Thoughts on the evolution of the Rogue Isles

[BZRKR]

Hmmm.

So what if:

- Ms Liberty goes rogue and fortifies the Longbow base in Nerva as a center of operations. Or even moves into Warburg. And then she becomes the focus of new content (Hero side Task Force and Villain side Story Arc?)  that helps to evolve the Rogue Isles.

- Dominatrix becomes the new Ms Liberty (undercover or as the "next with the name") as a vigilante and sets up shop somewhere in Downside in Atlas to be a trainer and to provide info about alignment and tip missions in a kind of "You can be a good guy without being so much of a good guy" way.

- Back Alley Brawler moves into Atlas plaza to welcome newly made heroes.

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, BZRKR said:

Hmmm.

So what if:

- Ms Liberty goes rogue and fortifies the Longbow base in Nerva as a center of operations. Or even moves into Warburg. And then she becomes the focus of new content (Hero side Task Force and Villain side Story Arc?)  that helps to evolve the Rogue Isles.

- Dominatrix becomes the new Ms Liberty (undercover or as the "next with the name") as a vigilante and sets up shop somewhere in Downside in Atlas to be a trainer and to provide info about alignment and tip missions in a kind of "You can be a good guy without being so much of a good guy" way.

- Back Alley Brawler moves into Atlas plaza to welcome newly made heroes.

You could finesse that with actually retiring BAB and giving Marauder the job, because that's where it looked like it was going with both versions of White.

 

I'd like to see a political dimension to the world and have BAB run for mayor!

 

Possibly Dominatrix would call herself simply "Liberty"?

Edited November 20, 2020 by Darmian

[CrudeVileTerror]

I'm 90 to 97.5% sure that Dominatrix has a new gimp army.

Maybe 99.775% sure, come to think of it . . . 

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

I'm 90 to 97.5% sure that Dominatrix has a new gimp army.

Maybe 99.775% sure, come to think of it . . . 

You are probably right...but I was under the impression that the ones I ran into when facing her were remnants of what she brought with her from Praetoria. I'll have to run that arc again to get a better grasp of that.

[CrudeVileTerror]

Oh.   I meant -after- that.

Because . . . well . . . personal first-hand experience tells me so.

[Darmian]

Earlier I had posted that Bloody Bay and Warburg be either removed from PVP or at least "doubled", giving a PVE and PVP version.  Since (a) they're ghost towns outside badgers and a few people collecting shards/nukes.  I've been back since 2019 and literally met ONE person in either of those two places when I was there. They local messaged me to see was I hostile.  I said no, them neither and we went on our way collecting badges.

 

The game being what it is, and the Rogue Isles having a lot less zones than Paragon, they really should leverage these into being PVE zones for the Rogue Isles.  But, I hear my PVP players complaining!  However, I propose THIS: Echo DA becomes PVP.  Hunting each other through the fog while avoiding the stuff that is now definitely your level.  And of course Adamastor.  Hell, I'd convert the Echo Crash Site into PVP as well for the hell of it.

[Take One]

3 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Echo DA becomes PVP

 

If it's that simple, why not create pvp versions of all or many more maps? I don't even know if Villains can get to Echo:DA. But even so, wouldn't it be "easier" to create PVE versions of Bloody Bay and Warburg, and then let people choose whether to enter the pvp or pve version of the maps when going there?

[Darmian]

2 minutes ago, Take One said:

 

If it's that simple, why not create pvp versions of all or many more maps? I don't even know if Villains can get to Echo:DA. But even so, wouldn't it be "easier" to create PVE versions of Bloody Bay and Warburg, and then let people choose whether to enter the pvp or pve version of the maps when going there?

Well yes 🙂  I agree.  I'm just spitballing here to a certain extent.  However, chatting to a few PVPers about the DA thing had them intrigued by, their word, its possible "crunchiness", concerning the fog and tactics and so on.  

I mean the game itself generates doubles of zones if a particular one hits a population cap cf KR which has its cap low so as to bypass the Paladin bug.

[Alchemystic]

One of the ideas I had a while back was to repurpose Striga Isle into a villain zone, and moving all contacts from the map to Boomtown, and the doors to their missions would be replaced with a helicopter (or if suitable, moved to locations in Boomtown).

 

I know Striga Isles isn't in the Rogue Isles, but it's technically not in Paragon City either, and I feel as though it would make sense for Arachnos to make a move on it and secure it for villains properly.

