Master of Task Forces

[Ukase]

This has probably been suggested before - but ...if you get 40 merits for doing Apex or Tin Mage, why don't we get extra merits for getting Master? There's at least a few folks who don't care about badges (I know, crazy, right?) and it would be nice to have something to motivate them to accept the challenge. 

Maybe 10 to 20% more. 

[MTeague]

That opens a big 55 gallon drum of worms. 

 

If you do a TF at -1 difficulty, should your merits be reduced by 10-20 because of it, or increased by 10-20 if you fight at +4?

What about regular story arcs?

What about the Ouroborous challenges, like "can't use inspirations", or "No temp powers"?

What about a player with nothing but SO's vs one decked out in IO sets and with incarnates slotted?

Should you lose 20 merits if you're twinked out the wazoo because the challenge is removed?

 

In all situation you can argue whether that's easier or harder, and whether it really presents the same kind of challenge.

Do you want merit rewards changed there as well?

 

I'd say don't touch it, leave it all exactly as is.  

[Super Atom]

10 minutes ago, MTeague said:

That opens a big 55 gallon drum of worms. 

 

If you do a TF at -1 difficulty, should your merits be reduced by 10-20 because of it, or increased by 10-20 if you fight at +4?

What about regular story arcs?

What about the Ouroborous challenges, like "can't use inspirations", or "No temp powers"?

What about a player with nothing but SO's vs one decked out in IO sets and with incarnates slotted?

Should you lose 20 merits if you're twinked out the wazoo because the challenge is removed?

 

In all situation you can argue whether that's easier or harder, and whether it really presents the same kind of challenge.

Do you want merit rewards changed there as well?

 

I'd say don't touch it, leave it all exactly as is.  

He didn't suggest any of that. He just said if you complete the requirements for master you just get a small addition of merits. It's a pretty simple and straight forward suggestion

 

At your speed, should you even earn master outside of +4/x8? questions nobody has ever cared to ask.

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Super Atom said:

He didn't suggest any of that. He just said if you complete the requirements for master you just get a small addition of merits. It's a pretty simple and straight forward suggestion

 

At your speed, should you even earn master outside of +4/x8? questions nobody has ever cared to ask.

He specifically said 

3 hours ago, Ukase said:

and it would be nice to have something to motivate them to accept the challenge. 

Maybe 10 to 20% more. 

bolding mine for emphasis.

That's why I offered other examples of greater or lesser challenge, all with an identical reward.

If changing one reward based on "the challenge", why not the others.

[Super Atom]

3 minutes ago, MTeague said:

He specifically said 

bolding mine for emphasis.

That's why I offered other examples of greater or lesser challenge, all with an identical reward.

If changing one reward based on "the challenge", why not the others.

because at this point, it's pretty common place that the current rewards are what they are. If you lowered them just because some people didn't enjoy +4 there would be a lot of outrage. Genuinely, I'd be for such a change but you shouldn't push it on people only give motivation to further the challenge with the pre-set increases beyond the actual difficulty scale.

 

So your example of the Oro challenges would also be cool.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Super Atom

[MTeague]

14 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

because at this point, it's pretty common place that the current rewards are what they are. If you lowered them just because some people didn't enjoy +4 there would be a lot of outrage. Genuinely, I'd be for such a change but you shouldn't push it on people only give motivation to further the challenge with the pre-set increases beyond the actual difficulty scale.

 

So your example of the Oro challenges would also be cool.

I'm not for changing anything. 

I listed these as reasons why I don't think any changes should be made at all, because I think even the proposed change (more merits for a Master Of run) opens the door to exactly this.

 

EDIT:  am I being paranoid?  very possibly.  That's still my stance.

Edited September 21, 2020 by MTeague

[Super Atom]

6 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I'm not for changing anything. 

I listed these as reasons why I don't think any changes should be made at all, because I think even the proposed change (more merits for a Master Of run) opens the door to exactly this.

I think that's general fear mongering for a problem that doesn't exist. If i could, that is a change i would make because i play exclusively on +4/x8. However, even being someone who does so, I wouldn't ever want to force or take away from someone who doesn't want to play that difficulty. I also believe there is a much higher player count who doesn't want/do +4 then there is who do. If this suggestion turns into what you said, I could see you saying dismissing it but that still isn't what he suggested. He only suggested adding extra Merits for Master Of challenge, not decreasing any rewards. That was you and only you.

 

Basically what im saying is, You're judging his suggestion as a "no" for a change nobody was asking to be made.

 

What are your thoughts on increasing merit rewards for Master of challenge modes and nothing else / no decreases anywhere else?

Edited September 21, 2020 by Super Atom

[MTeague]

3 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

He only suggested adding extra Merits for Master Of challenge, not decreasing any rewards. That was you and only you.

