1.23 seconds of animation with a mag 3 stun-- swoop recharges faster but it's less damage and knockup. Shatter is far easier to use as an AoE than Cleave. Cleave hits hard but it's a 20 degree "cone"-- really it's a straight line but it IS 10' of straight line so there's that. Pendulum is arguably even better than Crowd Control.

 

Battle Axe also lacks really any mitigation against knock resistant foes (like Cimerorans most of the time) and could use a better tool to take annoying critters like Sappers out of action quickly. Swoop has to do for that but it's not ideal. Really in my experience there's very little reason to pick Axe over Mace other than theme. I'm not saying Axe is terrible, just that Mace is as good or better in virtually every way and the imbalanced amount of lethal resistance in the game is noticeable.

[drbuzzard]

On 5/17/2020 at 10:50 AM, Golden Azrael said:

Hello Shock'.

 

War Mace and Battle Axe are very similar.  War Mace is 'better' but Battle Axe is still fun and it hurts with it's knock up and down and decent AOEs.  I think Battle Axe was derived from War Mace.  (Hey, another way to get a good attack set in the game.)

 

 

War mace and battle axes were 2 of the original tanker sets from the start of the game. Initially clobber was a no damage stun attack, and war mace was universally seen as one of the weakest tanker secondaries (ice melee was the other bad one back then). It was demonstrated enough times how bad that WM was so the devs made clobber into the badass attack it now is, and it completely changed the tone and quality of the set. It became a good single target set with also good AOE capability. At this point battle axe is the one that lags. 

 

I was thinking of making a new alt, and while I had an axe guy back on live, I could not bring myself to make another one when I know how weak it is. I endorse WM any day, but would not encourage anyone to do BA. 

[Golden Azrael]

Your comments on War Mace are spot on.  It's the superior set, of course.  I could well have seen Clobber as a 'Stun' (EM's 'Stun' could learn something from that...ie add some damage to it...)- that makes sense.  Good that the dev's beefed it up....War Mace is a rare breed with great single target and sound AoE. 

 

As for Battle Axe.  Whilst it doesn't quite hit the heights of War Mace it's certainly not 'weak.'  It's just not quite as good.  I can go into mobs and hurt them a plenty with it.  And the knockback is fine by me.  I'd caveat that with...it is an old set and could do with a 'design pass' as could Energy Melee on Tank.  Maybe add some bleed damage pinched from Savage melee.

 

It is an axe after all.

 

As for not encouraging anyone to roll an Axe.  Life is in the trying of things.  Otherwise I wouldn't have rolled an Ice/Ice/Ice tank.  I soft capped it.  Maxed out it's damage capability.  And with the recent Tank changes, the AoE on it is 'just fine' as opposed to the previous so-so.  Very survivable.

 

Equally so, Shield/Battle Axe is a lot of fun.  Axe-ing mobs is 2 dimensional but great ham burger fun.  In the way that beating on Council Mobs never gets old.  And on a brute?  Teh Fury.  Teh Build UP.  Teh 'chunk.' 'That's gonna hurt in the morning, son.'

 

The reason I rolled mine was because I saw a scrapper Shield/Axe having far too much fun on a farm mission sending mobs flying with an axe.  I had to have a piece of that action...

 

I'd recommend anyone 'not sure' or 'nervous' about trying things.  Try an AT or said Power choices upto L8.  The character slots are abundant and game are now 'free.'   Try 'it' you never know....you may like it.

 

Azrael.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Golden Azrael]

On 5/17/2020 at 6:18 PM, SuperPlyx said:

Crowd Control slotted right is an extremely fun attack.

 

It's a terrific AoE attack for a Tank.  Very satisfying 'chunk' as it levels half a huge mob.

 

Azrael.

[eknudson]

In-game tests really don't seem to support the idea that Battle Axe is weak.

 

If you look on the scrapper boards, at least one person has run the pylon test on an Axe scrapper and took out the pylon in around 1:45.  War Mace did better at 1:15 when he tested the same build with mace, but 1:15 is about as good as anything that isn't titan weapons and not that many primaries are better than 1:45. So Axe does nice single target damage. 

 

Then you look at the more AoE focused test of time to beat a "standard" mission on +0/x3 and Battle Axe was almost exactly middle of the pack-- just below war mace.  

 

You look at the theoretical dps testing that's been done for each primary under different recharge levels and Axe is better than average... almost exactly the DPS of street justice which I've heard exactly nobody complain about. 

 

Is Axe terrible? I just don't see it from in-game testing. It's still just slightly inferior to war mace in almost every way but it doesn't seem BAD. 

[Hjarki]

1 hour ago, eknudson said:

You look at the theoretical dps testing that's been done for each primary under different recharge levels and Axe is better than average... almost exactly the DPS of street justice which I've heard exactly nobody complain about. 

