Game Balance & The Endgame

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

What are you expecting to happen? That this conversation is going to produce the solution, that the devs will then take that as offered and go implement it?

I literally just said the opposite.  

 

I think y'all are worried they will make the game harder for some reason and you are trying to defend the breach or something.  

 

You are worried for nothing.  They aren't going to make the game harder.  

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

I literally just said the opposite.  

 

I think y'all are worried they will make the game harder for some reason and you are trying to defend the breach or something.  

 

You are worried for nothing.  They aren't going to make the game harder.  

Ah, well no I’m not worried they’re going to do that. I agree, they won’t.

 

Rather, I am letting others know they won’t, who think they might.

[WindDemon21]

4 hours ago, summers said:

While I and a lot of other people desire greater difficulty at the 50+ incarnate level, I wouldn't want to see it come at the expense of anyone that wants to steamroll this content. I think that's an inherent and crucial part of the fun of the game.

 

Having said that, there are difficulty sliders and there should remain a difficulty where you can run through them like a hot knife through butter.

 

The higher difficulty should scale more intelligently and be actually difficult rather than a cakewalk at +4. That's really all I want. A fair but difficult level of gameplay where powers like holds, stuns, -recharge or -tohit debuffs are actually relevant. 

Which is exactly why the purple patch should not affect debuffs/controls. Make +3s and 4s harder, but debuffs/controls get full value to make those sets more desired on a team.

[Troo]

just a reminder: designing games in Excel is not a good idea

[agentx5]

On 9/25/2020 at 9:07 AM, ShardWarrior said:

The players who left en masse after ED, GDN, purple patch and the like disagree with you.

What about the blasted aggro cap?  That crap gets on my nerves (and often gets the squishies killed even when the tank is trying their best to hold the enemies' attention)

 

Actually caps in general get on my nerves.  Like really, why do you need to limit an AOE's target?  If the enemies are dumb enough or the tactics were smart enough to have the enemies clustered up like that, they got what they deserved.

 

IMHO, for what it's worth from a game tester, the best simple-fix ones I feel that could honestly REALLY REALLY help are:

1. Sorcery Pool, particularly [Spirit Ward] & [Enflame] are quite useless. The duration is too short (5 seconds), and the buff amount is laughable. 
2. Electric Blast, needs to have -END scrapped, enemies are more likely to run out of HP first. [Voltatic Sentinel] is a disaster. Two good suggested 2nd effect replacements were:
   a) chain/jump to an additional target for minor damage 
   b) brief mag 2 or 3 stun/disorient mez effect
3. Kheldian's Inherent Power, [Cosmic Balance] needs a buff badly... RedLynne had the best suggestion on this I've seen: a team PBAoE buff that Kheldians give themselves and Leaguemates when in range, based on the types or archetype allies that are within range.  Should be "Oooh a Warshade/Peacebringer joined the team!", and encourage a bit more players to try a Kheldian out.
4. Blasters, less DEF & RES, and in return raise the damage cap and lessen the area modifier's effect on [Defiance] while also increasing the duration by at least 2.5 seconds. (note, still can't hit cap without help).  This helps blasters be less like tankers, and more of the mantra of "kill them before they can kill you"
5. Remove [Hasten], *gasp* replace that 70% by putting it towards something else (i.e.: buffed set bonuses, gambler's global, etc) that everyone can enjoy.  It's a bit too much of a must-have for most builds, so maybe there's a more universal way to perma-Dom and such without sacrificing a power slot (and the activation noise it makes every 2 min or so), hence the suggestion offered by others for it to be baked-in A.T.O. enhancements.

Edited September 29, 2020 by agentx5

[Wavicle]

19 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Which is exactly why the purple patch should not affect debuffs/controls. Make +3s and 4s harder, but debuffs/controls get full value to make those sets more desired on a team.

This would probably also improve the debuffs and controls of other ATs... but it’s an interesting idea.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, agentx5 said:

What about the blasted aggro cap?  That crap gets on my nerves (and often gets the squishies killed even when the tank is trying their best to hold the enemies' attention)

 

Actually caps in general get on my nerves.  Like really, why do you need to limit an AOE's target?  If the enemies are dumb enough or the tactics were smart enough to have the enemies clustered up like that, they got what they deserved.

