Overwhelming Overpower: A Controller Inherent Buff - Control AVs and GMs!

[capricorpse]

23 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Also, given @capricorpse's experience with Dominator's, I'd definitely be interested in hearing your thoughts on this proposal for Controllers! I wanted to give the archetype a way of locking down larger targets, similar but different to the Dominator's Domination inherent. However, I definitely didn't want this proposal to overshadow the other Control archetype. Would love to hear what you think about Overwhelming Overpower - is it too powerful in comparison to what Dominators have, in a similar ballpark, or something else entirely?

I do love Controllers as well!  I think this is a good problem to weigh.  

 

The stacking Overpowerability is compelling, though I don't understand the numbers part enough to have a sense of how it would shake out in-game.  

 

An idea could be that instead, maybe landing their existing Overpower on an AV, it could break the purple triangle effect early?  In this case, it wouldn't also affect them with the hold, but maybe stacking holds or having the up-mag from Overpower could shatter their defense against it in the first place, creating openings for control to be used.  

 

This sort of statistical tweaking isn't quite my wheelhouse but I'd welcome any way to get controls onto tougher foes!   And I think that it's not going to step on a Dom's toes unless it becomes a click-buff magnitude increase like Domination (which I think should be tweaked anyway)

[Blackfeather]

3 hours ago, capricorpse said:

I do love Controllers as well!  I think this is a good problem to weigh.  

 

The stacking Overpowerability is compelling, though I don't understand the numbers part enough to have a sense of how it would shake out in-game.  

 

An idea could be that instead, maybe landing their existing Overpower on an AV, it could break the purple triangle effect early?  In this case, it wouldn't also affect them with the hold, but maybe stacking holds or having the up-mag from Overpower could shatter their defense against it in the first place, creating openings for control to be used.  

 

This sort of statistical tweaking isn't quite my wheelhouse but I'd welcome any way to get controls onto tougher foes!   And I think that it's not going to step on a Dom's toes unless it becomes a click-buff magnitude increase like Domination (which I think should be tweaked anyway)

Hey there, thanks for your response!

 

Basically, Overwhelming Overpower'll work mostly the same in normal play - it's really only against tougher targets that it'll begin to make itself known (or at least, that's the intent). Here's some comparative numbers about the likelihood of an Overwhelming Overpower going off during the Purple Triangles Up period, given some factors that I drafted up. Hope it helps to visualise it a bit more!

 

It gives the Controller the chance to flat out lock down an AV/GM with a single application of their power - I bank on the low-ish chance to stop it from being more potent than Domination, but it's definitely a hard balance to pull. I do like your idea of having a way of taking down those Purple Triangles early as well! I think @DougGraves mentioned the use of break bars and the like, which does sound pretty close to it. Though how to implement that sort of thing, I'm not sure of.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Blackfeather]

Going to ping @Naraka about this new addition to this proposal, since it's a bit of a deviation from just pure control:

Basically, it'd provide Controllers with the ability to instantly defeat enemies if they're sufficiently overpowered (i.e. +50 mag controls on minions/lieutenants) - a way to use their "crits" of sorts. Would be interested in hearing your thoughts on it!

[Blackfeather]

On 9/16/2020 at 2:42 AM, Blackfeather said:

Overpowering Overkill

Two points that have been brought up a few times in this thread:

• Controllers are a little bit slow at actually clearing out enemies in regular play
• Overwhelming Overpower does little against weaker enemies (Lieutenants and below)

 

As such, this additional proposal aims to address these two points in the following manner:

• An Overpower or above will instantly defeat Underling ranked enemies and below
  • 20% chance for instant defeat on power use
• An Overpower! or above will instantly defeat Minion ranked enemies and below
  • 10% chance for instant defeat on power use
• An Overpower!! or above will instantly defeat Lieutenant/Sniper ranked enemies and below
  • 5% chance for instant defeat on power use

 

This is flavoured as the Controller's higher magnitude powers fully overwhelming weaker enemies, and thus leading to their subsequent defeat. As such, the proposal might work well together with the previous suggestion of dynamically increasing the chance of an Overpower occurring.

Created a new additional proposal to Overwhelming Overpower. Thoughts/feedback welcome as always!

[Blackfeather]

Hello @Oneirohero! I'm sending you a ping because it looks like you're similarly interested in tweaking Controllers, from a previous post of yours. As such, I'd definitely be interested in hearing your thoughts on Overwhelming Overpower, which seeks to improve the Controller's ability to lock down AVs/GMs - how it stacks up to other inherents, whether or not it steps on the toes of Dominators, if it goes too far/is too little, and so on.

 

I'm also especially interested in hearing further thoughts about one of my newer secondary suggestions attached alongside the main proposal, Overpowering Overkill. It's designed to address another issue that's cropped up here and there with Controllers: that of the speed with which they clear things at.

 

Many thanks in advance if you decide to respond! 🙂

[Blackfeather]

Also will ping @krj12 for their thoughts - hello there! I've seen you around the Controller sub-forum, and it looks like you've a fair amount of experience with the archetype. As such, I'd definitely be interested in hearing your opinion on these proposed additions to the Controller's inherent, which I'm calling Overwhelming Overpower.

