Game Balance & The Endgame

[Dragotect]

17 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

you don't like Star Wars quotes?

I don't like meme attacks as a form of shutting down another person's opinion. And, the opinion that the paid for sets we're a touch of power creep, or a heaping of it (TW is probably the biggest offender), and could use a bit of a nerf sits fine with me. At the same time, sets like Regen and energy melee should have steps taken to return them to some semblance of what they were before their nerfs.

 

I also agree Dom's/controllers could use better damage output. As it is now, they are my least enjoyable to solo. If a Dom is control/damage, none of its modifiers should be less than 1.00. Since controllers are control/support I'm more inclined to buy that. Dom's is really mind boggling as a partial damage AT that it was done that way. The example of the brutes vs tanks is really on point when comparing blasters and dominators. I also found the dom pet pointless, without support to keep it alive it was just an annoyance (immobilize, the one mass control that is up reliably from fight to fight just wasn't enough damage mitigation).

Edited October 4, 2020 by Dragotect

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

You're being ridiculous. I quoted Coyote. I was CLEARLY responding to what Coyote said. You just chose not to pay attention to that and now you're being snide even though you're in the wrong.

And you're being intentionally obtuse. The point of clarifying history is so that history is understood, not to make some OTHER point.

Wow you do realize that you first responded to me here.  Unfortunately you are being ridiculous.  For some reason you can comment on my post but you think I can't comment on yours. what??? 

 

And then you respond with unproductive, unconstructive drivel like this. 

 

Also your response to Coyote was a response to Coyote's post which itself was a post in response to my post See Coyote quoted me.  You realize that right?  So I was following the conversation. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by FUBARczar

[Grouchybeast]

16 minutes ago, Dragotect said:

I also agree Dom's/controllers could use better damage output. As it is now, they are my least enjoyable to solo. If a Dom is control/damage, none of its modifiers should be less than 1.00. Since controllers are control/support I'm more inclined to buy that. Dom's is really mind boggling as a partial damage AT that it was done that way. The example of the brutes vs tanks is really on point when comparing blasters and dominators. I also found the dom pet pointless, without support to keep it alive it was just an annoyance (immobilize, the one mass control that is up reliably from fight to fight just wasn't enough damage mitigation).

The Dom damage scalar is already 1 (a smidgen under for range, a smidgen over for melee).  They have the third highest damage scalar in the game after Blasters and Scrappers, equal with Stalkers and VEATS.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Dragotect said:

I don't like meme attacks as a form of shutting down another person's opinion.

it was for levity, it wasn't intended to shut down an opinion.  It was really just a play on words.  As far as TW, it is head and shoulders above other sets for scrappers, but not for Brutes and Tanks.  Just hope they keep that in mind and scale it back for the standout scrappers w/o harming the other ATs.   

 

1 hour ago, Dragotect said:

sets like Regen and energy melee should have steps taken to return them to some semblance of what they were before their nerfs.

Agreed

 

1 hour ago, Dragotect said:

I also agree Dom's/controllers could use better damage output. As it is now, they are my least enjoyable to solo. If a Dom is control/damage, none of its modifiers should be less than 1.00. Since controllers are control/support I'm more inclined to buy that. Dom's is really mind boggling as a partial damage AT that it was done that way. The example of the brutes vs tanks is really on point when comparing blasters and dominators. I also found the dom pet pointless, without support to keep it alive it was just an annoyance (immobilize, the one mass control that is up reliably from fight to fight just wasn't enough damage mitigation).

Amen 

Edited October 4, 2020 by FUBARczar

[Wavicle]

13 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

Wow you do realize that you first responded to me here.  Unfortunately you are being ridiculous.  For some reason you can comment on my post but you think I can't comment on yours. what??? 

 

And then you respond with unproductive, unconstructive drivel like this. 

 

Also your response to Coyote was a response to Coyote's post which itself was a post in response to my post See Coyote quoted me.  You realize that right?  So I was following the conversation. 