 

But the best simple-fix ones I feel that could honestly REALLY REALLY help are:

1. Sorcery Pool, particularly [Spirit Ward] & [Enflame] are quite useless. The duration is too short (5 seconds), and the buff amount is laughable. 
2. Electric Blast, needs to have -END scrapped, enemies are more likely to run out of HP first. [Voltatic Sentinel] is a disaster. Two good suggested 2nd effect replacements were:
   a) chain/jump to an additional target for minor damage 
   b) brief mag 2 or 3 stun/disorient mez effect
3. Kheldian's Inherent Power, [Cosmic Balance] needs a buff badly... RedLynne had the best suggestion on this I've seen: a team PBAoE buff that Kheldians give themselves and Leaguemates when in range, based on the types or archetype allies that are within range.  Should be "Oooh a Warshade/Peacebringer joined the team!", and encourage a bit more players to try a Kheldian out.
4. Blasters, less DEF & RES, and in return raise the damage cap and lessen the area modifier's effect on [Defiance] while also increasing the duration by at least 2.5 seconds. (note, still can't hit cap without help).  This helps blasters be less like tankers, and more of the mantra of "kill them before they can kill you"
5. Remove [Hasten], *gasp* replace that 70% by putting it towards something else (i.e.: buffed set bonuses, gambler's global, etc) that everyone can enjoy.  It's a bit too much of a must-have for most builds, so maybe there's a more universal way to perma-Dom and such without sacrificing a power slot (and the activation noise it makes every 2 min or so), hence the suggestion offered by others for it to be baked-in A.T.O. enhancements.

lol There is absolutely no way in hell they are going to rebalance the game to not have Hasten.

 

CoH 2.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Wavicle

[reib]

Just remove the support powers from all blasters secondary and decrease HP's to 1606. 

Transform Defiance to be proportional (-hp/+dmg).

A real glass cannon.

Edited September 29, 2020 by reib

[Wavicle]

No. We tried that, it was not that fun.

[reib]

Then at least one of the first two things...

 

[ABlueThingy]

4 hours ago, reib said:

Then at least one of the first two things...

 

That's more or less how Blasters were at the start of the game.  The issue is that Defiance giving good bonuses it meant you had to have low health.  And blasters without protection die to virtually everything. 

 

You might be able to do what you're suggesting if instead we left the protection alone and changed Defiance* back. Blasters are much tougher now and have a better chance of leveraging things.  You might have to also give all the blaster def powers a stacking bonus for having high Vig.  Bonus absorb at low health or something so it's not impossible to stay floating down at the bottom of the HP pool.

 

Blasters would "Get more squishy" not by virtue of being nerf'd but through sheer scrapperlock.  It's a thought anyway.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by ABlueThingy
*corrected per Wavicle, thank you!

[Naraka]

17 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

To be clear I'm not against nerfs (or targetted buffs) as long as as any 8 players can still steam roll the game. Things like more debuffs for mobs, more bosses in missions and many of the interesting things suggested over the years,  though should only appear in the higher level difficulty that teams CHOOSE to undertake

Then it's weird how much you were pushing the argument when this is literally what those you were arguing were discussing. No one is talking about bringing back the trinity but they are talking about reigning some things in from a hypothetical stand point. 

 

Also, if they altered the balance so +2s were more like +4s and shifted some stuff around so +5s were also viable targets without incarnate levels, it's a wider window for stronger teams. Maybe then, people would have a use for -1 difficulty as well as turning off bosses if they want the game easier...

 

16 hours ago, Wavicle said:

What are you expecting to happen? That this conversation is going to produce the solution, that the devs will then take that as offered and go implement it?

That the conversation would at least not undermine the issues of some. I don't think anyone's asking to push casual gameplay up a notch, but rather acknowledging that the few notches that exist are very confined. But some opponents are perceiving things as if we are suggesting to put a heel on the casual to make room for hardcore. To put it more in perspective, the casual has stomped the hardcore out of existence. No one's asking for hardcore to come back... But there is still constant requests to buff more stuff. 

16 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Ah, well no I’m not worried they’re going to do that. I agree, they won’t.

 

Rather, I am letting others know they won’t, who think they might.

Who are the "others" you're trying to convince? And you'll do that by covering up legitimate points in a fog of misconstrusion? 

15 hours ago, Wavicle said:

This would probably also improve the debuffs and controls of other ATs... but it’s an interesting idea.

You could add a new effect that either fights debuff resistance to certain powers or to ATs via their inherent. 

[Haijinx]

The funny thing is that I'm actually a pretty casual player.

 

I just figured out that if I play one character at a time instead of 10, that character starts to have a pretty decent build after a few weeks. 

 

I only have one billion+ influence build character.  But that character laughs at everything I can throw at it. 

 

I have a fair number of 300 mil characters now, and with even a little support they aren't far behind. 

 

And I don't have any real COH playing skill.  I just jump into the spawns and mash buttons.   

 

So for the actual hardcore players this game must really seem easy.

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

That's more or less how Blasters were at the start of the game.  The issue is that defiance giving good bonuses it meant you had to have low health.  And blasters without protection die to virtually everything. 