 

Mainly, it's meant to provide the archetype with a way to use status effects against AVs/GMs (when by default they generally don't have an effect, Purple Triangles notwithstanding), but I've also attempted to recently address the speed at which Controllers clear out the battlefield in normal play as well. Thoughts/feedback/critique welcome! 🙂

[Darkneblade]

Instant defeat sounds interesting but possible overpowered with plant/fire/ or any newer sets that all about damage (except illusion which has no control power). How about -Max HP? But it will work on AV's too.

Which equals to less time defeating them all around.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Darkneblade

[Blackfeather]

6 hours ago, Darkneblade said:

Instant defeat sounds interesting but possible overpowered with plant/fire/ or any newer sets that all about damage (except illusion which has no control power). How about -Max HP? But it will work on AV's too.

Which equals to less time defeating them all around.

There's a few reasons that I went the way I did with Overpowering Overkill:

• Damage focused Controllers don't really benefit from this addition - they can bring down enemies quickly enough for it not to matter
• Low damaging, but lockdown heavy Controllers will be aided the most, as most of their damage comes from repeated use of their primary powers
  • I.e. spamming Holds and Immobilises
• It has potential synergies with +Chance to Overpower, depending on how it's implemented, thus enhancing the prior two points further
  • E.g. higher chances to occur based on the amount of magnitude stacked on an enemy
• It was purposefully focused on helping to take down lower ranking enemies, thus speeding up Controllers when alone/in low damage groups
  • @Uun pointed out that status effects/buffs/debuffs don't really matter if enemies are defeated too quickly
  • I didn't want to exacerbate this against tougher foes, hence why it doesn't really affect bosses and above

Kinda curious as to how this'd affect Mind Control as well, since it does have a lot of powers that benefit from Overpower, so pinging @MTeague for thoughts on this additional proposal. To quickly recap - I made an addition to the original suggestion, as can be seen below:

Quote

Overpowering Overkill

Two points that have been brought up a few times in this thread:

• Controllers are a little bit slow at actually clearing out enemies in regular play
• Overwhelming Overpower does little against weaker enemies (Lieutenants and below)

 

As such, this additional proposal aims to address these two points in the following manner:

• An Overpower or above will instantly defeat Underling ranked enemies and below
  • 20% chance for instant defeat on power use
• An Overpower! or above will instantly defeat Minion ranked enemies and below
  • 10% chance for instant defeat on power use
• An Overpower!! or above will instantly defeat Lieutenant/Sniper ranked enemies and below
  • 5% chance for instant defeat on power use
• An Overpower!!! will instantly defeat Boss ranked enemies and below
  • 1% chance for instant defeat on power use

 

This is flavoured as the Controller's higher magnitude powers fully overwhelming weaker enemies, and thus leading to their subsequent defeat. As such, the proposal might work well together with the previous suggestion of dynamically increasing the chance of an Overpower occurring.

Would definitely be interested in hearing what people think of it!

Edited November 1, 2020 by Blackfeather

[MTeague]

8 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Kinda curious as to how this'd affect Mind Control as well, since it does have a lot of powers that benefit from Overpower, so pinging @MTeague for thoughts on this additional proposal.

My thoughts

• For Overwhelming Overpower (additional control mag), I'd need to play around with it somewhat before I can give a full-throated endorsement.  raw proposed numbers don't translate well in my head to the feel of how it would play in practice.  But I'm cautiously optimistic that it can be made to work well.
• For Overwhelming Overkill (chance to insta-defeat), it's simply not a thing that I feel is needed.  Killing Bosses and below is not an issue for my Mind/Kin.  Even for EB's or AV's, I can dish out enough damage.... if I can reliably establish CONTROL. 

Now, that said, my Mind Controller is, as stated, MIND/KIN.  And Confuse is my hands-down favorite form of control in the game.  Between Confuse and Mass Confuse, I do not lack for options to have clouds of foes defeat quickly each other at my behest.  And with Terrify and Cross Punch, I don't notice any XP loss at all.  

 

It's really the Purple Triangles of Doom that are only brick wall my controller runs face-first into. 

Single hard targets that can't be reliably controlled but which can take me down in a disturbingly short time.   

 

When I'm faced with the Envoy of Shadow, I generally make a sad face and die, until I remember to go get myself a Shivan, speed boost the shivan, spam Transfusion and try to keep the Shivan standing before the Envoy can melt it. If the Shivan dies, I follow within seconds. If not, I win.  I find that type of victory terribly unsatisfying, because at that point it's not MY powers making virtually any difference. If I spam cast controls between Tranfusions I can sometimes control the Envoy for approximately 10 seconds before purple triangles take over again and break him free.

 

I get that all developers have been averse to City of Statues if Controls were made tooooo strong.  But establishing Control is the only way a Mind Controller can solo anything.  

