Invulnerability Rework Request

[Replacement]

3 hours ago, GritIron said:

I disagree, the Psi hole should remain.  Its the Achilles heal of the set.

 

2 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

You are trying to make a "perfect set" please no! All great powers need a weakness, Invuln's is that it has a psi hole and you have to watch how you use your end.

I would argue that if you only had, say, 10% psi resist but 40% to all the others (Tanker numbers, not enhanced), it would still be a "hole."

 

Shield has a similar hole, but hell of a lot more utility and damage.

 

[krj12]

I could see replacing the T9 with something useful, but other than that I think the set is fine.

 

[Snowdaze]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

 

I would argue that if you only had, say, 10% psi resist but 40% to all the others (Tanker numbers, not enhanced), it would still be a "hole."

 

Shield has a similar hole, but hell of a lot more utility and damage.

 

But at that point starting at 10%, that the equivalent of ~2 IO's, which provides a SIGNIFICANT base for bonus' to stand on. If you want to plug the Psi hole as it stands it's pretty much possible. However to do it you have to make certain concessions.

[tidge]

19 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

 If you want to plug the Psi hole as it stands it's pretty much possible. However to do it you have to make certain concessions.

 On my (not 'optimized') Inv Tank, Psi has the second highest value (after Smashing/Lethal). Defense is a different story.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

 

Invulnerability saw many tweaks since launch, including the (blessed) change from Unyielding Stance to Unyielding. Many respecs were gladly spent that day to drop the Teleport pool.

 

I find it to be an extremely efficient Tanker primary. My Inv Tanker has 30 slots invested in the primary powers (*1) 6 of those slots are in Dull Pain, which IMO is a much better "oh ####" power than Unstoppable.

 

Edit: (*1) 30 Slots across 8 powers.

TBH that happened back when dinosaurs roamed the earth , tho you right! 😛

 

I think there is value with some of what the OP is stating, particularly with the combining of some of the passives into one and opening up a new power (+Unstoppable changing to legit anything lol).

 

One idea that floated around was like, a Perma-Absorb layer from an auto power that behaved like a small amount of "Damage Negation". To emulate how an invulnerable character simply cannot be harmed by certain amounts of damage, this layer would subtract X damage directly before ever touching your HP and allow you to actually be "Invulnerable" to a certain small threshold. 

[Snowdaze]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

One idea that floated around was like, a Perma-Absorb layer from an auto power that behaved like a small amount of "Damage Negation". To emulate how an invulnerable character simply cannot be harmed by certain amounts of damage, this layer would subtract X damage directly before ever touching your HP and allow you to actually be "Invulnerable" to a certain small threshold. 

Maybe in unstoppable... Else basically you are just trying to plug the psi-hole without plugging the psi-hole. Because frankly you got enough resistance for everything else that you are skimming plenty off the top...

[Galaxy Brain]

3 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

Maybe in unstoppable... Else basically you are just trying to plug the psi-hole without plugging the psi-hole. Because frankly you got enough resistance for everything else that you are skimming plenty off the top...

A small absorb layer will not plug a psy hole

[Snowdaze]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

A small absorb layer will not plug a psy hole

a "small layer" might work on a ranged character like a blaster or a sentinel, but lets face it. On an invuln? You are going to be in the thick of it and you knew that when you rolled up the character. If you are going to put absorb in invuln it's going to be a substantial layer or incredibly fast reapplying. In either case it can help mitigate a hole.

[Snowdaze]

5 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

Many Armour T9s are designed in a way that is not in line with their use. When you have a powerful 'click' power you are under constant pressure to hold off from using it until absolutely necessary. However, CoH gives the player very little information before a fight is started as to whether using the T9 is worth while, or better saved for a different fight. Consequently the T9 is not popped until either it is blindingly obvious that the fight calls for it (AVs, GMs, etc) or not used until it's too late. The average Armour T9 is not a "reset fight" button, and is rarely worth clicking as a panic button.

