Focused Feedback: Blaster Secondary Revamp

[CaptainLupis]

24 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Unless you're exemplaring down... as I mentioned both here and in the thread on Enhancement changes. Exemplaring below 32 starts the inevitable decay of your enhancement performance until two even level SO's net about a DO's worth of effect on a PosiTF. Even 6 slotting for Range (with more than half of it wasted by diminishing returns) won't get you to 80' if you're exemplared.

 

If this is the tact you're taking, may I suggest removing SOME of the enhancement types from the Exemplar scaling... scaling down Acc, Damage and the like makes sense... but Range is SO niche that anyone using it is almost certainly doing so to address a specific issue in their build to the detriment of the "more useful enhancements" and not being able to slot full sets into their powers. Having that fail (when it worked when you actually WERE level 15 using level 15 SO's) just because you're exemplaring removes a lot of the incentive to exemplar at all... why help that level 15 when you can run a level 35 mission without your range workaround being wrecked by the exemplar mechanics?

 

So there's my counter proposal if this is your hard line... remove RANGE (and perhaps some of the other edge-case enhancements like Interrupt Time) from the Exemplar scaling formulas.

Well considering SOs are available from level 2 now is there really any point in having enhancements scale down when exemping at all any more?

[Jacke]

10 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

Well considering SOs are available from level 2 now is there really any point in having enhancements scale down when exemping at all any more?

That's an excellent point.

 

But it's a change and it'll have to be reviewed.  I think this is something that needs to be considered, by @Captain Powerhouse and others.  Probably in an initial pass on addressing enhancements after there some experience and stats from i27p1.

[Pzn]

38 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

Well considering SOs are available from level 2 now is there really any point in having enhancements scale down when exemping at all any more?

You have way more slots when you exemp.  It would make you way more powerful than a lowbie with a few slots and full value SOs.  Not saying it couldn't be done but I can see why they would leave in scaling.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, CaptainLupis said:

Well considering SOs are available from level 2 now is there really any point in having enhancements scale down when exemping at all any more?

Yes. Ex’s have Way more slots.

[CaptainLupis]

21 minutes ago, josh1622 said:

You have way more slots when you exemp.  It would make you way more powerful than a lowbie with a few slots and full value SOs.  Not saying it couldn't be done but I can see why they would leave in scaling.

Personally I tend to thow all me early slots into my attacks, so most have at least 5 slots by level 15, which is generally around the lowest most people exemp to for Posi TFs. Now with SOs at that level with 1 acc, 3 damage and 1 rech red, or end red, slotted I'm not seeing how they will be way more powerful to be honest.

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, josh1622 said:

You have way more slots when you exemp.  It would make you way more powerful than a lowbie with a few slots and full value SOs.  Not saying it couldn't be done but I can see why they would leave in scaling.

You have SOME more slots, but not nearly all of them.

 

Let's take Posi as the most common thing to exemplar down for... the level cap is 15 which means a scaled down character will have their level 16, 18 and 20 powers and has an exemplar scalar of 0.391.

 

An actual level 15 will have nine primary/secondary/pool powers and a total of 14 extra slots. Those are probably all in attacks so two attacks with six slots, one with 5 slots... slotted with level 15 SOs those powers will have a total enhancement of +200% (+33.3 x 6) in the two, 166.6% in the third and all other powers (health, stamina, combat jumping, etc.) slotted at +33% each (or +25% depending on the enhancement type).

 

The exemplared character can have a total of +78% on any one power (if six-slotted) so even with all three extra powers (16, 18, 20) six-slotted (which they may not be... a lot of movement and utility powers tend to fall in that band) that's only a total of 234% (78% x 3) worth of enhancement bonuses... while their other powers are also cut to at most 78% each and anything single slotted (ex. Stamina) having its enhancement bonus dropped to just +12% or less).

 

And double slotting for range instead of the usual suspects means you're not even going to have the normal six slots worth of bonuses to acc/damage/etc. With the exemplar scaling those two Range SO's Captain Powerhouse mentioned aren't even worth a DO in terms of effect and you'll far short of 80' despite literally a third of the slots in the power being devoted to fixing this range nerf... because exemplar scaling simply can't account for slotting priority (i.e. a level 3 blaster can double slot their ENA with two range SOs and get past 80'... a level 33 blaster can't get to 80' when exemplared down even if they used all six slots for Range SOs).

 

A simple way to fix this is to remove certain enhancement types that are used more to "fix" than to "boost" from the exemplar scaling effects.