 

You might be able to do what you're suggesting if instead we left the protection alone and changed Vig back. Blasters are much tougher now and have a better chance of leveraging things.  You might have to also give all the blaster def powers a stacking bonus for having high Vig.  Bonus absorb at low health or something so it's not impossible to stay floating down at the bottom of the HP pool.

 

Blasters would "Get more squishy" not by virtue of being nerf'd but through sheer scrapperlock.  It's a thought anyway.

Defiance. Vigilance is the Defender inherent.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

Who are the "others" you're trying to convince? And you'll do that by covering up legitimate points in a fog of misconstrusion? 

Who? Anyone who thinks wholesale rebalancing of the game is on the table. I'm not covering up any legitimate points with any misinformation or anything like that. I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

You could add a new effect that either fights debuff resistance to certain powers or to ATs via their inherent. 

Maybe. Might be a lot more effort than it's worth, but as a non dev I can't really say.
 

[Naraka]

20 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Who? Anyone who thinks wholesale rebalancing of the game is on the table. I'm not covering up any legitimate points with any misinformation or anything like that. I have no idea what you're talking about.

By "who" in asking which specific people were you talking to to have such a powerful need to get your point across. Who were you discussing this with specifically? 

 

Also I didn't say misinformation, I said misconstrusion. You must have been intentionally or unintentionally misunderstanding something. 

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Naraka said:

By "who" in asking which specific people were you talking to to have such a powerful need to get your point across. Who were you discussing this with specifically? 

It's a long thread. I'm not going to go back and list names.

 

3 minutes ago, Naraka said:

You must have been intentionally or unintentionally misunderstanding something. 

Such as?

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Maybe. Might be a lot more effort than it's worth, but as a non dev I can't really say.

 

Forgot this part. I think the main point there was someone suggested making debuffs/controls for those specialized ATs to be valued more on stronger foes thus making them more valuable on +3 to +4 (and in my suggestion, +5s). But the issue might be that ATs that use those effects supplementary would get high benifits too, to which I said you can attach such bonuses to those ATs or those ATs' powers. Just clariying because I'm not sure if you're saying such an effect might not be worth the effort of the overall idea of making such specializations more valuable not being worthy of the effort. 

[Naraka]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It's a long thread. I'm not going to go back and list names.

 

Such as?

Well obviously who you're talking to and their views. Lol if I'm trying to make a point, it's usually in opposition to a specific argument that I can attribute a person I'm critical of. 

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Forgot this part. I think the main point there was someone suggested making debuffs/controls for those specialized ATs to be valued more on stronger foes thus making them more valuable on +3 to +4 (and in my suggestion, +5s). But the issue might be that ATs that use those effects supplementary would get high benifits too, to which I said you can attach such bonuses to those ATs or those ATs' powers. Just clariying because I'm not sure if you're saying such an effect might not be worth the effort of the overall idea of making such specializations more valuable not being worthy of the effort. 

Oh I actually like the idea, I was just saying, because I don't know how the game gets coded, I don't know how difficult such a thing might be. I think in general the AT modifiers are meant to address that, but perhaps they aren't enough to make the difference.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Naraka said:

Well obviously who you're talking to and their views. Lol if I'm trying to make a point, it's usually in opposition to a specific argument that I can attribute a person I'm critical of. 

There are several people who have suggested the entire game needs to be rebalanced. I don't remember who exactly.

[ABlueThingy]

18 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

There are several people who have suggested the entire game needs to be rebalanced. I don't remember who exactly.

I forget if I said out right, but I definitely implied it!

 

But more accurately I think there's big parts of the game that could be tweaked or reworked that would (ideally) improve the game for the majority of players.  Not literally the whole thing though.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

There are several people who have suggested the entire game needs to be rebalanced. I don't remember who exactly.

It does! 

 

Its plainly obvious that it does.

 

It won't be though.  

 

You seem worried someone will go and run with that idea though.  Or now evidently your afraid someone in the audience is afraid that the Devs will go off and run with it and you are safeguarding them from these libelous ideas.  

 

And thus protecting the world from 40 years of the Devs being locked in the basement. 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

It does! 

 

Its plainly obvious that it does.

 

It won't be though.  

 

You seem worried someone will go and run with that idea though.  Or now evidently your afraid someone in the audience is afraid that the Devs will go off and run with it and you are safeguarding them from these libelous ideas.  

 

And thus protecting the world from 40 years of the Devs being locked in the basement. 

No. It doesn’t. And I’m not afraid it’s going to happen, because the devs know it doesn’t, except at the endgame.

[Haijinx]

10 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

No. It doesn’t. And I’m not afraid it’s going to happen, because the devs know it doesn’t, except at the endgame.