My latest idea for a Melee/Buff AT and Why It Won't Work

[Luminara]

On 12/27/2020 at 9:07 PM, Wavicle said:

The basic idea I have is to take Scrapper primaries (with a lower melee modifier than Scrappers) and give them Corruptor secondaries (with similar buff numbers).

 

...

 

Buff secondaries would have to be almost completely redesigned. I would remove ALMOST ALL powers that do not work on the caster.

 

I'd go the other direction.  Debuffs at full defender scalar values, very limited or no self/ally buffing.  Few toggles (i wouldn't give this archetype any toggles beyond status protection and movement options), de-emphasize control (absolutely no AoE controls, no more than one single-target Stun/Hold per set), and melee attacks at the Kheldian scalar.  Focusing on debuffing would require attention to one's surroundings, planning, strategic positioning, tactical assessment of situations, careful use of powers or appropriately designed builds to avoid being left without a threat response... that would be both interesting to play, and an actually new archetype.  Melee/buff or buff/melee, that's just a rehash of existing melee archetypes.

[ForeverLaxx]

9 hours ago, macskull said:

I did mean Dominator secondaries, yes. Addressing the rest of your post:

• IMO the reason Scrappers and Stalkers are as competitive as they are is because of the ATO procs for both ATs - they're the only ATs where the ATO procs completely change the way the AT plays, especially for Stalkers. I think the melee ATs are, overall, in a good place right now because there's a roughly inverse correlation between damage output and survivability (Tankers->Brutes->Scrappers->Stalkers on the survivability scale, opposite on the damage scale). Scrappers and Stalkers still have enough of a playstyle difference where each AT presents its own unique way to play, even if you pick the same powersets. It's also sort of like the Defender/Corruptor debate but I'd argue those are far more similar than Scrappers vs Stalkers. Some builds work better on one AT or the other and that's fine.
• The reason Sentinels seem to have no real identity in the game right now is because they're damage dealers that... are bad at dealing damage. Sure, they have the same ranged damage modifier as Dominators, but they suffer from gimped versions of ranged sets and a next-to-useless inherent. The existence of Blasters makes Sentinels pretty much irrelevant but that's only because Sentinels don't offer anything significant outside of minor debuffs in their t1/t2 attacks and the occasional single-target debuff from Offensive Opportunity.
• Guardians at least would have a unique playstyle and even if they weren't the most-damaging member of a team would still offer consistently available buffs and debuffs to act as a force multiplier.

ATO discrepancies is a fair point and I'd argue that these need to be looked at somewhat if their inclusion causes such a strong dynamic shift and playstyle modification, but that's an argument for another time. You are correct that this is more akin to the Corruptor vs Defender argument where each is so similar and often paradoxical in solo vs team scenarios.

 

As for the Sentinel, some of their ranged attack sets are actually better than the original set (and some are far worse). Sentinels need some kind of design overhaul and I'm sure most would agree with that but I think Sentinels suffer from the identity issue due mostly to IO sets allowing stuff like Blasters to have enough personal defenses to not be hampered. At that point, you play the Sentinel just to level with defenses rather than get them later via IOs.

 

Anyway, as this is a thread about a theoretical Melee/Support character, I don't think the answer is to just give them Scrapper armors with the bad/underpowered powers stripped from them and replaced with debuffs. Doing what you suggest, to me, is just "building a better Scrapper" and I'd rather they have a more unique identity than what I could get from a Scrapper running Spines/Claws and an APP with debuffs in it. I'm thinking something more along the lines of using PBAoE Debuff Toggles with a Mez Resist Toggle to keep them active, since they'll be in melee. Maybe give them something similar to the Blaster "sustain" toggles to help them survive the hits that do get through and support the endurance drain debuff toggles usually have. They can have pure melee, or a mix of melee and range like the Dominators with scalars that feel appropriate for their role.

 

This is where we can also put a "whip" powerset. Nudge nudge.

[Completist]

I agree with your sentiment, @Luminara, but I think that "just debuffs" could be restrictive to the point of overkill, and the resulting AT would miss out on some of the appealing variety that exists within the buff sets. Instead of focusing on that one game mechanic, build an AT that will

Quote

require attention to one's surroundings, planning, strategic positioning, tactical assessment of situations, careful use of powers or appropriately designed builds to avoid being left without a threat response... that would be both interesting to play, and an actually new archetype.

"Quick, tactical guardian" is a great idea, and we needn't redesign the wheel to make one. If your new AT emphasizes strategic positioning and tactics, it should have some control... but it would be good to keep it soft, like the existing options in most of the Support sets.

 

Why does it feel like we could use a new AT? The meta. If I think it's fun to support AND to punch people, my only option currently, is to take some mediocre pool powers. Especially underwhelming when you factor in low melee scales of Support ATs and *ugh* MM's huge endurance fees. Creative builds and procs can bridge the gap between ATs--I had an EM stalker back on live who could daze AVs with all her stacking Disorient procs (played like a punch controller and was super fun)--but with the changes to procs and reduced effectiveness of melee holds (for the sake of balance) I dunno if high concept builds are still viable.