And then every response of yours has been an attack. "Your argument is without merit." When YOUR argument is to ASSERT that Doms don't do enough damage. You cite the numbers of individual powers in a vacuum as if that means something and then get angry with me simply for disagreeing. Just drop it.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

And then every response of yours has been an attack. "Your argument is without merit." When YOUR argument is to ASSERT that Doms don't do enough damage. You cite the numbers of individual powers in a vacuum as if that means something and then get angry with me simply for disagreeing. Just drop it.

no they have not all been attacks, not to mention you initiated the reduced-civility.  And stating "Your argument is without merit." is not an attack (no need to take it personally), it was meant to accurately assess the argument you were making, and I gave several examples why the argument wasn't a good one. 

 

I also didn't cite numbers of individual powers.  The only numbers I cited were AT damage modifiers. When I asserted that Doms need a boost (to damage) to have more parity with their counter-AT (Blasters) I gave reasoning, examples, etc.  

 

I didn't get angry with you for disagreeing, that is silly.  I didn't care for your posts that weren't constructive, or claimed that somehow I had no right to respond to your posts and what not. 

 

But sure we can end this, but I may respond to future posts on germane topics with germane discussion.  

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Grouchybeast said:

The Dom damage scalar is already 1 (a smidgen under for range, a smidgen over for melee).  They have the third highest damage scalar in the game after Blasters and Scrappers, equal with Stalkers and VEATS.

True it's close to 1.0, Melee is 1.05 and Range is 0.95.  I think Dominators are close, we aren't arguing for a large makeover.  Just a smidge more damage to bring them more in line with the counter-AT, Blasters.  Even is Doms had the same damage scalar they would still do less damage, because the Blaster, Scrapper and Stalker inherents add more damage.  Also Doms have fewer melee attacks than blasters have primary/ranged attacks. 

 

I think it's interesting to up the damage scalars to be the same as Blasters but in reverse, which would be for Dominators Melee: 1.125 and Range 1.0.  Again Dominators would not have a full attack chain of melee powers with the higher damage modifier, so they will still do less damage than blasters, especially when you add the extra damage from the inherent that blasters have.  Also moving into melee range is more dangerous, so it's high risk, high reward kind of thing as well.  They are still glass cannons.

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, Dragotect said:

I don't like meme attacks as a form of shutting down another person's opinion. And, the opinion that the paid for sets we're a touch of power creep, or a heaping of it (TW is probably the biggest offender), and could use a bit of a nerf sits fine with me. At the same time, sets like Regen and energy melee should have steps taken to return them to some semblance of what they were before their nerfs.

 

 

 

56 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

it was for levity, it wasn't intended to shut down an opinion.  It was really just a play on words.  As far as TW, it is head and shoulders above other sets for scrappers, but not for Brutes and Tanks.  Just hope they keep that in mind and scale it back for the standout scrappers w/o harming the other ATs.   

 

 

Ha, no offense taken!

 

I have to imagine that managing a project like Homecoming, with no economic incentive and with few/no big backers to please, is like trying to manage a long-term series of dinner parties.  You want to invite a lot of interesting people, you want to hear what they want to eat and drink, you want to have a good time yourself.  That's the key here -- it's not a democracy.  The people making the rules want a playing environment that at the end of the day works for them.  They may listen to the belligerent drunks who yell throughout dinner how they are vegan and how everyone else has to be vegan as well, but they aren't going to institute their guests' rules just because they are loud and outspoken.  And frankly, the drunks may not get invited back.

[Leogunner]

13 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

I did, maybe that person can start an SO-only SG, so all like minded players can team together and find their balance together.

Then you read it and failed to understand.  The whole line of discussion was criticizing the effect IOs had on balance, not harkening back SO-only.  You loose grip on context when you start shot gunning your replies.

6 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

True it's close to 1.0, Melee is 1.05 and Range is 0.95.  I think Dominators are close, we aren't arguing for a large makeover.  Just a smidge more damage to bring them more in line with the counter-AT, Blasters.  Even is Doms had the same damage scalar they would still do less damage, because the Blaster, Scrapper and Stalker inherents add more damage.  Also Doms have fewer melee attacks than blasters have primary/ranged attacks. 

