Regeneration Issues

[Talesin2]

As you know Regen is unpopular to play in the high end game for anything but a sentinel.  I have done some digging and found that the resistence to regeneration debuff is so pitifully weak on Regeneration and Willpower, that against certain debuffing mobs the only survival tool that Regen gets is stripped away.  The devs (from live) solved a similar issue for Super Reflexes with regards to Defense Debuff Resistence.  It is my suggestion that Regeneration (and to a lesser degree Willpower) be fixed in a similar way.

 

* Add a small but enhanceable resistance to regeneration debuff to all healing powers such that when you take all (or most) of the powers in the set, it will protect you from the vast majority of regen debuffs.

 

There are a couple of counter-arguments that you could make, and I will address them now.

1. MOG- Mog will raise a regen's def and resist to levels unlike many others, but it is available infrequently and its duration is too short to make it a long term viable survival tool.

2. PVP- One of the only ways to counter an extremely high level of regen in PVP would be regen debuff.  I propose that any regen debuff function as a resistence debuff in a PVP setting.

 

Thanks.  Any thought to expand on this idea are welcome.

[0th Power]

Time to post again...

 

how to fix regen

 

1. Give more -regen resist

2. Either lower recharge a bit or increase duration of instant healing or moment of glory 

3. give stalkers some +recovery in combination with fast healing

4. allow Rez to be used while alive (like sentinels)

5. Have the heals in dull pain and reconstruction fire off at the beginning of the animation, rather then towards the end. 
 

thats all 

 

( copy pasted from last thread)

[marcussmythe]

Given that regen is a one trick pony, it should absolutely retain that trick.

[Talesin2]

I did a search but couldn't find another thread on this issue.  Please give me the link 0th Power.

[Snowdaze]

Regen is popular enough leave it the "F" ALONE!

 

PROOF:
 

On 3/2/2020 at 5:45 PM, Cipher said:

