"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Apparition]

2 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Low damage archetypes aren't supposed to be high damage archtypes. They have their own roles to fulfill. 

 

Damage procs need nerfed or even removed from the game entirely. 

As I pointed out above, when a Defender loaded with damage procs does almost as much damage as a Blaster, there is a very serious problem.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I am pretty sure the below shows Brutes doing more damage than Tankers and not just barely. Curiously, if you compare 10 to 8 its a 20% greater value--in line with Bubba's post. But if you compare 9 to 7...well, 8% ain't anywhere near 28%.

 

But.... Again.   lol the tanker is able to hit more through AOE. The brutes raw dmg is still a lot more by default - the fact that the brute won against the tankers strength is telling IMO

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The Brute vs Tank talk I think could be separated into it's own thread.

No, you started this you must suffer the consequences meow.  😆

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

No, you started this you must suffer the consequences meow.  😆

Can always move it over to here:

But really... any discussion of game balance needs to take into account the "balance philosophy" of those in control and problems with that philosophy need to be pointed out.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Erratic1]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

But.... Again.   lol the tanker is able to hit more through AOE. The brutes raw dmg is still a lot more by default - the fact that the brute won against the tankers strength is telling IMO

Being able to hit more through AoE is still doing damage. Increasing AoEs is meaningful to damage considerations. And if you are going to say it isn't, then fine, increase Brute's area of effects too.

 

Edit: Obviously one could simply increase Brute survivability to be within 8% of a Tanker's. Of course at that point, probably easiest just to do  away with one AT or the other.

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Erratic1

[BelleSorciere]

3 minutes ago, Apparition said:

As I pointed out above, when a Defender loaded with damage procs does almost as much damage as a Blaster, there is a very serious problem.

I love having six damage procs in irradiated ground but it does seem to be a bit much

[Galaxy Brain]

@Bill Z Bubba, think you could try it again with a different Pri/Sec combo? By nature certain ones may lean toward one or the other.

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Being able to hit more through AoE is still doing damage. Increasing AoEs is meaningful to damage considerations. And if you are going to say it isn't, then fine, increase Brute's area of effects too.

 

And you keep saying "won". I've outlined above how that is disingenuous.

But.... Again..... The tanker is supposed to hit more now - thats it's schtick - the brute is supposed to excel at raw dmg output which wont necessarily translate out to a map clear which favors the tanker because of how tankers are now.

 

Im not saying the aoe doesnt count - I'm saying its not gauging the brutes raw dmg output well.

 

The fact that the brute still won with smaller aoe arcs demonstrates in my mind they still do more dmg by a good margin - 8% doesnt gauge 8% more dmg just a clear time because - again - if the tanker kills a 100 hp minion with 110 dmg in 1 second and the brute kills a 100 hp minion with 130 dmg in one second - the brute still did more dmg but wasnt noticed because it's dmg was overkill against the minion and tied the tanker in kill speed.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Infinitum

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

But.... Again..... The tanker is supposed to hit more now - thats it's schtick

Only because someone decided it to be without taking into consideration at ALL of the actual outcome of such a change and its affect on archetype balance.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Only because someone decided it to be without taking into consideration at ALL of the actual outcome of such a change and its affect on archetype balance.

It didn't imbalance anything - it gave the tankers a better role while not infringing on the brutes raw dmg output.

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

But.... Again..... The tanker is supposed to hit more now - thats it's schtick - the brute is supposed to excel at raw dmg output which wont necessarily translate out to a map clear which favors the tanker because of how tankers are now.[/quote]

 

The entire "raw" damage bit is nothing the game says. But tell you what...since it is only raw damage, how big the hit is, that counts then let's give Brute's unlimited area of effects--they hit everything in the map (or zone if outside). Since that does not impact their damage standing relative to other ATs by your claim, nothing will have changed vis-a-vis Brutes and any other AT. 

 

I am imagining Brutes will take to hovering and farming entire zones by just repeatedly spamming their area attacks, but hey...damage will not have changed.

 

Quote

 

Im not saying the aoe doesnt count - I'm saying its not gauging the brutes raw dmg output well.