 

If the idea of a T9 is a "prepare for a tough fight" power, then the only way the player will ever use it is if they feel they completely understand the odds against them, and feel that the T9 is able to swing the fight in their favour. However, it doesn't last long and (sometimes) has a period of weakness after the power expires. Meaning the player has to understand not only the strength of the combatants, but the likely time period in which the fight will occur and judge if they can win in time before the debuff kicks in. This is compounded by the possibilities of harder encounters further into the mission, and the long cooldown of most of these powers is a deterrent towards misjudging the use and being flippant with when you activate it. A player, unless they have back-to-front, upside-down knowledge of a mission, the enemy and the troubling spots ahead of when they need to be used is not given enough information to make these calls with any degree of accuracy. Experience is the only way to know these things, and once you have experience you don't need the T9 anymore; you've already learnt other methods for success that will be more effective, and dealing with the backlash of the power expiring will slow down your progress more than the T9 will speed it up.

 

If the idea is for the T9 to be a "panic button" then many of these T9 powers are equally ill suited to their roll as they are not actually powerful enough to turn an imminent failure into a salvageable situation. Most don't heal you or give you a sudden burst of endurance to fire off your headliner attacks. Most don't give you enough time to regain the upper hand if you were already outmatched. Most won't let you finish the fight any quicker in your favour and you've still got that debuff coming down on you... and that's only going to make the situation worse! They're fundamentally unsuited to being a panic button, since unless you're experienced in how the fight is changing moment-to-moment, you're not going to see the suckerpunch coming. A major issue is that the Brute, Tanker, Stalker and Scrapper all get access to what is essentially the SAME power, that is supposed to compliment their vastly different pay styles. Each Archetype is going to want something different from a "Oh God, Help!" power. Again, the only time this could be used properly is if you're prescient by about 10 seconds. And the only time that could happen, your so experienced with the game that you'll avoid the situation before the T9 is necessary.

 

There's one of two fixes needed. But first you have to decide which of the two situations the T9 is going to cater for.

 

Is it's purpose success through superior planning, or snatching victory from the jaws of defeat?

 

More thoughts on this as time permits.

This really was the "Insight of the Thread" award right here.

[MTeague]

If you roll up a Tanker, knowing there's a Psi hole, I'd consider it just basic sense plan around decking them out with lots of sets to build up Psi Resist.

It's really not that hard to get it up to a 40-50% range. 

 

Is that "This way to cheap street"?  No.  But if I'm a tanker my first job is "Don't Fall Down".  I would go into it planning to spend what I needed to to make that happen.

It just wouldn't be my first character by any stretch.

[America's Angel]

My invuln tank:

59% def to everything (except psy/toxic)

90% res to everything (INCLUDING psy/toxic) for every 3 out of 4 minutes I spent tanking.

 

For that one remaining minute? Take damage, hit dull pain, wait for melee hybrid to recharge.

 

Invuln is godlike. It doesn't need changing.

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by America's Angel

[Galaxy Brain]

4 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

a "small layer" might work on a ranged character like a blaster or a sentinel, but lets face it. On an invuln? You are going to be in the thick of it and you knew that when you rolled up the character. If you are going to put absorb in invuln it's going to be a substantial layer or incredibly fast reapplying. In either case it can help mitigate a hole.

As I said in my post about it, it would be a layer that is always there, essentially rapidly refreshing to the point of never ever going down

[Snowdaze]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

As I said in my post about it, it would be a layer that is always there, essentially rapidly refreshing to the point of never ever going down

I don't agree with an always there layer, but something to this effect might be a more "useful" version of Unstoppable.

[America's Angel]

Yeah it doesn't need a layer of anything. Invuln is fine.

[Galaxy Brain]

12 hours ago, America's Angel said:

My invuln tank:

59% def to everything (except psy/toxic)

90% res to everything (INCLUDING psy/toxic) for every 3 out of 4 minutes I spent tanking.

 

For that one remaining minute? Take damage, hit dull pain, wait for melee hybrid to recharge.

 

Invuln is godlike. It doesn't need changing.

 

So, for everyone who isn't endowed with tons of inf or lvl 54 incarnate....?

[SwitchFade]

My invuln tank has,

 

90 to s/l

 

70-80 others

 

Without incarnates.

 

With slotting io's and their bonuses.

 

When I'm attacking, and the proc in the ATO is firing, which it always does 1, if not 2 stacked, I'm at 90 s/l and 85-90 for everything including psy.

[Snowdaze]

1 minute ago, SwitchFade said:

My invuln tank has,

 

90 to s/l

 

70-80 others

 

Without incarnates.

 

With slotting io's and their bonuses.

 

When I'm attacking, and the proc in the ATO is firing, which it always does 1, if not 2 stacked, I'm at 90 s/l and 85-90 for everything including psy.

including psi! I'm impressed and curious!