 

Then, the narrative of the relationship between the 5th Column, Council, and UPA can be further explored by a suite of new contacts with interesting backstories and story arcs, as well as showcasing what the Banished Pantheon are doing after their defeat in Dark Astoria.

 

In order to get there, you can take a black helicopter to a newly created Arachnos seabase off the coast of the islands, where villains will be briefed on the events taking place in the island. You can also access the zone via submarines, including the one in Paragon (Though now only available to Rogues and Vigilantes).

 

There will be new exploration and history badges created to narrate the more recent events surrounding Striga Isle and its inhabitants. Other than that, not much of the map or the enemy activity would have changed.

 

For heroes, they will still be able to access an Echo version of Striga Isle wih all the old badges still available to them. To make up for the fact they are losing direct access to the 'Mortician' day job, a new cemetery will be created nearby the tunnel connecting Perez and Galaxy City, mourning those lost in the Shivan attack.

 

The mission arcs and task forces that were once available in Striga Isle will still be accessible, just from Boomtown, so not much there would have changed besides location.

 

All in all, I think this accomplishes a great many things;

• Revamps a Hazard Zone, which was the original plan of Paragon Studios.
• Creates a new villain zone, since redside is lacking.
• Integrates existing narratives from story arcs into the world.
• Finally allows villains to explore relations with 5th Column and Council.
• Villains can also experience the UPA for the first time.
• Moves the hero side Council narrative to Boomtown, where it is currently being staged.
• Doesn't require much in the way of new environmental assets/map designing.
• More space for newly created contacts/mission arcs.
• Added bonus of a memorial for Galaxy City.

 

Other possibilities;

• Making it a level 40-50 zone, and introducing a Warrior revamp to match this
• UPA spawns added to the map
• Zone event; 5th Column vs Council
• Room for Nictus themed content
• More direct conflict with heroes

Edited March 21, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, Tyrannical said:

To make up for the fact they are losing direct access to the 'Mortician' day job, a new cemetery will be created nearby the tunnel connecting Perez and Galaxy City, mourning those lost in the Shivan attack.

I like a new cemetery however Mortician is available in Echo DA still, though obviously doesn't get as much traffic as Striga.

[Darmian]

1 hour ago, Tyrannical said:

One of the ideas I had a while back was to repurpose Striga Isle into a villain zone, and moving all contacts from the map to Boomtown, and the doors to their missions would be replaced with a helicopter (or if suitable, moved to locations in Boomtown).

 

I know Striga Isles isn't in the Rogue Isles, but it's technically not in Paragon City either, and I feel as though it would make sense for Arachnos to make a move on it and secure it for villains properly.

 

Then, the narrative of the relationship between the 5th Column, Council, and UPA can be further explored by a suite of new contacts with interesting backstories and story arcs, as well as showcasing what the Banished Pantheon are doing after their defeat in Dark Astoria.

 

In order to get there, you can take a black helicopter to a newly created Arachnos seabase off the coast of the islands, where villains will be briefed on the events taking place in the island. You can also access the zone via submarines, including the one in Paragon (Though now only available to Rogues and Vigilantes).

 

There will be new exploration and history badges created to narrate the more recent events surrounding Striga Isle and its inhabitants. Other than that, not much of the map or the enemy activity would have changed.

 

For heroes, they will still be able to access an Echo version of Striga Isle wih all the old badges still available to them. To make up for the fact they are losing direct access to the 'Mortician' day job, a new cemetery will be created nearby the tunnel connecting Perez and Galaxy City, mourning those lost in the Shivan attack.

 

The mission arcs and task forces that were once available in Striga Isle will still be accessible, just from Boomtown, so not much there would have changed besides location.

 

All in all, I think this accomplishes a great many things;

• Revamps a Hazard Zone, which was the original plan of Paragon Studios.
• Creates a new villain zone, since redside is lacking.
• Integrates existing narratives from story arcs into the world.
• Finally allows villains to explore relations with 5th Column and Council.
• Villains can also experience the UPA for the first time.
• Moves the hero side Council narrative to Boomtown, where it is currently being staged.
• Doesn't require much in the way of new environmental assets/map designing.
• More space for newly created contacts/mission arcs.
• Added bonus of a memorial for Galaxy City.

 

Other possibilities;

• Making it a level 40-50 zone, and introducing a Warrior revamp to match this
• UPA spawns added to the map
• Zone event; 5th Column vs Council
• Room for Nictus themed content
• More direct conflict with heroes

Yes please. 