Acknowledged.  And fair point.  But I do think there would very rapidly be a perception that "not getting the extra reward" is in fact a "reduction" for anyone else.

Perhaps I'm wrong. But I've played a lot of games over the last 30-odd years, and I've seen an awful lot of min/max obsession that way.

[Super Atom]

2 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Acknowledged.  And fair point.  But I do think there would very rapidly be a perception that "not getting the extra reward" is in fact a "reduction" for anyone else.

Perhaps I'm wrong. But I've played a lot of games over the last 30-odd years, and I've seen an awful lot of min/max obsession that way.

Yeah, it might have the side effect of creating another TF recruitment headache like speed runs. Still, as long as its not like 30 extra merits and instead something minor like 5 it shouldn't be too bad.

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

That opens a big 55 gallon drum of worms. 

 

If you do a TF at -1 difficulty, should your merits be reduced by 10-20 because of it, or increased by 10-20 if you fight at +4?

What about regular story arcs?

What about the Ouroborous challenges, like "can't use inspirations", or "No temp powers"?

What about a player with nothing but SO's vs one decked out in IO sets and with incarnates slotted?

Should you lose 20 merits if you're twinked out the wazoo because the challenge is removed?

 

In all situation you can argue whether that's easier or harder, and whether it really presents the same kind of challenge.

Do you want merit rewards changed there as well?

 

I'd say don't touch it, leave it all exactly as is.  

All valid points, that candidly, I hadn't considered. It would be a mess. That's probably why it doesn't work the way I suggested. 

I'd actually be okay with the master of tfs being +4/8 myself. I probably would struggle to get my build just right in certain tfs, but that would certainly make things more challenging. 

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Ukase said:

I'd actually be okay with the master of tfs being +4/8 myself. I probably would struggle to get my build just right in certain tfs, but that would certainly make things more challenging. 

They shouldn't be, It'd been too long and the badge is too established imo

 

Maybe when they first came out i could see that being a decision that should have been made.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Super Atom

[Ukase]

I suppose changing a Master's badge requirements at this point would get more than a few folks in a bit of a tizzy, and rightly so. 

It just seemed to me that if you get a master run - as opposed to another group that didn't - you deserved a few more merits. But, I hadn't thought about the ouro arc challenges for badges, master runs without inspirations, and runs at +4/8, etc. 

I guess ultimately, the badge IS the little bit extra. 

[Super Atom]

That is true, the badge is the extra. I don't see the harm in adding reward for those challenges tho outside of a badge

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I guess ultimately, the badge IS the little bit extra. 

That's my view point.  No harm in having made the suggestion though. This IS a forum dedicated to that.

 

1 hour ago, Super Atom said:

That is true, the badge is the extra. I don't see the harm in adding reward for those challenges tho outside of a badge

And it's entirely possible the devs may agree with you. I'm not the final arbiter. My goal was just make sure the devs consider a counterpoint. If they do do a boost, but make it clear it's only for this, and there's other lines they don't want to cross, a "this far but no farther", they have every right to do so.  "Sorry MTeague, you're just paranoid" is an entirely valid stance for them to take, too.

[Super Atom]

7 minutes ago, MTeague said:

That's my view point.  No harm in having made the suggestion though. This IS a forum dedicated to that.

 

And it's entirely possible the devs may agree with you. I'm not the final arbiter. My goal was just make sure the devs consider a counterpoint. If they do do a boost, but make it clear it's only for this, and there's other lines they don't want to cross, a "this far but no farther", they have every right to do so.  "Sorry MTeague, you're just paranoid" is an entirely valid stance for them to take, too.

I wasn't trying to come at you or anything, I just wanted you to see the suggestion for the suggestion not any scenarios that haven't happened or weren't mentioned is all. Cause you can pretty much run wild with what if's about most changes and it can muddy things up.

[Riverdusk]

I've been suggesting extra merits for adding the "ouro challenges" for a long time now.  So, yes personally I would like to see that.   I'd vote for that even more so than for the master challenges.  You already see people running master runs all the time so I'm not sure there really is a need for extra incentive there, whereas you almost never hear of people running Ouro challenges.

[Greycat]

My main concern with doing something like this is that it would push people to *just* do, or at least strongly perfer, Master runs.

 

Personally, I tend *not* to like MO* runs, since for me they tend to add stress to what should be fun - one person dies (depending on the master requirements,) the whole team is screwed out of it, even if it's not something that person could have helped (say, ambush spawns in *right behind* someone and focuses them down before they notice.) I don't begrudge the people running them, they're just not something I like.