 

I think it's interesting to up the damage scalars to be the same as Blasters but in reverse, which would be for Dominators Melee: 1.125 and Range 1.0.  Again Dominators would not have a full attack chain of melee powers with the higher damage modifier, so they will still do less damage than blasters, especially when you add the extra damage from the inherent that blasters have.  Also moving into melee range is more dangerous, so it's high risk, high reward kind of thing as well.  They are still glass cannons.

And I find this line of discussion pretty hilarious.  You're quick to cut off people asking for nerfs but you'll jump on an opportunity to ask for unneeded buffs.

 

Doms don't need more damage and it'd be pretty foolish to go by blanket modifiers for an AT who has arguably made out like bandits thanks to the IO system.  The only aspect Dom gets the short end of the stick on is that controls are not as effective in some late-game content.  And lamenting the pet?  ~Laughs in Mastermind~

 

Doms don't just do damage from the secondary.  They get damage from all around, be it incarnate, IOs, procs, epic pools, their primary, etc.  Are they the top in damage?  Arguably no...and they shouldn't even be close because damage isn't their focus...it's control.  You don't really hear Stalkers begging for extra buffs despite them doing less damage than a Dom, and again, the reason a Dom will outpace a Stalker has wholly to do with what its specialty is (it's Single Target DPS, in case you don't know).  A Stalker will outpace mostly anyone in ST DPS but fights aren't done one at a time.

 

That aside, I'll just say, if your Dom isn't doing enough damage then fix your build.  If that excuse is good enough for you to throw out to others, it's good enough for you to take your own advice.  Cheers.

[FUBARczar]

5 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Then you read it and failed to understand.  The whole line of discussion was criticizing the effect IOs had on balance, not harkening back SO-only.  You loose grip on context when you start shot gunning your replies.

I didn't lose grip on context.  What you fail to understand is what IOs offer.  IOs open up so many more build opportunities and variety.  IOs open up more varied choices from picking sets knowing that you can cover annoying holes or effects like egregious KB.  Crying that IOs messed things up is silly.  And you can play with out IOs with others that don't have IOs and you can have your vaunted team balance back, so your CC is more valuable, or your heals, or whatever.

 

5 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Doms don't just do damage from the secondary.  They get damage from all around, be it incarnate, IOs, procs, epic pools, their primary, etc.  Are they the top in damage?  Arguably no...and they shouldn't even be close because damage isn't their focus...it's control.  You don't really hear Stalkers begging for extra buffs despite them doing less damage than a Dom, and again, the reason a Dom will outpace a Stalker has wholly to do with what its specialty is (it's Single Target DPS, in case you don't know).  A Stalker will outpace mostly anyone in ST DPS but fights aren't done one at a time.

 

That aside, I'll just say, if your Dom isn't doing enough damage then fix your build.  If that excuse is good enough for you to throw out to others, it's good enough for you to take your own advice.  Cheers.

yeah my Doms do great for Doms and I'd bet better than yours as well, but they still are a bottom tier AT, in that they aren't a force multiplier, virtually no debuffs or buffs, quasi useless pets, less survivability that every other AT really (more or less on par with Blasters), etc. etc.  If you actually read some of the earlier posts (like this one) you could have been more familiar with the context and the basis for minor buffs, but you must have been too busy shot gunning a response to do that I suppose.  Classic, accuse others of what you do yourself. 

 

Lol a stalker does less damage than a Dom, your ignorance is telling.  

[Ralathar44]

On 10/1/2020 at 6:52 PM, golstat2003 said:

It's not just that. But if the reward is not great enough to meet the challenge most folks won't do it. Case in point: The fact that folks actively avoid certain groups while running newspaper missions today. Aka Council after council radio/newspaper mission.

 

They will do it once or twice to see what it's like, but after a while it will become pretty clear that they could be progressing faster in other easier content.