Scrapper

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

#	Primary	Secondary	Count
1	Titan Weapons	Bio Organic Armor	593
2	Electrical Melee	Shield Defense	529
3	Martial Arts	Super Reflexes	186
4	Katana	Regeneration	185
5	Street Justice	Willpower	184
6	Claws	Regeneration	176
7	Spines	Fiery Aura	176
8	Martial Arts	Regeneration	166
9	Broad Sword	Shield Defense	155
10	Spines	Regeneration	154
11	Radiation Melee	Radiation Armor	149
12	Broad Sword	Regeneration	135
13	Dark Melee	Shield Defense	128
14	Spines	Bio Organic Armor	124
15	Dark Melee	Regeneration	117
16	Dark Melee	Dark Armor	116
17	Titan Weapons	Willpower	115
18	Titan Weapons	Radiation Armor	111
19	Staff Fighting	Willpower	109
20	Claws	Super Reflexes	107
21	Katana	Willpower	106
22	Dual Blades	Willpower	102
23	Martial Arts	Ninjitsu	101
24	Spines	Dark Armor	101
25	Radiation Melee	Bio Organic Armor	100
26	Katana	Ninjitsu	99
27	Psionic Melee	Regeneration	97
28	Martial Arts	Willpower	97
29	Electrical Melee	Electric Armor	95
30	Katana	Super Reflexes	95
31	Fiery Melee	Shield Defense	93
32	War Mace	Shield Defense	92
33	War Mace	Bio Organic Armor	90
34	Psionic Melee	Bio Organic Armor	86
35	Dark Melee	Super Reflexes	86
36	Savage Melee	Bio Organic Armor	84
37	Staff Fighting	Ninjitsu	84
38	Claws	Willpower	79
39	Street Justice	Super Reflexes	72
40	Street Justice	Shield Defense	67
41	Savage Melee	Regeneration	67
42	Street Justice	Regeneration	63
43	Staff Fighting	Super Reflexes	62
44	Fiery Melee	Fiery Aura	61
45	Titan Weapons	Ninjitsu	57
46	Katana	Bio Organic Armor	57
47	Psionic Melee	Shield Defense	56
48	Street Justice	Ninjitsu	56
49	Dual Blades	Regeneration	56
50	Titan Weapons	Fiery Aura	56
51	Staff Fighting	Bio Organic Armor	54
52	Psionic Melee	Energy Aura	52
53	Radiation Melee	Fiery Aura	52
54	Martial Arts	Invulnerability	51
55	Dual Blades	Ninjitsu	51
56	Dual Blades	Super Reflexes	51
57	Street Justice	Bio Organic Armor	50
58	Savage Melee	Willpower	50
59	Kinetic Attack	Energy Aura	48
60	Psionic Melee	Ninjitsu	47
61	Claws	Bio Organic Armor	46
62	Psionic Melee	Radiation Armor	44
63	Broad Sword	Willpower	43
64	Radiation Melee	Shield Defense	43
65	Dark Melee	Bio Organic Armor	42
66	Staff Fighting	Regeneration	42
67	Titan Weapons	Regeneration	40
68	Titan Weapons	Electric Armor	40
69	Broad Sword	Invulnerability	40
70	Psionic Melee	Willpower	39
71	Dual Blades	Bio Organic Armor	39
72	Savage Melee	Shield Defense	39
73	Spines	Radiation Armor	37
74	Martial Arts	Shield Defense	36
75	Staff Fighting	Electric Armor	36
76	Spines	Willpower	36
77	Claws	Ninjitsu	35
78	Dual Blades	Invulnerability	33
79	Katana	Dark Armor	33
80	Claws	Invulnerability	33
81	Dark Melee	Radiation Armor	32
82	Savage Melee	Super Reflexes	32
83	Spines	Invulnerability	32
84	War Mace	Willpower	32
85	Titan Weapons	Energy Aura	32
86	Spines	Ice Armor	32
87	Dark Melee	Willpower	31
88	Radiation Melee	Regeneration	31
89	Broad Sword	Super Reflexes	30
90	Electrical Melee	Radiation Armor	30
91	Dark Melee	Invulnerability	30
92	Street Justice	Invulnerability	30
93	Spines	Super Reflexes	29
94	Street Justice	Energy Aura	28
95	Kinetic Attack	Willpower	28
96	Staff Fighting	Radiation Armor	28
97	Titan Weapons	Super Reflexes	28
98	Kinetic Attack	Super Reflexes	27
99	Broad Sword	Bio Organic Armor	27
100	Katana	Invulnerability	27
101	Dual Blades	Radiation Armor	26
102	Psionic Melee	Super Reflexes	26
103	Dual Blades	Dark Armor	26
104	Fiery Melee	Regeneration	26
105	Savage Melee	Dark Armor	26
106	Staff Fighting	Energy Aura	26
107	Titan Weapons	Dark Armor	26
108	Dual Blades	Energy Aura	25
109	Ice Melee	Shield Defense	25
110	Claws	Radiation Armor	25
111	Martial Arts	Bio Organic Armor	25
112	Battle Axe	Shield Defense	25
113	Spines	Electric Armor	24
114	Titan Weapons	Ice Armor	24
115	Savage Melee	Radiation Armor	24
116	Titan Weapons	Invulnerability	24
117	Radiation Melee	Dark Armor	23