[Player2]

On 12/29/2020 at 10:38 PM, Completist said:

Why does it feel like we could use a new AT? The meta. If I think it's fun to support AND to punch people, my only option currently, is to take some mediocre pool powers. Especially underwhelming when you factor in low melee scales of Support ATs and *ugh* MM's huge endurance fees. Creative builds and procs can bridge the gap between ATs--I had an EM stalker back on live who could daze AVs with all her stacking Disorient procs (played like a punch controller and was super fun)--but with the changes to procs and reduced effectiveness of melee holds (for the sake of balance) I dunno if high concept builds are still viable.

I have a melee / support character because I felt it was fun doing something different... supporting and kicking.  Of course, I also used to try to play the old AD&D 2nd Edition game to make characters that defied conventional roles because I disliked how multiclassing / dual classing worked.  3rd Edition was when all the old rules on what was expected of characters by class was thrown out and you could focus on concept over role.

 

My melee / support is a Martial Arts / Willpower scrapper (named Health Kick), and leans heavily on both the Medicine and Experimentation pools (along with Day Jobs powers) to provide healing, rezzing, and a couple buffs... along with the addition of a third rez option from the P2W Vendor so to make up for the slower recharge times of rez compared to traditional support pools, two single target ally heals and a Regen/Recovery/Resist buff, plus the dual function of buff or debuff from the Injection power.  Currently level 33 and very fun to play, although I wish I had other options to work with.  It looks like my next option to buff would be in the Concealment pool with the Grant Invisibility power, and that doesn't really fit with my character's field medic theme.

[Completist]

On 12/29/2020 at 9:11 PM, ForeverLaxx said:

This is where we can also put a "whip" powerset. Nudge nudge.

I've done some cheerleading and criticism in this thread, but not design, so I thought I would brainstorm and share a few of my own speculative Melee/Buff ATs. I am not sold on any of the names or terminology. 

 

#1: The "Lasher" (Buncher, Grappler, Rounder). Support/Melee.

"Lashers" dart around on the edge of combat, pulling stragglers and runners back into the brawl and bunching them together.

• Inherent: Pressure.
  Enemies hit by the Lasher have their damage and power effectiveness (heals, mez, etc) reduced for a short time. (Works like a Blaster's Defiance, but applies a debuff.)
   
• Signature Move: Pull.
  nstead of Taunt at level 10 in their Melee secondaries, Lashers have a short-range pull, themed to the set such as Fire Lash, Ice Lash, or Crack Skulls.
  
  A target up to 20' away is pulled to the Lasher, takes minor damage, and rooted with a soft mez (immob, disorient, kd, depending on powerset). 1-3 nearby foes have a 50% chance of getting pulled along. 

The pull would either be a TP or inverted Repel effect. Animations would be altered on elemental whip lashes (a la DS MM), or Taunt/Hand Clap for martial ATs:  "come here and get punched". 

 

 

#2: The "Stalwart" (Medic, Banner, Captain). Melee/Support.

Stalwarts stand at the front lines and protect their allies but must take care not to be overrun. 

• Inherent: Focused Resolve.
  The Stalwart builds "Resolve" with each hit, a measure of their determination in battle, which quickly fades if there are no enemies nearby.
  While their Resolve lasts, enemies in front of the Stalwart (20' cone, 180 degrees) have their damage reduced, and more susceptible to the Stalwart's secondary power effects (def/heal/mez/etc); higher Resolve creates a stronger debuff effect. Resolve also increases the effect of the Stalwart's friendly abilities (heals, buffs etc) on nearby allies (PBAoE, 20'). 

Positioning would be key, since you'd want to keep enemies in front of you and allies behind. 
 

 

#3: The "Trickster" (Guide, Infiltrator). Melee/Support or Assault/Support
Tricksters aid from the sidelines or the shadows, helping their team while staying safely beneath their enemies' notice. 

• Inherent: Hide.
  Trickster's T1 secondary replaces one of those support powers and works like Hide (less stealth with a slightly better defense scale). On those powersets with stealth powers (Steamy Mist, Arctic Fog, etc.) those get shuffled upward.
• While hidden, the Trickster's non-damaging powers do not alert enemies to their presence. Attacking or taking damage will temporarily reveal you.
• Signature: "Power Placate" (as suggested by the OP)
  Instead of a taunt power, Tricksters can placate a foe and immediately become hidden. For a short duration, their damage and mez effects of their powers is increased. 

Sounds like a pretty safe defender but you'll be up close and only doing medium damage. Perhaps also give them a power boost or mini-crit when hidden or attacking from hidden. 

[HelBlaiz]

My personal take (which I've posted in similar threads a couple times now I think) is to go the Support/Melee route. The class should have higher base health than Defenders, since they're required to wade into combat, and have relatively low damage output. I want a Support who fights shoulder to shoulder with the Tank, not a Glass Cannon with Healing Aura. The job is to survive and enable/disable for the good of the team, not solo AVs.