[Wavicle]

You would have to make a convincing argument for why that’s necessary.

[CaptainLupis]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

You would have to make a convincing argument for why that’s necessary.

Nothing in this game is necessary. It just seems the logical conclusion to making SOs available so early which, let's face it, was also not necessary. Personally I think doing it was a mistake, but that ship has sailed.

[Chris24601]

30 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

You would have to make a convincing argument for why that’s necessary.

How about... "the changes makes it a real pain in the butt to exemplar down so you'll get less people doing it"?

 

If you devote resources, as Captain Powerhouse said was the reason why they made it 60' with the intention that you could slot for range to get it up to 80', then having those resources fail in one of the more common situations; exemping down via teaming or Oroboros to do content is bad design... particularly when you have to eyeball your range and can't rely on having a consistent range to use as a guide.

 

At level 32+ with 2 SO's (+50% range) its 90' vs. your archery attacks' 80', at level 15 its only 71' (+19% range) vs. your archery attacks 80'.

 

So depending on your exemplared level your ENA and Ice Arrow go either 10' further (level 32+) or 10' shorter (level 15) so you can't get used to any one set of ranges. It is VERY disruptive to try and play this way so the solution is obvious... just don't exemplar at all. Those calls for more players to run a Posi? Ignore them. Don't bother doing missions you missed on the way up in Oroboros... run more PI radio missions where exemping isn't an issue.

 

Again... there's a bunch of people on this thread voicing that they have very real problems with this change. We're looking for some type of compromise and ALL you do is shoot down every attempt to find some way to maybe live with the changes without just shelving whole toons out of frustration with "my way or the highway" type responses.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

How about... "the changes makes it a real pain in the butt to exemplar down so you'll get less people doing it"?

 

If you devote resources, as Captain Powerhouse said was the reason why they made it 60' with the intention that you could slot for range to get it up to 80', then having those resources fail in one of the more common situations; exemping down via teaming or Oroboros to do content is bad design... particularly when you have to eyeball your range and can't rely on having a consistent range to use as a guide.

 

At level 32+ with 2 SO's (+50% range) its 90' vs. your archery attacks' 80', at level 15 its only 71' (+19% range) vs. your archery attacks 80'.

 

So depending on your exemplared level your ENA and Ice Arrow go either 10' further (level 32+) or 10' shorter (level 15) so you can't get used to any one set of ranges. It is VERY disruptive to try and play this way so the solution is obvious... just don't exemplar at all. Those calls for more players to run a Posi? Ignore them. Don't bother doing missions you missed on the way up in Oroboros... run more PI radio missions where exemping isn't an issue.

 

Again... there's a bunch of people on this thread voicing that they have very real problems with this change. We're looking for some type of compromise and ALL you do is shoot down every attempt to find some way to maybe live with the changes without just shelving whole toons out of frustration with "my way or the highway" type responses.

In the situation where you are exd doing Oro missions you have a character with a bunch of extra slots, powers 5 levels higher than the mission, and you're probably level 50. You definitely don't need to be able to use your immob at the same range as your blasts to do that.

Now if it ruins your fun, of course that's completely subjective and I'm genuinely sorry if it's the case.  But it's definitely NOT enough of a problem in terms of actual performance to justify the set getting to keep range on powers that the devs have explicitly said are supposed to be equal across sets.

[ForeverLaxx]

I think it's pretty clear that something will have to change with regards to enhancement scaling while exemplar'd in light of the enhancement changes coming down the pipeline, but that'll be for @Captain Powerhouseto look in to at some future date. This is neither the thread nor the time to really discuss such a proposal, and only really exists due to the 60 foot range being the "sweet spot" for range SOs to bump it back up to 80.

 

I personally believe that Electric Net Arrow and Ice Arrow don't have to "lose anything" to get their range back considering Tac Arrow is a fully ranged-based secondary and it's already being nerfed multiple times on top of the sweeping Control Magnitude nerfs all Blasters are getting hit with, but I also know that that ship is sailing and no amount of pointing out how poor the reasoning is will change it.

[Monkerlotus]

So I have not been active on the forums and see a change now that concerns me with plant manipulation on blasters.  Why is the AoE in the t9 slot now?  This change will brick my fire/plant in non-50s content.

[Wavicle]

7 minutes ago, Monkerlotus said:

So I have not been active on the forums and see a change now that concerns me with plant manipulation on blasters.  Why is the AoE in the t9 slot now?  This change will brick my fire/plant in non-50s content.