Even I avoid Malta most of the time.  Not because I mind the difficulty but equal parts because the difficulty spike for the same rewards is rather large and because sappers are just not fun.  I don't mind Carnies endurance drain or The Freakshow Super Stunner drain or the Arachnos Mu boss drain because I feel that I can adjust my tactics or just tank the drain for my team and focus on surviving and keeping my toggles up instead of doing damage.  But if Sappers land their drains you're basically guaranteed zero endo toggles down so it's kind of a binary of either you have enough defense not to get hit by them or you're fully drained every other fight (or every fight).  I don't mind how much damage they do or the crazy range hold missiles or etc, even when I'm on something that can be held that's squishy, but sappers break them in terms of fun.

[Ralathar44]

14 hours ago, Dragotect said:

I don't like meme attacks as a form of shutting down another person's opinion. And, the opinion that the paid for sets we're a touch of power creep, or a heaping of it (TW is probably the biggest offender), and could use a bit of a nerf sits fine with me. At the same time, sets like Regen and energy melee should have steps taken to return them to some semblance of what they were before their nerfs.

 

I also agree Dom's/controllers could use better damage output. As it is now, they are my least enjoyable to solo. If a Dom is control/damage, none of its modifiers should be less than 1.00. Since controllers are control/support I'm more inclined to buy that. Dom's is really mind boggling as a partial damage AT that it was done that way. The example of the brutes vs tanks is really on point when comparing blasters and dominators. I also found the dom pet pointless, without support to keep it alive it was just an annoyance (immobilize, the one mass control that is up reliably from fight to fight just wasn't enough damage mitigation).

A good portion of the active posters here are highly anti-nerf.  Like they support it as a concept but then seem to fight any significant version of it.  So just expect any idea of a nerf that has any real teeth to be reacted to unfavorably with passive aggressive (and rarely actively aggressive) attacks by some folks here.  Some take it to the degree they are willing to defend TW despite the copious evidence and direct developer statement its the most overperfoming set, some are pretty much in the camp of "TW can be nerfed but nothing else significant"...basically using TW as a shield to show how reasonable they are to defend their own toys.

[Ralathar44]

14 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

Wow you do realize that you first responded to me here.  Unfortunately you are being ridiculous.  For some reason you can comment on my post but you think I can't comment on yours. what??? 

 

And then you respond with unproductive, unconstructive drivel like this. 

 

Also your response to Coyote was a response to Coyote's post which itself was a post in response to my post See Coyote quoted me.  You realize that right?  So I was following the conversation. 

Most "forum warriors" (or twitter or facebook or etc) live their life 1 post at a time and quickly lose the context of a conversation and it's all about "winning" the current "battle".  I pointed the same thing out earlier in the thread, only without throwing someone on a pyre quite as harshly.  It shouldn't be that way, but it is what it is.  It's part of why online text conversation is a poor method of communication and why modern society is having such a problem with it being one of our main methods of new/communications in the modern age.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Ralathar44

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Ralathar44 said:

A good portion of the active posters here are highly anti-nerf.  Like they support it as a concept but then seem to fight any significant version of it.  So just expect any idea of a nerf that has any real teeth to be reacted to unfavorably with passive aggressive (and rarely actively aggressive) attacks by some folks here.  Some take it to the degree they are willing to defend TW despite the copious evidence and direct developer statement its the most overperfoming set, some are pretty much in the camp of "TW can be nerfed but nothing else significant"...basically using TW as a shield to show how reasonable they are to defend their own toys.

Well, what I posted wasn't an attack or aggressive, it was just a pun, but I guess you had to be there...

 

Ok now about TW.  Let's not throw the baby our with the bathwater.  TW is not crazy OP, except on scrappers, so it does deserve a trim.  Fine, I'm already over it.  But the changes should be such that it doesn't harm Tanks and Brutes, for which TW is not OP.  I'd also advocate avoiding Energy Melee type nerfs that took a popular top performer and turned into an old shoe overnight.  So let's be careful to give it a trim (for scrappers) and not cut off an ear or the whole head. 

 

So what do you think needs to be nerfed after TW?