[macskull]

17 minutes ago, Greycat said:

My main concern with doing something like this is that it would push people to *just* do, or at least strongly perfer, Master runs.

I am intentionally not addressing the second part of your post because like you said, that's you, but I'll at least look at this. In short... so what? Unless they're doing it for the first time and really want the badge, they still get the normal merit rewards even if they don't complete the challenge. At this point it's just gambling on getting extra merit rewards for the extra risk. Same with the Ouro flashback limitations - those should be worth more merits as well. It's not like if you failed the challenge you'd get no rewards so you're not really losing anything.

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

I am intentionally not addressing the second part of your post because like you said, that's you, but I'll at least look at this. In short... so what? Unless they're doing it for the first time and really want the badge, they still get the normal merit rewards even if they don't complete the challenge. At this point it's just gambling on getting extra merit rewards for the extra risk. Same with the Ouro flashback limitations - those should be worth more merits as well. It's not like if you failed the challenge you'd get no rewards so you're not really losing anything.

Well, the second part kind of is related to the first. 🙂 If I'm saying it, how many people aren't and would be skipping even more TFs? (Not to mention people reacting ... *poorly* to a failed run.)

 

Granted, probably overstressing on it. It's more just putting that POV out there.

[macskull]

I mean, sure, but the option is still there to form your own team to run it the regular way if you're so inclined. The powergaming crowd is going to be looking at merits per time and if doing it with "Master of" rules isn't worth the extra time for the merits, they'll still be running it the regular ol' way too.

[srmalloy]

11 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

I've been suggesting extra merits for adding the "ouro challenges" for a long time now.  So, yes personally I would like to see that.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that it's all well and good to suggest adding extra merits for the extra challenges, but what are these bonuses going to be? Flat number of merits based on the challenge, so you'd get the same number of extra merits for running Miss Liberty at +4/x8 as you would running Penelope Yin at the same setting? A flat number of merits based on the challenge, but different for eacyTF/SF? A multiplier to the base merit reward? Separate multipliers by category of challenge (i.e., a multiplier for no deaths, and a separate multiplier for level/team size), and how should the challenges be grouped into categories? And then the bottom line -- who do you expect to take away from the other things they're doing for the game to work on all of this?

[macskull]

I'd think a percentage-based value would be the best answer.

[MunkiLord]

8 hours ago, srmalloy said:

And then the bottom line -- who do you expect to take away from the other things they're doing for the game to work on all of this?

What kind of question is that? That's 100% a developer/admin problem to solve if a suggestion was greenlit and went into development. 

[MunkiLord]

22 hours ago, Ukase said:

I suppose changing a Master's badge requirements at this point would get more than a few folks in a bit of a tizzy, and rightly so. 

It just seemed to me that if you get a master run - as opposed to another group that didn't - you deserved a few more merits. But, I hadn't thought about the ouro arc challenges for badges, master runs without inspirations, and runs at +4/8, etc. 

I guess ultimately, the badge IS the little bit extra. 

Perhaps add some more badges and just add a +1/2/3/4 to the end?

[Riverdusk]

7 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

What kind of question is that? That's 100% a developer/admin problem to solve if a suggestion was greenlit and went into development. 

Yep, that question could be asked of literally every suggestion made on this board so I did find that objection a bit...odd.  That is a cost/benefit analysis that ends up being 100% a matter of opinion as to whether or not any suggestion made is "worth it".  Everyone would have a different answer depending on their subjective analysis of the "benefit".  Most of the time we also have no idea of the "cost" side of the equation either beyond a vague idea as most of us aren't programmers or familiar with the coding it'd take.  For my own personal take on it I'd say it'd be worth it if it is an easy or fairly easy change, but it'd fall way down on the priority list beyond that.   But it is an idea I throw out there because I think it'd be nice to see.

 

Personally I'm also confused as to why people keep mixing in difficulty levels to this.  Doing something at +4/8 already provides a better reward compared to +0/x1 as in better influence/xp.  My issue is the extra "challenges" such as "buffed enemies", "no inspirations", etc.  that right now give 0 extra reward (beyond sometimes a one time badge).

 

Just as an off the cuff idea I was thinking something like a 5% merit bonus per "challenge" up to a max of 4 (so max 20%).  Round down so that you avoid giving an outsized bonus to the 1-4 merit activities (they just wouldn't get any bonus).  That means "master runs" would give a 10% merit bonus if you just went with the minimum requirements as they stand now.  Once again I have no idea how that would be to program though, so maybe there are easier ways to do something similar.

 

Honestly you could give a lot more bonus than that and it isn't like it is going to make running TF/Ouro arcs competitive with farming or marketeering for rewards, but I do think it'd be cool to see a bit of extra reward for a bit of extra challenge for these "challenges".