118	Staff Fighting	Dark Armor	23
119	Fiery Melee	Bio Organic Armor	23
120	Katana	Electric Armor	22
121	Dark Melee	Energy Aura	22
122	Dark Melee	Ninjitsu	22
123	Street Justice	Radiation Armor	22
124	Electrical Melee	Bio Organic Armor	21
125	Psionic Melee	Dark Armor	21
126	Broad Sword	Energy Aura	21
127	Claws	Fiery Aura	21
128	Radiation Melee	Willpower	21
129	Electrical Melee	Fiery Aura	20
130	Claws	Electric Armor	20
131	Savage Melee	Ninjitsu	20
132	Martial Arts	Energy Aura	20
133	Psionic Melee	Electric Armor	19
134	Ice Melee	Fiery Aura	19
135	Ice Melee	Ice Armor	19
136	Electrical Melee	Willpower	19
137	Katana	Radiation Armor	19
138	Staff Fighting	Invulnerability	18
139	Katana	Energy Aura	18
140	Street Justice	Electric Armor	17
141	War Mace	Energy Aura	17
142	Kinetic Attack	Regeneration	17
143	Dual Blades	Electric Armor	17
144	War Mace	Ninjitsu	17
145	Claws	Dark Armor	17
146	Dark Melee	Ice Armor	17
147	Broad Sword	Dark Armor	17
148	Psionic Melee	Invulnerability	16
149	Kinetic Attack	Bio Organic Armor	16
150	Kinetic Attack	Ninjitsu	16
151	Fiery Melee	Willpower	16
152	Electrical Melee	Energy Aura	15
153	War Mace	Radiation Armor	15
154	Battle Axe	Bio Organic Armor	14
155	Ice Melee	Regeneration	14
156	Martial Arts	Radiation Armor	14
157	Electrical Melee	Regeneration	14
158	Battle Axe	Regeneration	13
159	War Mace	Electric Armor	13
160	Broad Sword	Electric Armor	13
161	Katana	Fiery Aura	13
162	Radiation Melee	Electric Armor	13
163	Kinetic Attack	Radiation Armor	13
164	Radiation Melee	Ice Armor	12
165	Dual Blades	Fiery Aura	12
166	Fiery Melee	Radiation Armor	12
167	War Mace	Dark Armor	12
168	Psionic Melee	Fiery Aura	12
169	War Mace	Regeneration	11
170	Battle Axe	Willpower	11
171	Staff Fighting	Ice Armor	11
172	Kinetic Attack	Shield Defense	11
173	Martial Arts	Fiery Aura	11
174	Kinetic Attack	Electric Armor	10
175	Claws	Ice Armor	10
176	Battle Axe	Radiation Armor	10
177	Dark Melee	Electric Armor	10
178	Broad Sword	Ninjitsu	10
179	War Mace	Invulnerability	10
180	Radiation Melee	Ninjitsu	10
181	Martial Arts	Electric Armor	10
182	Staff Fighting	Fiery Aura	10
183	Electrical Melee	Ninjitsu	10
184	Electrical Melee	Dark Armor	9
185	Savage Melee	Invulnerability	9
186	Ice Melee	Bio Organic Armor	9
187	Claws	Energy Aura	9
188	Broad Sword	Radiation Armor	9
189	Fiery Melee	Dark Armor	8
190	Savage Melee	Energy Aura	8
191	Dark Melee	Fiery Aura	8
192	Savage Melee	Fiery Aura	8
193	Spines	Ninjitsu	8
194	War Mace	Super Reflexes	8
195	Electrical Melee	Invulnerability	8
196	Katana	Ice Armor	7
197	Battle Axe	Electric Armor	7
198	War Mace	Fiery Aura	7
199	Fiery Melee	Invulnerability	7
200	Street Justice	Fiery Aura	7
201	Electrical Melee	Super Reflexes	7
202	Radiation Melee	Invulnerability	7
203	Kinetic Attack	Ice Armor	6
204	Fiery Melee	Energy Aura	6
205	Electrical Melee	Ice Armor	6
206	Broad Sword	Fiery Aura	6
207	Savage Melee	Electric Armor	6
208	Radiation Melee	Energy Aura	6
209	Street Justice	Dark Armor	6
210	Fiery Melee	Ice Armor	6
211	Ice Melee	Invulnerability	6
212	Street Justice	Ice Armor	6
213	Battle Axe	Energy Aura	6
214	Battle Axe	Invulnerability	6
215	Psionic Melee	Ice Armor	6
216	Spines	Energy Aura	6
217	Martial Arts	Dark Armor	6
218	Broad Sword	Ice Armor	5
219	Ice Melee	Willpower	5
220	Martial Arts	Ice Armor	5
221	Ice Melee	Electric Armor	5
222	Kinetic Attack	Invulnerability	5
223	War Mace	Ice Armor	5
224	Radiation Melee	Super Reflexes	5
225	Ice Melee	Energy Aura	5
226	Battle Axe	Dark Armor	5
227	Battle Axe	Ice Armor	5
228	Ice Melee	Dark Armor	4
229	Ice Melee	Radiation Armor	4
230	Fiery Melee	Super Reflexes	4
231	Ice Melee	Ninjitsu	4
232	Battle Axe	Super Reflexes	4
233	Dual Blades	Ice Armor	3
234	Kinetic Attack	Fiery Aura	3
235	Savage Melee	Ice Armor	3
236	Fiery Melee	Electric Armor	3
237	Fiery Melee	Ninjitsu	3
238	Battle Axe	Fiery Aura	2
239	Battle Axe	Ninjitsu	2
240	Ice Melee	Super Reflexes	1