[America's Angel]

46 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So, for everyone who isn't endowed with tons of inf or lvl 54 incarnate....?

I'd assume casual gamers are playing on +0 difficulty. An Invuln tanker can do that with SOs.

[Galaxy Brain]

29 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

I'd assume casual gamers are playing on +0 difficulty. An Invuln tanker can do that with SOs.

The OP's question comes up then: what makes invuln attractive over other sets on a lower lvl than elite players?

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So, for everyone who isn't endowed with tons of inf or lvl 54 incarnate....?

I am ...  a casual powergamer lol.

• I've been playing CoH since June 1st, 2019.  In that not-quite-a-year I have managed to ding exactly TWO characters to lvl 50.  No more. 
• I have 34 characters grand total.
• I do not have a farmer. 
• I team probably 30-40% of the time., I solo the rest.

I'm still easily able to deck out all my characters with Attuned IO's across the board, except on the 50's where I ahve some purple sets slotted.

It's incredibly easy to pile up 100 mil influence on a character by doing some story arcs, getting merits, buying converters, playing converter roulette and selling valuable rares.

And it's not hard to get the "Seed Money" to do it by auctioning a few orange salvage. 

 

Now, I recognize some folks may not enjoy playing the market / doing converter roulette.

I understand some folks may even want to do a "live off the land" thing as a personal challenge.

Others may long for "oldschool" CoH with SO's only.  Okay.  It takes all kinds. 
 

But it's not hard to pile up the influence to get IO's.  Some may not want to do it.  But I don't accept that it's beyond anyone's capacity to do it. 

[America's Angel]

7 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The OP's question comes up then: what makes invuln attractive over other sets on a lower lvl than elite players?

The lower levels are already balanced for SOs. Any tank can tank with SOs in regular content.

 

As for why lowbies should pick Invuln; It has good defence/resistance to smashing/lethal. It also requires no micromanagement.

 

It's obviously a very attractive powerset for people at low levels, considering that more invulns are played through those low levels, and taken all the way to 50, than any other tanker set.

 

I'd suggest you stop suggesting tweaks to powersets you don't understand.

[Galaxy Brain]

4 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

The lower levels are already balanced for SOs. Any tank can tank with SOs in regular content.

 

As for why lowbies should pick Invuln; It has good defence/resistance to smashing/lethal. It also requires no micromanagement.

 

It's obviously a very attractive powerset for people at low levels, considering that more invulns are played through those low levels, and taken all the way to 50, than any other tanker set.

 

I'd suggest you stop suggesting tweaks to powersets you don't understand.

Cool, so why would a non-lowbie / semi-casual player pick invuln over another armor set?

[MTeague]

3 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

The lower levels are already balanced for SOs. Any tank can tank with SOs in regular content.

As for why lowbies should pick Invuln; It has good defence/resistance to smashing/lethal. It also requires no micromanagement.

It's obviously a very attractive powerset for people at low levels, considering that more invulns are played through those low levels, and taken all the way to 50, than any other tanker set.

I agree, agree, and agree

3 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

I'd suggest you stop suggesting tweaks to powersets you don't understand.

This is @Galaxy Brain we're talking about here. Have you seen some of his posts?  I'm constantly floored by his enyclopedic data analysis and number crunching, and I find myself agreeing with him on a LARGE number of threads.  

 

Now I disagree with his conclusions on this particular topic. I think Invuln is fine as is.

But I would never presume to tell the man he doesn't understand the set. It would not shock me in the slightest if he has logged many hours on a 50 invuln and does quite well with the set.

[America's Angel]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Cool, so why would a non-lowbie / semi-casual player pick invuln over another armor set?

It has good defence/resistance to smashing/lethal. It also requires no micromanagement.

[MTeague]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Cool, so why would a non-lowbie / semi-casual player pick invuln over another armor set?

For me at least?  Style Points. 

 

I choose my AT, Primary, Secondary, and pool powers guided by one thing and one thing only.  Character Concept and Style. Effectiveness can go take a flying leap when I choose powersets, or even make power selections within a set.  I choose what fits the character.

 

Now, when SLOTTING, then I unleash the powergamer habits I picked up from WoW and other games.  When assign which slots go to which powers, and deciding how to make my character the best they can be within the concept, oh i am definitely eyeballing performance and max effectiveness.

 

The result has always been quite workable.