The t9 secondary is available at level 33 when exemplared.

[Monkerlotus]

22 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The t9 secondary is available at level 33 when exemplared.

This is true,  It is still a far cry from having my AoE at 16, I just don't see the others getting their AoEs run up to t9.  

 

33 really doesn't change the fact that I'll need to remake as another set for my main, this simply won't be fun to play with my DPS so heavily gimped for lower lvl gameplay for a main that I use for all content.

 

Spore Cloud makes no sense to me, being available so early, nothing really requires any -regen pre-50, aside from GMs.  Spore cloud being placed lower with that long cast time just doesn't feel good, the 3sec cast already keeps me from using that power in most mobbing situations since it draws before it finishes animating.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, Monkerlotus said:

So I have not been active on the forums and see a change now that concerns me with plant manipulation on blasters.  Why is the AoE in the t9 slot now?  This change will brick my fire/plant in non-50s content.

I too found this odd, but couldn't really put my finger on why. The effects of Spore Cloud aren't really that dire so early in a set for PvE content, and often the character can't effectively use such a draining toggle that early due to slotting issues. Frankly, I find most people running /Plant aren't picking the power at all until very late in their career as filler or utility once everything else is taken. Putting it early just means it's skipped a lot sooner and can mess up some low-level builds like yours that rely on Thorn Burst for low level AoE damage (though I don't pick this up either, so the change is a wash for me personally).

[Nemu]

I agree with the assessment on spore cloud. It's a skip at those lower levels, if it animated faster it might be another story but still a questionable early pick. We are playing blasters here, not rad defenders.

[Wavicle]

Never should have been a blaster power in the first place.

[CaptainLupis]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

In the situation where you are exd doing Oro missions you have a character with a bunch of extra slots, powers 5 levels higher than the mission, and you're probably level 50. You definitely don't need to be able to use your immob at the same range as your blasts to do that.

Now if it ruins your fun, of course that's completely subjective and I'm genuinely sorry if it's the case.  But it's definitely NOT enough of a problem in terms of actual performance to justify the set getting to keep range on powers that the devs have explicitly said are supposed to be equal across sets.

Except they haven't made them equal across all the sets.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, CaptainLupis said:

Except they haven't made them equal across all the sets.

All except Mental, I think? Personally I don’t love that design, but that’s the current setup I believe.

[CaptainLupis]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

All except Mental, I think? Personally I don’t love that design, but that’s the current setup I believe.

If they are going to have one outlier there is no reason it should be the only one. And if it really is their goal to homogenize the sets then do it, don't leave exceptions. That just leads to whataboutery, which leads to frustration for all parties concerned.

[Wavicle]

7 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

If they are going to have one outlier there is no reason it should be the only one. And if it really is their goal to homogenize the sets then do it, don't leave exceptions. That just leads to whataboutery, which leads to frustration for all parties concerned.

That’s not quite right I think. Mental gets range as part of its secondary effect. You might say Fire is an outlier in the same sense, it’s the only set with extra dot damage on most attacks. Electric the only set with end drain on most attacks.

 

 Their goal is not to homogenize the sets but to balance them. it’s not the same thing.

[CaptainLupis]

11 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

That’s not quite right I think. Mental gets range as part of its secondary effect. You might say Fire is an outlier in the same sense, it’s the only set with extra dot damage on most attacks. Electric the only set with end drain on most attacks.

 

 Their goal is not to homogenize the sets but to balance them. it’s not the same thing.

You were the one that said their goal was to make them all equal, not balanced.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

You were the one that said their goal was to make them all equal, not balanced.

Ranges equal on like powers, sets balanced. A minor quibble, I know.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Wavicle

[CaptainLupis]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Ranges equal on like powers, sets balanced. A minor quibble, I know.

And yet we get back to they are not all equal on like powers. Nor are the sets balanced. But this going round in circles is getting tedious and won't solve anything.

 

I'll be leaving /TA alone until the next issue, to see what they do to it next. It could be the new regen.

[Wavicle]

Just now, CaptainLupis said:

And yet we get back to they are not all equal on like powers. Nor are the sets balanced. But this going round in circles is getting tedious and won't solve anything.

 

I'll be leaving /TA alone until the next issue, to see what they do to it next. It could be the new regen.

They are though. Mental gets an exception for a very precise reason. Tac Arrow is still one of the strongest Blaster secondaries.