 

All in time for the the 2024 anniversary of the Glorious Revolution. Viva Recluse!

[MTeague]

I contradict myself a lot in what I want out of the game.

I very much enjoy Redside. Much more than Blueside. 

But I loathe what they did with Recluse, making him an untouchable king of the hill.

 

Yes, in one story arc, you can beat up recluse, and bring his today-self a dented helmet that you took from his defeated-future-self.

Woo woo.

At the end of that arc, NOTHING CHANGES. 

Arachnos remains in complete control of the isles.

There are no and have never been any rival factions that remotely threaten them on the isles.

 

I would have far preferred the Rogue isles if it had been divided up between 5-6 factions, of which Arachnos was only one, and if the redside quests had you picking a faction and coming to rule them and gradually dominate the rest. Or just playing all sides against each other and profitting all the way to the bank, for those villains who can't be bothered with world domination because they'd rather hedonistically enjoy wealth instead of herd cats all day.

 

This is never going to happen of course.  Not now. But it's what I always thought the Rogue Isles should be.

[Doc_Scorpion]

5 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

The mission arcs and task forces that were once available in Striga Isle will still be accessible, just from Boomtown, so not much there would have changed besides location.

0.o  Yeah, changing absolutely everything means not much changes beside location.  No offense, but have you even done the Striga arcs?  They'd need extensive re-writing to fit Baumton - which is (or was) a freakin' suburb.

That being said:

Redside is a ghost town, and taking away cool arcs from Blueside in order to create more empty Redside zones?

Hard no. 

[Alchemystic]

14 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

0.o  Yeah, changing absolutely everything means not much changes beside location.  No offense, but have you even done the Striga arcs?  They'd need extensive re-writing to fit Baumton - which is (or was) a freakin' suburb.

That being said:

Redside is a ghost town, and taking away cool arcs from Blueside in order to create more empty Redside zones?

Hard no. 

 

The arcs wouldn't be affected. Any mission that takes place in Striga will still take place in Striga, the access point for missions will just change (often to a helicopter that will take you to Striga, or if it's a random base, Boomtown doors work). So, nothing is "taken away".

 

I'll agree that there will be a little rewriting needed, likely to make sure that dialogue indicates that the contact is in Boomtown instead of Striga, but as for the events of the missions, nothing should need amendment.

 

Revamping the Hazard Zones was always the plan, moving forward sometimes means closing a chapter on something, and the new content introduced that's centred around Striga is a strong starting point for something like this.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 minute ago, Tyrannical said:

The arcs wouldn't be affected.

How is moving a contact whose background is intimately tied to Striga "not affecting" anything?  (Not to mention repeatedly leaving the zone to get contacts or new missions until they give you their cell number.)  As for nothing needing amendment...  You don't think the arc will have to be re-written to explain why Stephanie is defending Striga - while standing in Boomtown?

I ask again, and again no offense intended, if you haven't done the Striga arcs - have you at least read the HC wiki descriptions of the arcs?  It's a zone arc, akin to The Hollows or Faultline, it's all but impossible to take the contacts out of their context without significant re-writing.
 

 

2 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Any mission that takes place in Striga will still take place in Striga, the access point for missions will just change, so nothing is "taken away".

Heroes can't enter villain zones.  You'll have to move this missions too if Striga become a villain zone as you propose.
 

 

6 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Revamping the Hazard Zones was always the plan

True.  And utterly irrelevant because you aren't proposing revamping a zone along the lines of what was done with Faultline, the Rikti Crash Site/Rikti War Zone, or The Hollows.  You're proposing the deletion of zone (from the point of view of the Hero).

 

[Alchemystic]

5 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

How is moving a contact whose background is intimately tied to Striga "not affecting" anything?  (Not to mention repeatedly leaving the zone to get contacts or new missions until they give you their cell number.)  As for nothing needing amendment...  You don't think the arc will have to be re-written to explain why Stephanie is defending Striga - while standing in Boomtown?

 

NPCs get displaced.

 

Look at Dark Astoria, or Galaxy City, or even as far back as the Rikti Crash Site.

 

That's how stories progress. Things change, events unfold, nothing remains exactly the same. Stephanie can disappear to Striga for a while and only be reached by phone, which happens to a few NPCs already when they introduced player instancing.

