Why not just roll a scrapper or tanker?

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Infinitum said:

It has absolutely nothing to do with that, and you are both cherry picking and exaggerating today by a country mile.

 

Your test is like hooking a trailer to a Lamborghini and wondering why the F150 without a trailor beat it.

That bit about the pylon was an amusing anecdote. Not a test. And I stated so.

 

Doesn't change the fact that a damage secondary archetype is now pushing out nearly the same damage as a damage primary archetype while having superior mitigation thanks to it being an armor primary archetype. There's no cherry picking, there's no exaggeration. The changes did nothing but balance more than it was already broken.

 

So let's take it to the logical conclusion. Bump defender and controller base damage mods up to tank level and we'll call it a day. Why not at this point? What's it matter?

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Only issue is that they are fine now.

 

Remember the office testing?

 

Or is that not valid now?

See last post.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Erratic1 said:

"Tanker are fine people" like to claim that Tanker survivability is overkill and that Brutes (and other ATs) survive just fine solo. I'm inclined to cynically suggest then that since Tanker survivability is overkill then they don't need it. And if their damage has to be such that they are barely behind Brutes, then why bother having the Tanker AT at all? There is no need for the Tanker AT since clearly Brutes survive enough and if their claim is Brutes have superior damage, then what purpose do Tankers serve?

 

I am sure they will all get behind the notion of doing away with the Tanker AT. 

 

 

😈

Because we like to do stupid tanker tricks - and some brutes can pull them off as well FYI

 

And mainly because it's a game and they all are fun to play.

 

The argument isn't so much that its overkill as its that a team can usually provide the support to where it is overkill.

 

Usually being the key word - but even then with the savvy incarnate picks brutes can roll with the equivalent levels of overkill.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Heck if you want I'll roll EM Shield scrapper stalker and brute tonight and demonstrate the flaw in your claim.

 

I'll also roll the equivalent claw sr on the other three and demonstrate that.

 

You pick the test I'll run it for you.

 

The tanker won't win any of them.

Now you're grasping to avoid the problem. I know I can build em and shield on all 4 and I know exactly how it'll turn out, which will be exactly as the claws and sr tests turned out.

 

It changes nothing. Tanks were overbuffed. Some people don't care. Some of us find it ridiculous. And I'll keep playing my ludicrously broken shield/em tank and continue doing ridiculous things with it that I certainly shouldn't be able to do.

 

And I'll continue coming into these threads stating the same damn thing: they didn't need the buff, the didn't deserve the buff and the sure as hell shouldn't be in the same damage dealing league at all as their damage PRIMARY counterparts.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Doesn't change the fact that a damage secondary archetype is now pushing out nearly the same damage as a damage primary archetype while having superior mitigation thanks to it being an armor primary archetype. There's no cherry picking, there's no exaggeration. The changes did nothing but balance more than it was already broken.

That's your mistake - it's not pushing out the same damage - claws in a mission type will far outstrip any tanker because of shockwave and spin alone - then you throw in the attack that can double boost dmg and it's clearly faster. 

 

A pylon test will not demonstrate any of that - and that's why it's cherry picking.

 

Furthermore SR Scrappers can survive most content as good as any tankers.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

Now you're grasping to avoid the problem. I know I can build em and shield on all 4 and I know exactly how it'll turn out, which will be exactly as the claws and sr tests turned out.

 

It changes nothing. Tanks were overbuffed. Some people don't care. Some of us find it ridiculous. And I'll keep playing my ludicrously broken shield/em tank and continue doing ridiculous things with it that I certainly shouldn't be able to do.

 

And I'll continue coming into these threads stating the same damn thing: they didn't need the buff, the didn't deserve the buff and the sure as hell shouldn't be in the same damage dealing league at all as their damage PRIMARY counterparts.

They werent overbuffed when it takes 8-12 hits to take out a boss vs 4-6 for the brute.

 

You are just completely incorrect here and using cherry picked data to attempt to prove it because the mission simulator blew your point out of the water.

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Furthermore SR Scrappers can survive most content as good as any tankers.

Where "most content" equates to a max diff that I can solo with a defender now.

 

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

They werent overbuffed when it takes 8-12 hits to take out a boss vs 4-6 for the brute.

 

You are just completely incorrect here and using cherry picked data to attempt to prove it because the mission simulator blew your point out of the water.

4.5 mins for a claws tank vs 4 for the claws brute. That's not me cherry picking, it's you ignoring reality. Brutes are NOT taking out bosses with 50% less hits than tanks.