[Ralathar44]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

I didn't lose grip on context.  What you fail to understand is what IOs offer.  IOs open up so many more build opportunities and variety.  IOs open up more varied choices from picking sets knowing that you can cover annoying holes or effects like egregious KB.  Crying that IOs messed things up is silly.  And you can play with out IOs with others that don't have IOs and you can have your vaunted team balance back, so your CC is more valuable, or your heals, or whatever.

This is not an either or, both statements can be true.  IOs can allow for more build variety and cover holes that annoy people while also messing things up.  Covering holes like KB is both quality of life as well a rather large rises in power vs certain enemy groups.  Alot of low level groups have problems with Council/5th Column knockbacks for example because people skimping on their defense sets have not gotten their mezz protection yet.  But KB for those groups is essentially just a lesser form of hold/sleep from another group.  However since you can get back up and the "hold" is short we get frustrated because our expectations are not properly aligned with the realistic reality of the situation.  We COULD use the tools at our disposal and bring break frees for crucial fights/situations but we don't because we are lazy and spoiled.

And keep in mind I tanked council/5th column on my regen brute coming up recently and I got ping ponged all over the place lol.  After the initial "well that sucked" I adjusted and LOS manuvered and corner pulled and utilized break frees and stuff alot more.  It was in my power to eliminate 75% of the problem without needing to rely on passive protection.  But at this power creeped stage of the game we have the expectation of just being able to basically turn our brains off and still win.

It is what it is and it's not going to change, I accept that, but I'm not about to retcon reality either.  IOs both opened the game up in alot of ways and messed the game up in alot of ways.  It's neither good nor evil, it's a massive mixed bag.

[Ralathar44]

6 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

Ok now about TW.  Let's not throw the baby our with the bathwater.  TW is not crazy OP, except on scrappers, so it does deserve a trim.  Fine, I'm already over it.  But the changes should be such that it doesn't harm Tanks and Brutes, for which TW is not OP.  I'd also advocate avoiding Energy Melee type nerfs that took a popular top performer and turned into an old shoe overnight.  So let's be careful to give it a trim (for scrappers) and not cut off an ear or the whole head. 

 

So what do you think needs to be nerfed after TW?

It should be noted that the wording they used in the original post was rework.  Not buff/nerf.  They noted it was overperforming so assumedly the rework would involve addressing that too.  I'd imagine their goal would be to reign in it's top end power level, have it useful for all ATs, and rework the momentum mechanic because a great deal of people hate playing the set because of the momentum mechanic.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Ralathar44

[oedipus_tex]

Wow 59 pages! I think that speaks highly to the enthusiasm of the community. Amazing that such an old game still captures so much energy. Thank you for continuing to keep it alive.

 

RE: Dominators. IMO the class needs another look. It's fun to play and most of my mains are Dominators. However the truth about Doms is that other than Sentinel it's the last one I'd bring on a Task Force I thought I could fail, other than perhaps some kind of buff Controller. They are a DPS class that can't DPS versus the main things you need good DPS for. They aren't terrible for sandbox play but other than a few extremely powerful builds are in a very awkward position. A good melee modifier doesn't make up for no access to armor and few ways to buff Damage bonuses. 

 

There are ways to make controls more relevant. Giving enemies toggle powers for example that you can detoggle with a mezz. I personally like that idea better than a resistance debuff attached to mezz. Just giving a few enemies Sonic Dispersion achieves something similar.  

[Wavicle]

53 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Wow 59 pages! I think that speaks highly to the enthusiasm of the community. Amazing that such an old game still captures so much energy. Thank you for continuing to keep it alive.

 

RE: Dominators. IMO the class needs another look. It's fun to play and most of my mains are Dominators. However the truth about Doms is that other than Sentinel it's the last one I'd bring on a Task Force I thought I could fail, other than perhaps some kind of buff Controller. They are a DPS class that can't DPS versus the main things you need good DPS for. They aren't terrible for sandbox play but other than a few extremely powerful builds are in a very awkward position. A good melee modifier doesn't make up for no access to armor and few ways to buff Damage bonuses. 