 

At least I'm proposing to make alterations to these stories instead of locking them behind orouboros or removing them completely. I didn't want to do them a disservice like that.

 

5 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Heroes can't enter villain zones.  You'll have to move this missions too if Striga become a villain zone as you propose.
 

 

Heroes also can't enter the Rogue Isles, but plenty of missions take place there, often in instanced outdoor maps. So I really don't see how this is a problem?

 

This also circles back to the point I made about moving mission doors to helicopters or other suitable transport. Vehicles and portals make for an easy narrative reason for why you go from once place to another, and it can feasibly be applied here.

 

5 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

True.  And utterly irrelevant because you aren't proposing revamping a zone along the lines of what was done with Faultline, the Rikti Crash Site/Rikti War Zone, or The Hollows.  You're proposing the deletion of zone (from the point of view of the Hero).

 

I never said that I was going to revamp it strictly in the same way as Faultline or The Hollows now did I?

 

And besides, Dark Astoria and the RWZ aren't even 'Hazard Zones' anymore, their maps have been entirely repurposed, which is what I'm proposing.

 

Also, the zone wont be deleted from a hero perspective, I already stated that it will exist as an Echo map. The content will move, but it will still exist, so let's not pretend this is Galaxy City 2.0.

 

Either way, this is a thread about the evolution of the game, so I don't see what you have to gain here by being obstructive. Your feedback's been noted but I don't see anything that I can really take as constructive criticism.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Coyotedancer]

15 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

0.o  Yeah, changing absolutely everything means not much changes beside location.  No offense, but have you even done the Striga arcs?  They'd need extensive re-writing to fit Baumton - which is (or was) a freakin' suburb.

That being said:

Redside is a ghost town, and taking away cool arcs from Blueside in order to create more empty Redside zones?

Hard no. 

 

I have to agree... and not just because I'm actually really fond of a lot of what's in Striga. One of my favorite missions is tied specifically to going and clearing out a base full of vampires under a mountain named for them. That's a lot more fun to me than just clearing out some generic base under one of the hero side's same-same zones full of trash fires and improbable ruins. <_<

 

Striga and its arcs have too definite a sense of PLACE to just uproot everything and toss it into one of the underused Paragon zones, I think. 

[Darmian]

But the repurposing of Bloody Bay and Warburg as full Rogue Isles zones is viable?

[Alchemystic]

2 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

I have to agree... and not just because I'm actually really fond of a lot of what's in Striga. One of my favorite missions is tied specifically to going and clearing out a base full of vampires under a mountain named for them. That's a lot more fun to me than just clearing out some generic base under one of the hero side's same-same zones full of trash fires and improbable ruins. <_<

 

Striga and its arcs have too definite a sense of PLACE to just uproot everything and toss it into one of the underused Paragon zones, I think. 

 

Again, nothing about the missions would have changed save for the entry point and one or two lines of dialogue.

[TemporalVileTerror]

It may have been a while, but I think the writing for the Peebles-and-company arcs are all VERY entwined with the notion of those characters actually -living- on Striga.  It's their home.  Moving them off of Striga is tantamount to displacing them as refugees, which would require massive rewrites of their mission narratives to justify.

 

I do like the idea of Villains gaining access to Striga, though.  If we're making an Echo of Striga for heroes anyway, why not do this the other way around and make an "Alternate Reality" version of Striga for Villains to play in, wihle maintaining the existing Striga exactly as-is?

[MTeague]

14 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

It may have been a while, but I think the writing for the Peebles-and-company arcs are all VERY entwined with the notion of those characters actually -living- on Striga.  It's their home.  Moving them off of Striga is tantamount to displacing them as refugees, which would require massive rewrites of their mission narratives to justify.

 

I do like the idea of Villains gaining access to Striga, though.  If we're making an Echo of Striga for heroes anyway, why not do this the other way around and make an "Alternate Reality" version of Striga for Villains to play in, wihle maintaining the existing Striga exactly as-is?

 

I would see this as a baby-step towards getting ALL alignments in the same zone all the time, with just different contacts for each alignment.

And I could count that as a good thing. 

 

(if I'm reading @TemporalVileTerror right, it wouldn't actually be the same zone...., there would just be a "BlueStriga" and a "RedStriga", same geography, same mobs, same NPC's, but diifferent contacts. But feels like a thing that could be a proof-of-concept progression towards merging zones.  Maybe we could have a "RedPortOakes" and a "BluePortOakes" zone as well, where heroes do some pushback against villain factions there, etc)

Edited March 22, 2021 by MTeague

[Coyotedancer]

3 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

 

Again, nothing about the missions would have changed save for the entry point and one or two lines of dialogue.