 

Side note: I would also nerf brute mitigation caps and buff their base values to be exactly 50% between tank and scrapper values.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Where "most content" equates to a max diff that I can solo with a defender now.

 

4.5 mins for a claws tank vs 4 for the claws brute. That's not me cherry picking, it's you ignoring reality. Brutes are NOT taking out bosses with 50% less hits than tanks.

 

Side note: I would also nerf brute mitigation caps and buff their base values to be exactly 50% between tank and scrapper values.

Well I'm glad you arent a decision maker then.  :-)

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Brutes are NOT taking out bosses with 50% less hits than tanks.

Yeah, they are.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Yeah, they are.

Lies. If it were true, then identically built tanks would be doing 50% less DPS against pylons. You know this is a false statement, why continue to make it?

[Erratic1]

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Side note: I would also nerf brute mitigation caps and buff their base values to be exactly 50% between tank and scrapper values.

I have sometimes wondered why this wasn't done, though I would  imagine its holdover from when CoV and CoH were separate to allow them to reach towards Tanker survivability. But really, would an 82.5% resistance cap more easily reached meaningfully change anything?

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Lies. If it were true, then identically built tanks would be doing 50% less DPS against pylons. You know this is a false statement, why continue to make it?

Lordy its not a lie.  Bosses - brutal mission simulator I counted the hits.

 

Tankers +4/8 no Incarnates 8 - 12 hits

 

Brutes no Incarnates 4-6

 

roughly depending on buildup etc.

 

Incarnates tightened that up a bit but that's how Incarnates work.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

I have sometimes wondered why this wasn't done, though I would  imagine its holdover from when CoV and CoH were separate to allow them to reach towards Tanker survivability. But really, would an 82.5% resistance cap more easily reached meaningfully change anything?

Nope. Whole game is far too broken for that. At this point it's nothing but random thought experiments. I would love to see a CoH that was mathematically meaningful.

 

Where archetype choice meant something. Where cast time was always taken into account for damage dealt. Where secondary affects of powers were universally utilized and balanced.

 

Instead, we've got a game where the only reason end-game content (read itrial "raids") isn't soloed or duoed or trioed on the regular is because it won't allow you to start them with that few people.

 

I love this game. Always have. But it does bum me out to see what it has become and appears to be going down a path of becoming worse because of it.

I get that there are some players that are very happy that their pet AT has finally become the "god" of the game and any attempt to roll that back sends them flying off into drooling psychosis. But that has nothing to do with balance.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Nope. Whole game is far too broken for that. At this point it's nothing but random thought experiments. I would love to see a CoH that was mathematically meaningful.

 

Where archetype choice meant something. Where cast time was always taken into account for damage dealt. Where secondary affects of powers were universally utilized and balanced.

 

Instead, we've got a game where the only reason end-game content (read itrial "raids") isn't soloed or duoed or trioed on the regular is because it won't allow you to start them with that few people.

 

I love this game. Always have. But it does bum me out to see what it has become and appears to be going down a path of becoming worse because of it.

I get that there are some players that are very happy that their pet AT has finally become the "god" of the game and any attempt to roll that back sends them flying off into drooling psychosis. But that has nothing to do with balance.

It's not getting worse, you are disgruntled for some reason and completely irrational about it even in the face of mounting evidence you are completely incorrect.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Infinitum

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

It's not getting worse, you are disgruntled for some reason and completely irrational about it even I'm the face of mounting evidence you are completely incorrect.

What you provide is hardly evidence of anything. Do you honestly believe that a tank takes twice as many attacks using the exact same attack chain as the brute with the same animations but only takes 30 seconds more time to down a pylon? Do you really believe that's how math works? Because you'd be wrong. As usual. We get it.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I love this game. Always have. But it does bum me out to see what it has become and appears to be going down a path of becoming worse because of it.

Probably different is a better term because some changes have been improvements (AH prices for example). But yeah, there are things I would love to see added and choice that have been made (including live) which might have been different.

 

 

[Replacement]

43 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Now you're grasping to avoid the problem. I know I can build em and shield on all 4 and I know exactly how it'll turn out, which will be exactly as the claws and sr tests turned out.

 

It changes nothing. Tanks were overbuffed. Some people don't care. Some of us find it ridiculous. And I'll keep playing my ludicrously broken shield/em tank and continue doing ridiculous things with it that I certainly shouldn't be able to do.