 

 

 

[0th Power]

I didn’t read your post before I posted.  I don’t think there has been a thread specifically about the -regen resistance, but it has been brought up in the eleventy hundred regen thread (one of which was mine). 
 

Your suggestion has merit, and it’s part of my “improve regen” plan. 

[0th Power]

3 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

Regen is popular enough leave it the "F" ALONE!

 

PROOF:
 

 

Just because something is popular, doesn’t necessarily mean it doesn’t need improvement 

[Snowdaze]

1 minute ago, 0th Power said:

Just because something is popular, doesn’t necessarily mean it doesn’t need improvement 

Did you miss the first line of the OP?

[0th Power]

Yes

[Snowdaze]

1 minute ago, 0th Power said:

Yes

I forgive you.

[SwitchFade]

Is it Wednesday?

 

Nerf Regen. 😋

[Snowdaze]

Just now, SwitchFade said:

Is it Wednesday?

 

Nerf Regen. 😋

Tuesday, come back tomorrow and try then...

[Galaxy Brain]

12 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

Regen is popular enough leave it the "F" ALONE!

 

PROOF:
 

 

Popular =/= amazing. 

 

Regen is an incredibly THEMATIC pick, so yes it will be incredibly popular. Similarly, Elec/Elec blasters are very popular for theme despite Elec Blast being lacking.

[0th Power]

12 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

I forgive you.

Me not reading his argument doesn’t mean I agree with yours

[Snowdaze]

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Popular =/= amazing. 

 

Regen is an incredibly THEMATIC pick, so yes it will be incredibly popular. Similarly, Elec/Elec blasters are very popular for theme despite Elec Blast being lacking.

Not every set needs to be AMAZING! Why do people default to this? "It didnt knock my socks off." "I've seen other people do more with something else."
Regen works just fine for the people who learn how to use it. Pre set bonus' I might have agreed with you all but you can do plenty with sets and IO's.

There have been more then a few times, I've seen the whole balanced team go down except the regen scrapper who just stopped caring, and decided that if it was breathing he was going to make it stop.

[Galaxy Brain]

5 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

Not every set needs to be AMAZING! Why do people default to this? "It didnt knock my socks off." "I've seen other people do more with something else."
Regen works just fine for the people who learn how to use it. Pre set bonus' I might have agreed with you all but you can do plenty with sets and IO's.

There have been more then a few times, I've seen the whole balanced team go down except the regen scrapper who just stopped caring, and decided that if it was breathing he was going to make it stop.

The reason people want to see it improved IS because it is so popular, and it only needs a few things to really "click". Yes, it can work well but when you compare it to other sets that also give layered defenses on top of the ability to boost regen or self heal.... yeah

[Snowdaze]

5 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

Me not reading his argument doesn’t mean I agree with yours

Fair enough, I will say though your suggestions aren't bad, and I guess they wouldn't be unwelcomed as they seem relatively balanced. I dislike #2, number 2 should be reduce reconstruction's recharge to 45 seconds, and have it contain a stackable -regen resist.

[Zeraphia]

I'm of the opinion that regen is single-handedly the most extreme case of either "very good!" or "very poor" in performance...

 

It really relies on team/party buffs in group settings to really push itself to be "tanky" in the sense that other sets are. It's not that IO's and incarnates can't push it, it's more so it just lacks the tools to directly mitigate damage that others give (mitigating the damage before it happens or as it happens is just way more powerful than trying to "recover quickly" from it.) Given Regen's tools, it makes for a very poor set in solo play comparatively to others against hard-hitting enemy groups.

 

But with MoG it becomes a "toss up" to make itself invulnerable. I will say this, Regen on STALKERS is amazing given how MoG can force yourself back into hide and you can just choose not to break hide without MoG on. However on Scrapper/Brute it does underperform noticeably in comparison to other secondaries (sorry but it is the truth.)

 

For this reason, and given regen's unique damage recovering mechanism, it becomes both the tankiest set when buffed up, and yet the squishiest when not. For this reason, I believe IH should be left as a toggle to enable Regen to at least have a chance to have some "normalcy."

[Snowdaze]

47 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The reason people want to see it improved IS because it is so popular, and it only needs a few things to really "click". Yes, it can work well but when you compare it to other sets that also give layered defenses on top of the ability to boost regen or self heal.... yeah

So it's good enough to be popular, and for people to play... a lot... But it's not good enough so we absolutely have to make it that much better? Perhaps championing some of the lesser played sets that are suffering much more due to poor design should happen before ones that are currently being played on an incredibly wide scale and only are marginally less powerful...

Edited May 20, 2020 by Snowdaze

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Snowdaze said:

So it's good enough to be popular, and for people to play... a lot... But it's not good enough so we absolutely have to make it that much better? Perhaps championing some of the lesser played sets that are suffering much more due to poor design should happen before ones that are currently being played on an incredibly wide scale and only are marginally less powerful...