With even a cursory examination, I found that the numbers they're using are more likely to be incorrect than correct so any conclusions drawn from it are likewise likely to be incorrect.

[Golden Azrael]

23 hours ago, eknudson said:

In-game tests really don't seem to support the idea that Battle Axe is weak.

 

If you look on the scrapper boards, at least one person has run the pylon test on an Axe scrapper and took out the pylon in around 1:45.  War Mace did better at 1:15 when he tested the same build with mace, but 1:15 is about as good as anything that isn't titan weapons and not that many primaries are better than 1:45. So Axe does nice single target damage. 

 

Then you look at the more AoE focused test of time to beat a "standard" mission on +0/x3 and Battle Axe was almost exactly middle of the pack-- just below war mace.  

 

You look at the theoretical dps testing that's been done for each primary under different recharge levels and Axe is better than average... almost exactly the DPS of street justice which I've heard exactly nobody complain about. 

 

Is Axe terrible? I just don't see it from in-game testing. It's still just slightly inferior to war mace in almost every way but it doesn't seem BAD. 

I'd agree with this post.

 

I've gone toe to toe with War Mace/Regen brute on my Shield and B Axe brute.

 

It's a case of who gets the last or 1st hit in at a given point of fury building.  They both hit reasonably hard.  I won't deny that in playing War Mace has a lovely feel and edge to it and some great hitters and some lovely AoEs.  But B Axe is far from terrible.  It will more than hold it's own with War Mace in a brute duo.  I'd recommend any player to 'try it' 😄  Both of them.  And judge for yourself.  The slots and game are now free.  Roll both to L8 and you may find you'll play both to L50 as they both have a lovely 2 dimensional sense of fun about them.  Both sets grow with you.

 

Any defficiencies it has vs War Mace are flattened with shield charge when a regen brute has taken a kicking or passed out *needing smelling salts* from the alpha taking.

 

Regen' is enlightening.  I'd recommend to take it on Brutes.  It looks great fun to play...with War Mace.  The Regen' grows stronger over time.

 

Azrael.

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

Regen' is enlightening.  I'd recommend to take it on Brutes.  It looks great fun to play...with War Mace.  The Regen' grows stronger over time.

 

I love it with Titan Weapons... Quick Recovery helps with TW's self-drain, and Defensive Sweep helps slow down incoming damage at the start of a fight when Regen sometimes gets overwhelmed with too much burst damage. All the knockdowns also help, and with so many chances to slot Force Feedback it helps recharge Regen's long-recharge powers very nicely.

 

Mace does some of that (knockdowns for damage mitigation and for +Recharge), and so does Axe.

[drbuzzard]

On 5/22/2020 at 10:41 AM, eknudson said:

If you look on the scrapper boards, at least one person has run the pylon test on an Axe scrapper and took out the pylon in around 1:45.  War Mace did better at 1:15 when he tested the same build with mace, but 1:15 is about as good as anything that isn't titan weapons and not that many primaries are better than 1:45. So Axe does nice single target damage. 

I didn't particularly want to find numbers to show why I greatly prefer War Mace over Battle Axe, but you've been kind enough to provide them. The way I evaluate a set before making an alt is to look at the DPAS (damage per activation second) for the attacks, and if the numbers are good, I go with them. The problem with BA vs. WM, is that the DPAS tends to be weaker across the board (I'm not going to post numbers because I'm lazy, and because the provided numbers will make my case). 

 

So let's make a simple bit of math using the provided numbers to make my case. WM smashes a pylon in 1:15  (or 75 seconds) and BA does it in  1:45 or 105 seconds. For the sake of easier math (this way it gives round numbers), I'll call the BA number 100 seconds (which means I'm being nice). Then we pick a nice round number to call the health of the pylon to make the math easy, say 30000 HP (because again things give round numbers, and yes I know it's not the real number, pylon math is a lot more complicated since it includes regeneration).  30k/100 = 300 DPS  vs.  30k/75= 400 DPS. Hence WM is about 33% better than BA at sustained DPS given the numbers (better in fact since I was kind to BA). Is this night and day? I suppose that your mileage may vary on that evaluation. Between the way lethal is resisted so strongly at high level and this numerical difference, I have no interest in playing BA again. Anyone else is certainly welcome to play it, as it's not an awful set. Heck, I finally got a Titan Weapon build to 50, and while I know it is the numbers champion, I didn't like playing it at all, so perhaps BA will suit someone better than WM. 

On 5/22/2020 at 10:41 AM, eknudson said:

Is Axe terrible? I just don't see it from in-game testing. It's still just slightly inferior to war mace in almost every way but it doesn't seem BAD. 

Terrible, no. It's pretty middle of the pack. It's just that you picked War Mace to compare to, and that's simply a very strong set which is notably superior across the board. If you compare it to katana or Broadsword, it will likely fare quite well.