 

And I'll continue coming into these threads stating the same damn thing: they didn't need the buff, the didn't deserve the buff and the sure as hell shouldn't be in the same damage dealing league at all as their damage PRIMARY counterparts.

Hey, so, this is where it looks like you're avoiding data.

 

You really need an apples to apples comparison, by which I mean same sets and very similar slotting, so that every time you do come into threads with this, we can start to take you seriously again.

 

Ping me personally when you have this data and if it passes muster, I will happily advocate for you.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Replacement

[Infinitum]

For the record I like most of the ATs

Stalker is probably my favorite right now.

Tanker

Brute

Scrapper

Controller

Sentinel

Blaster

Defender

Corruptor

 

I play all of them and never once does it cross my mind geeze this isnt fair because this one does X and cant do Y

 

They are all fun and I'm glad to play thre game.

[GM Kaiju]

Keep the conversation and tone constructive please.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

They are all fun and I'm glad to play thre game.

We are capable of agreement. I am capable of separating my ability to have fun from my views of balance.

 

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

You really need an apples to apples comparison, by which I mean same sets and very similar slotting, so that every time you do come into threads with this, we can start to take you seriously again.

Which is why I have an em/shield brute and identically built shield/em tank on beta.

It's why I have a claws/sr scrapper, brute and sr/claws tank.

You're right when doing strict data crunching, that is the way to go.

 

And what we've all agreed on with various amounts of testing is that for clearing maps the brute still beats the tank. Where the arguments all come from is that some of us think the time difference is far too close between the two while others don't. In the end, as you can see from the back and forth, it doesn't matter at all. Some of us just like arguing for one reason or another. I can type til I'm blue in the face but don't expect what I see as a problem to ever be corrected. But I'm stubborn to a fault.

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I think I'm entering the phase where, thanks to all the ridiculous powercreep both before and after the snap, that I'm reminded of Syndrome... when everyone's super, no one is. All that extra damage that a stalker or scrapper can dish out doesn't mean much when they can't sit in the middle of Rom and his fluffies without faceplanting and tank damage is so close to brute damage while having greater build allowance thanks to higher base values, it's just gotten to the point where I wonder why I bother with anything but this ridiculous shield/em tank other than, "well, that other set looks cooler."

For better or worse shield/em might just be one of those combos that ruins other builds for you.

 

It is always bitter sweet when you find one. For me it is illusion/cold. Nothing I can come up with can hold a candle for the type of content I enjoy. Everything comes up short when evaluated against the st damage and hard target take down capability.

 

It may require you to pick something and go in an entirely different direction. For me I'm now chasing 1k dps builds - survival be damned! I don't know if I'll get there, but I don't have any interest in playing something that tries to compete against my ill/cold because it will fail.

 

Shield/em might be the melee version of that for you.

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

What you provide is hardly evidence of anything. Do you honestly believe that a tank takes twice as many attacks using the exact same attack chain as the brute with the same animations but only takes 30 seconds more time to down a pylon? Do you really believe that's how math works? Because you'd be wrong. As usual. We get it.

Well there is the fact I have known how to count since I was 2 or 3 maybe.

 

And... Again im referring to bosses not pylons here.

 

That's a completely different dynamic.

 

And no, you don't get it.

[StriderIV]

Data is data, and data is king =P

[Erratic1]

16 minutes ago, Replacement said:

You really need an apples to apples comparison, by which I mean same sets and very similar slotting, so that every time you do come into threads with this, we can start to take you seriously again.

Where does this notion come from and why is  it so popular? The ATs are different and the game gives them different damage and resistance scales. You are NOT going to use the same slotting to reach resistance cap on a Tanker that you are going to have to use on a Brute. To do so would be to ignore the actuality of how the ATs are actually built and played in the game.

 

For example, take Electrical Armor. A tanker sticks 3 SOs in Charged Armor and  3 more in Tough and is at 79.24% Smashing/Lethal resistance (55.47% Energy). By contrast a Brute is at  59.43% Smashing Lethal resistance (41.6% Energy). The Brute is going to have to invest very differently to cap with IOs than the Tanker will and people in play will do those different investments. They are not going to artificially slot identically and relying on identical slotting to say something is going to end up saying something not at all related to the actual game situation.

 

If you do not build to reflect reality than you're not talking about reality.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Erratic1

[Infinitum]

Like I said - brutal mission simulator - no Incarnates - I'll make any competing build you want and I already know the answer.

 

Or I can run with alpha slotted - whatever you want.