 

There are ways to make controls more relevant. Giving enemies toggle powers for example that you can detoggle with a mezz. I personally like that idea better than a resistance debuff attached to mezz. Just giving a few enemies Sonic Dispersion achieves something similar.  

People solo AVs on Dominators...I am not seeing the evidence supporting this claim that Dominators don’t do enough damage. Doms are monsters already.

[FUBARczar]

4 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

It should be noted that the wording they used in the original post was rework.  Not buff/nerf.  They noted it was overperforming so assumedly the rework would involve addressing that too.  I'd imagine their goal would be to reign in it's top end power level, have it useful for all ATs, and rework the momentum mechanic because a great deal of people hate playing the set because of the momentum mechanic.

yeah, it's sad, the momentum mechanic is what makes it unique, and thematically appropriate.  It's unclear but there does seem to be hints at its removal, once that happens TW becomes just a slightly different version of WM and BA.    Bye bye character, hello homogenous zone. 

 

Hmmm, maybe if we got enough people to whine about Water Blast, Street Justice, Staff, etc we can get those mechanics removed as well, since there are people who won't play those sets because of their mechanics.  Oh how about MMs, a lot of people won't play MMs because of their mechanics, so let's destroy...err, rework MMs too.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

People solo AVs on Dominators...I am not seeing the evidence supporting this claim that Dominators don’t do enough damage. Doms are monsters already.

just because a Dominator can solo an AV doesn't mean it should, or that it is even in the same league as other ATs who do the same feat in a fraction of the time. 

[oedipus_tex]

54 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

People solo AVs on Dominators...I am not seeing the evidence supporting this claim that Dominators don’t do enough damage. Doms are monsters already.

 

I feel like this may be true of a couple of assault sets, but IMO is not true of the archetype overall. Earth, Electric, Dark, Psi, and Radioactive Assault don't even have a Tier 3 damage scale ranged blast to work with. They fare very poorly in AV fights, except perhaps for Psi being able to debuff regen.

Edited October 4, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Wavicle]

40 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

I feel like this may be true of a couple of assault sets, but IMO is not true of the archetype overall. Earth, Electric, Dark, Psi, and Radioactive Assault don't even have a Tier 3 damage scale ranged blast to work with. They fare very poorly in AV fights, except perhaps for Psi being able to debuff regen.

Sniper attacks now take the place of the third blast. Earth got buffed to account for it's lack of a snipe.

[CaptainLupis]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

yeah, it's sad, the momentum mechanic is what makes it unique, and thematically appropriate.  It's unclear but there does seem to be hints at its removal, once that happens TW becomes just a slightly different version of WM and BA.    Bye bye character, hello homogenous zone. 

 

I could be wrong, but I doubt it will be removed. I expect the duration of momentum will be increased to make it more usable at low level when you don't have many attacks or much recharge and the damage dropped a bit to compensate.

[Wavicle]

What is the explanation of so many people having this fatalistic lack of faith in the HC devs, who have repeatedly demonstrated their competence, wisdom, and love of the game?
 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Wavicle

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Sniper attacks now take the place of the third blast. Earth got buffed to account for it's lack of a snipe.

 

So do you feel a ranged Dominator attack chain that incorporates a snipe is hitting with the same strength as Stalker, Blaster, Brute, etc attacks? I would expect, on balance, that a Blaster would hit harder than the Dominator. 

 

With a set like Dark Assault you've got a snipe and then what essentially consists of a T1 blast and 2 T2s. The developers did normalize the damage to animation time. But despite a decent damage modifier, there are no crits, no containment, no rage, no defiance, few debuffs (except Sleet, see my note above about particular builds), mostly no Build Up. The snipe does have a nice crack to it and it helps quite a bit. But it is also true that your best DPS is in your melee attacks which you are mostly pushed out of using for safety reasons. The issue for Dominators, more than their damage scales, has always been the circumstances where they are able to unleash them. It's a hefty albatross. 

I think sometimes people paint too rosy a picture of Dominator survivability. Two hits from an AV can drop them and they have more to lose than most classes, because dropped Domination is very punishing.