 

Except NOT flying/running/whatever over to that big mountain to clear it out. Or sneaking into that actual. huge Council base to take out its communications center. Or having a mission to clear out the BP from a crypt that actually goes to a crypt door in the cemetery. Or having Peeb standing right next to the pub she supposedly frequents, where she lost her ring. Or.... You get the idea. 

 

So, no. I can;t get behind your idea and would argue very strongly against it if it came to it. You can have Warberg or Bloody Bay. Leave Striga alone.

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

It may have been a while, but I think the writing for the Peebles-and-company arcs are all VERY entwined with the notion of those characters actually -living- on Striga.  It's their home.  Moving them off of Striga is tantamount to displacing them as refugees, which would require massive rewrites of their mission narratives to justify.

*nods*  Precisely.  And even making an Echo: zone doesn't help much as it pulls the zone arcs out of the normal flow of mainstream gameplay.  It disconnects it from the larger story of the City.  It "changes the tense" if you will. 

And having villains take over Striga would be a major change to the City's storyline overall...  Close enough to Galaxy City 2.0 as to make no nevermind.  Not something that can be easily accounted for and something that can't simply "happen".

 

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

I would see this as a baby-step towards getting ALL alignments in the same zone all the time, with just different contacts for each alignment.

And I could count that as a good thing. 

Does game tech even allow for a "common but not co-op" PVE zone?  (I'm of the mind that full strength co-op zones need to be very carefully justified in story/lore terms.)  Not saying shouldn't do this, just getting a gauge as to how big the task might be. 

[Alchemystic]

1 hour ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

It may have been a while, but I think the writing for the Peebles-and-company arcs are all VERY entwined with the notion of those characters actually -living- on Striga.  It's their home.  Moving them off of Striga is tantamount to displacing them as refugees, which would require massive rewrites of their mission narratives to justify.

 

People forget this used to happen all the time back in the later years of the live game.

 

The destruction of Galaxy City, the death of Statesman, even the revamp of Praetorian content all meant that different contacts and mission arcs had to be adjusted to compensate for the story as it progressed.

 

What I'm proposing is no different. Striga Isle is the focus of a new storyline, one which could be explored further.

 

37 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Except NOT flying/running/whatever over to that big mountain to clear it out. Or sneaking into that actual. huge Council base to take out its communications center. Or having a mission to clear out the BP from a crypt that actually goes to a crypt door in the cemetery. Or having Peeb standing right next to the pub she supposedly frequents, where she lost her ring. Or.... You get the idea. 

 

Who said this content had to go away? I certainly didn't.

 

In fact, I said that Striga Isle would mostly remain in tact. These little aspects of Striga Isle would remain as they did before, only now it's from a new perspective.

 

19 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

And having villains take over Striga would be a major change to the City's storyline overall...  Close enough to Galaxy City 2.0 as to make no nevermind.  Not something that can be easily accounted for and something that can't simply "happen".

 

Well that's why most of us are here, we're pitching ideas to evolve the game.

 

If you want to experience a version of City of Heroes that exists in a constant standstill, I'd recommend trying Rebirth.

 

Otherwise, feel free to put forward constructive ideas, that's what the thread's for after all.

[TemporalVileTerror]

And the destruction of Galaxy City was -not- well-received in the slightest, from what I recall.  Considered one of the worst moves prior to Sunset, even.  I don't think we should be looking to it as an exemplar of what could be, but rather as a warning of what not to do.

 

I'll have to double-check, but I believe First Ward has alignment-specific missions which force players to dissolve their co-op teams if there are members on that team who are the wrong alignment.

So, if I'm remembering correctly, the tech is already in place for it . . . sorta-kinda.

 

The "tense" of this game's narrative all over the place, and really has been since the first Invasion Event took place with the forces of Rularuu.  Not to mention the bizarre interplay of player-characters being the primary protagonists on the same storylines creating a ludonarrative dissonance the likes of which could rip a hole through space-time.  (Which is my personal head-canon explanation for Ouroboros.)

Flexible temporal-narrative structures will probably yield a stronger return of investment on keeping the writing pithy and player-affirming.  But someone could write a doctoral thesis on that subject before addressing all the salient points and how they interact with one another.