So far my solution to this, is grin and bear the use of Shivans for certain edge cases when I'm on a flashback marathon, or teaming. 

 

If I have greater ability to lock down through Purple Triangles, even if that ability is ONLY active when truly SOLO, then I'd feel more like I can walk into any missoin, anywhere, and emerge victrorious. 

 

That said, "teaming" is not really a dirty word, and it's not the end of the world if the devs decide there is no good solution and some things just require certain combos to team vs solo. 

[Blackfeather]

On 11/2/2020 at 9:48 AM, MTeague said:

My thoughts

• For Overwhelming Overpower (additional control mag), I'd need to play around with it somewhat before I can give a full-throated endorsement.  raw proposed numbers don't translate well in my head to the feel of how it would play in practice.  But I'm cautiously optimistic that it can be made to work well.
• For Overwhelming Overkill (chance to insta-defeat), it's simply not a thing that I feel is needed.  Killing Bosses and below is not an issue for my Mind/Kin.  Even for EB's or AV's, I can dish out enough damage.... if I can reliably establish CONTROL. 

Now, that said, my Mind Controller is, as stated, MIND/KIN.  And Confuse is my hands-down favorite form of control in the game.  Between Confuse and Mass Confuse, I do not lack for options to have clouds of foes defeat quickly each other at my behest.  And with Terrify and Cross Punch, I don't notice any XP loss at all.  

 

It's really the Purple Triangles of Doom that are only brick wall my controller runs face-first into. 

Single hard targets that can't be reliably controlled but which can take me down in a disturbingly short time.   

 

When I'm faced with the Envoy of Shadow, I generally make a sad face and die, until I remember to go get myself a Shivan, speed boost the shivan, spam Transfusion and try to keep the Shivan standing before the Envoy can melt it. If the Shivan dies, I follow within seconds. If not, I win.  I find that type of victory terribly unsatisfying, because at that point it's not MY powers making virtually any difference. If I spam cast controls between Tranfusions I can sometimes control the Envoy for approximately 10 seconds before purple triangles take over again and break him free.

 

I get that all developers have been averse to City of Statues if Controls were made tooooo strong.  But establishing Control is the only way a Mind Controller can solo anything.  

So far my solution to this, is grin and bear the use of Shivans for certain edge cases when I'm on a flashback marathon, or teaming. 

 

If I have greater ability to lock down through Purple Triangles, even if that ability is ONLY active when truly SOLO, then I'd feel more like I can walk into any missoin, anywhere, and emerge victrorious. 

 

That said, "teaming" is not really a dirty word, and it's not the end of the world if the devs decide there is no good solution and some things just require certain combos to team vs solo. 

  That makes sense - thanks for putting your thoughts forth! I've definitely had similar experiences against Elite Bosses with the Purple Triangles at the lower levels and so on with this Plant Control/Cold Domination character of mine...when the -Recharge debuffs from your secondary are doing more to improve your survivability than your actual controls, it definitely feels a little backwards.

 

Sadly, I'm not exactly versed in power development, otherwise it'd be something I'd love to test out to see if it'd work well in practice, especially since it feels like there's a lot of variables to juggle all at once. Having a chance to lock down AVs/GMs kind of requires considering how that chance'll scale with the amount of Controllers on the team, something that @FoulVileTerror did bring up - being significant enough on a smaller team/solo vs. adding more Controllers to the group.

 

I'm still in the process of figuring out how best to do this...but unfortunately, only testing it out'll really work, I suppose, even if I do napkin-math as best as I can, such as with the likelihood of an Overwhelming Overpower going off given a specific amount of status effect inducing powers. And then the variables increase from there if I end up introducing other mechanics such as the whole +Chance to Overpower thing, along with the different ways in which that might be implemented as a means of aiding with the reliability of this, without straying from the whole binary nature of status effects. It's a lot to factor in!

 

At the moment, I'm thinking of some kind of hybrid mechanism that factors in:

• The different status effects currently applied on an enemy
• The magnitude of each of these separate status effects

And using that to increase the chance of an Overpower occurring. Sadly, math really isn't my strong point here.

 

I've heard some Earth Controllers do similarly to what you're describing with your use of a Shivan with their Animate Stone pet, due to how it draws aggro, and the fact that it's extremely durable. And of course, Illusion Control's Phantom Army takes that up to eleven, where maintaining aggro basically is their form of control. It does make one ask why some control powersets are better at handling stronger opponents, purely because of the kind of control that they favour. Which I suppose is what Overwhelming Overpower is attempting to rectify in the first place.

 

And yeah, Overpowering Overkill might definitely be a little extra, hahah. I'm personally okay with the amount of damage my Controllers deal outside of some powerset picks...but that might be better resolved with improving them rather than outright changing their inherent. Ice Control could do with something more for instance - speaking of which, I probably need to do a writeup on that too. It was more for the people in this thread such as @BitCook and @Uun who've mentioned that status effects are less useful in teams where enemies are defeated faster; additional survivability is less important there. Plus, there are definitely some combinations that'll be much slower than others solo.