Again, popular =/= good. Regen is a major trope so people will take it by name alone. That said, Willpower is much closer to the "Healing Factor" trope most associate with regen, and as @Zeraphiasaid it suffers from an almost Jekyll/Hyde syndrome where its either amazing or awful. 

 

There are buffs that would make it a smoother experience for all that I think are warranted even in an IO world.

[Snowdaze]

5 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Again, popular =/= good. Regen is a major trope so people will take it by name alone. That said, Willpower is much closer to the "Healing Factor" trope most associate with regen, and as @Zeraphiasaid it suffers from an almost Jekyll/Hyde syndrome where its either amazing or awful. 

 

There are buffs that would make it a smoother experience for all that I think are warranted even in an IO world.

Mind you my statistic graph posted by Cypher is also only those who have made it to 50. So it's good enough to play through up to max level. Not good =/= Bad and in need of fixing at this time. I still feel there are other powersets that are in much more need of love then regen.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

5 hours ago, 0th Power said:

Time to post again...

 

how to fix regen

 

1. Give more -regen resist

2. Either lower recharge a bit or increase duration of instant healing or moment of glory 

3. give stalkers some +recovery in combination with fast healing

4. allow Rez to be used while alive (like sentinels)

5. Have the heals in dull pain and reconstruction fire off at the beginning of the animation, rather then towards the end. 
 

thats all 

 

( copy pasted from last thread)

Id take it one step further and make regen unique in having no animations or cast times on its click powers. Instant cast.

[Talesin2]

None of you who have commented against my idea are using the precedence set by other powersets in backing up your argument.  All other defensive sets get varying degrees of protection from having their sources of protection stripped by debuffs.

 

Pure resistance sets get resistence debuff defense through the way that resistance works in the game. (Examples include Electric, Fire, etc.)

Hybrid sets get a mixture of defense supports. (Invul gets resistance debuff defense and defense debuff resistance. But it also includes Willpower, Energy Aura, etc.)

Pure defense sets get a level of strong defense debuff resist. (Super Reflexes)

 

Only Regen (and to a lesser extent Willpower) are stuck with such low level of debuff resist (caps at ~26%) with no possible way to enhance it.  They only get that debuff protection through Fast Healing.  I just think that this is an oversight on the part of the devs.  It should be fixed.

[Talesin2]

2 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

Mind you my statistic graph posted by Cypher is also only those who have made it to 50. So it's good enough to play through up to max level. Not good =/= Bad and in need of fixing at this time. I still feel there are other powersets that are in much more need of love then regen.

Sure.  Other sets need help, but why would fixing this issue even require work to make it happen.  They would literally need to copy one line from the code for Fast Healing and append it to a few other powers in the set.  This is a small job that I think the devs of Homecoming could easily accomplish.  They have chosen to ignore small fixes like this for reasons beyond my understanding.  Another example I posted a while back is that Shred for Scrappers doesn't crit.  Stalkers get the crit, and the code for fixing this one issue would literally take just a min or two to fix in only a single powerset.  Yet, the devs have told me that they don't feel the need to fix it at this time.  In the case of the Shred fix, it is literally a bug fix that the devs are choosing to ignore fixing.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Talesin2

[MTeague]

Regen scales up wonderfully with IO set bonuses. Stack enough of them, and you become just as "layered" as other defensive sets, with a couple of very nice "oh shit" buttons.

 

Now, that said, there are limits.  I don't think you can get close to capping any resistances.  And any Defense you do stack, you do so without ANY Defense Debuff Resistance.  For this reason, I think you get a lot more bang-for-the-buck slotting for +Res on /Regen than slotting for +Def.  I mean, having some +Def doesn't suck I wouldn't AVOID it.... I just think in the case of Regen, you're probably better off to try to bring some common damage resistances up to the 40% - 50% resist range.

 

and I definiltey agree it benefits the most from team buffs.

 

That said, I'm willing to get behind the OP's suggestion because the OP wasn't asking for the kitchen sink.  Wasn't asking for an Absorb toggle, wasn't asking for even IH to become a toggle. 

Was just asking for some meaningful amounts of Regen Debuff Resistance. 

 

I think you can make a decent case for that, same way that /SR got sky-high defense debuff resistance because Defense is really /SR main THING.... I think meaningful amounts of Regen Debuff Resistance belong added to /Regen.

 

And i ALSO think any AV's or Bosses that use regen should get exactly the same amount of Regen Debuff Resistance.

Edited May 20, 2020 by MTeague