As such, the Inherent I would go with would build stacking Resistance and/or Defense for landing attacks (aoes grant stacks for each target hit) and are refreshed any time they use a Support Power. "But wait!" I hear you cry, "That means they have to attack to be tough! And they'll be squishy at the start of fights!" Well, their secondary replaces the Taunt power with Demoralize, which is like Taunt with a lower magnitude (ideally able to peel aggro off backliners, but not Tanks or Brutes) that applies a Damage Debuff to targets affected and grants Inherent Stacks. Demoralize to initiate, get max stacks, support at will, attack when able. This also makes them work in an Off Tank role, if the Blaster is in trouble, Demoralize the danger, it now deals less damage, is aggro'd on you, and you now have a helping of mitigation stats. You, being a smart guy, are standing next to the Tank, so when the danger reaches you, they're likely to Aggro onto the Main Tank. This is ignoring all the shenanigans you can pull off due to your support powers, like heal yourself, deal knockdown/back, stun, and debuff between roundhouse kicks.

 

That's my vision for a Support/Melee AT. I'd also demand we get a Shield Support set, because damn it I want Support/Melee Shields.

[Completist]

Neat idea! If they were to implement new ATs, an "Alpha Soaker" who can survive in short bursts but not as effectively as a tank would be high on my priority list. 

 

I like your tradeoff of "more aggro=more mitigation", a feature which most tank auras have, but in this case tied to a ranged cooldown. I don't like how they are almost required to take Demoralize to benefit from their Inherent. Mechanically it's quite similar to the Lasher I proposed above, but more streamlined and would be easier to implement. Bravo!

 

Having stacks refresh when you use a support power is a cool way to keep them around, maybe a bit too good. In typical endgame play against lots of mobs, you could cap your resists at the start of a battle and they wouldn't drop as long as you did healing aura once in a while or something. Maybe stacks deteriorate faster if you have more of them (kinda like a Fury bad?)

 

I'm guessing we'd probably want to modify any of this AT's Support Rez powers to work on self as well. I can imagine "Demoralize 6 guys, gain 6 stacks... fight, fight, 8 stacks, half health... do I Demoralize again or shed the aggro? Oops now the stacks expired, faceplant"

[HelBlaiz]

How broken it would be would depend entirely on how much mitigation each stack provides. And they can definitely use their passive without it, they're more than capable of building stacks with just regular attacks, but Demoralize is basically the game changer power. Once they get it, they don't have to worry about spending as much time stacking at the beginning, they can fire it off once the tank engages and then support away and weave in an attack when they get time. I'd cap it at 5 stacks max, with a hesitant starting point of 5% resist or 2.5% defense per stack and playtest from there.

[Hew]

Three words: DE AT (since AT is DEFINITELY 3 words)

 

Why cant a new praetorian AT not support something like this, with totally unique powersets?

Edited January 11, 2021 by Hew

[Wavicle]

Just now, Hew said:

Three words: DE AT (maybe AT is 2 words, so four?)

 

Why cant a new praetorian AT not support something like this, with totally unique powersets?

Theoretically possible, but a lot of investment for our tiny volunteer dev team.

[Wavicle]

Archetype is one word. XD

[Hew]

47 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Archetype is one word. XD

Hey, i did originally say 3 words!

[Pbuckley818]

On 1/7/2021 at 11:52 PM, HelBlaiz said:

My personal take (which I've posted in similar threads a couple times now I think) is to go the Support/Melee route. The class should have higher base health than Defenders, since they're required to wade into combat, and have relatively low damage output. I want a Support who fights shoulder to shoulder with the Tank, not a Glass Cannon with Healing Aura. The job is to survive and enable/disable for the good of the team, not solo AVs.

As such, the Inherent I would go with would build stacking Resistance and/or Defense for landing attacks (aoes grant stacks for each target hit) and are refreshed any time they use a Support Power. "But wait!" I hear you cry, "That means they have to attack to be tough! And they'll be squishy at the start of fights!" Well, their secondary replaces the Taunt power with Demoralize, which is like Taunt with a lower magnitude (ideally able to peel aggro off backliners, but not Tanks or Brutes) that applies a Damage Debuff to targets affected and grants Inherent Stacks. Demoralize to initiate, get max stacks, support at will, attack when able. This also makes them work in an Off Tank role, if the Blaster is in trouble, Demoralize the danger, it now deals less damage, is aggro'd on you, and you now have a helping of mitigation stats. You, being a smart guy, are standing next to the Tank, so when the danger reaches you, they're likely to Aggro onto the Main Tank. This is ignoring all the shenanigans you can pull off due to your support powers, like heal yourself, deal knockdown/back, stun, and debuff between roundhouse kicks.

 

That's my vision for a Support/Melee AT. I'd also demand we get a Shield Support set, because damn it I want Support/Melee Shields.

I had a similar idea, to your Demoralize I called it Goad also had them get a power called Faint (In place of Build Up) which is like a Placate that make the enemy more susceptible to attack. The idea being that it's like a Build Up for the whole party not just you, and can be used to take a bit of threat off you in a pinch.

[Marshal_General]

I just want to make a MA/kinetics character.

 

Is that Tsoo much to ask?