 

The fact that the brute still won with smaller aoe arcs demonstrates in my mind they still do more dmg by a good margin - 8% doesnt gauge 8% more smh just a clear time because - again - if the tanker kills a 100 to minion with 110 dmg in 1 second and the brute kills a 100 to minion with 130 smh in one second - the brute still did more dmg but wasnt noticed because it's dmg was overkill against the minion and tied the tanker in kill speed.

 

The raw hit is not the only consideration. Why would it be? Again, infinite range for Brutes.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Erratic1

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

It didn't imbalance anything - it gave the tankers a better role while not infringing on the brutes raw dmg output.

Horse manure. It drastically increased the tank's raw damage output in every area of the game where the number of enemies around the player is greater than the brute's aoe cap. Edit: Ooops, also when more enemies could be fit into the tank's now larger range for its aoes.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Infinitum]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

Horse manure. It drastically increase the tank's raw damage output in every area of the game where the number of enemies around the player is greater than the brute's aoe cap.

The brute will kill stonger enemies faster still no matter how many are around.

 

Thats a fact.

[roleki]

There's also the elephant in the room: a Tank that has a sizable survivability advantage for a small damage penalty (say, +25/-8) compared to a similarly-built Brute might be the better choice for your run of the mill door-clicker, but in situations where you can sustain a 400/ 500 damage buff, that Tank might as well be a vanity pet.   But, you're really only going to get a sustainable damage buff of that type in a very specific scenario and you don't want to balance based on THAT.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

The brute will kill stonger enemies faster still no matter how many are around.

 

Thats a fact.

So the hell what? Its single target damage is still greater. Awesome. That means something ONLY against AVs, Pylons and GMs. For the rest of the time, read vastly more of the time, the tank is dishing out more. And that should NEVER be the case since the tank is running with vastly more damage mitigation 100% of the time.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

The entire "raw" damage bit is nothing the game says. But tell you what...since it is only raw damage, how big the hit is, that counts then let's give Brute's unlimited area of effects--they hit everything in the map (or zone if outside). Since that does not impact their damage standing relative to other ATs by your claim, nothing will have changed vis-a-vis Brutes and any other AT. 

 

I am imagining Brutes will take to hovering and farming entire zones but just repeatedly spamming their area attacks, but hey...damage will not have changed.

 

 

The raw hit is not the only consideration. Why would it be? Again, infinite range for Brutes.

What you are saying here is missing the point badly.

 

Tanker kills 16 minions in 1 second

 

Brute killes 10 in 1 second

 

In the following second of time the brute kills the remaining 6 but also has whittled the boss down to 50 percent

 

The Tanker is still at 75 percent on the boss

 

In the following second the brute ST attacks the boss to finish it

 

The tanker ST hits the boss and is only down to 25 percent.

 

Both are good - both have a place - but the brute outputs more raw dmg.

 

And it matters.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

So the hell what? Its single target damage is still greater. Awesome. That means something ONLY against AVs, Pylons and GMs. For the rest of the time, read vastly more of the time, the tank is dishing out more. And that should NEVER be the case since the tank is running with vastly more damage mitigation 100% of the time.

.its aoe dmg is greater too, its still hitting the hard targets with more rw aoe dmg even if its not hitting as many.

 

The tank isnt dishing out more dmg - its just hitting more targets.  Once the brutes cap catches the tanker its dmg output leaves it behind as it should.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Infinitum

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Infinitum said:

.its aoe dmg is greater too, its still hitting the hard targets with more rw aoe dmg even if its not hitting as many.

100 * 16 = 1600.

120 * 10 = 1200.

Who is doing more raw damage again?

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

What you are saying here is missing the point badly.

 

Tanker kills 16 minions in 1 second

 

Brute killes 10 in 1 second

 

In the following second of time the brute kills the remaining 6 but also has whittled the boss down to 50 percent

 

The Tanker is still at 75 percent on the boss

 

In the following second the brute ST attacks the boss to finish it

 

The tanker ST hits the boss and is only down to 25 percent.

 

Both are good - both have a place - but the brute outputs more raw dmg.

 

And it matters.

 

This presumes the Brute survives the 16 minions and the boss as well as the Tank does. What...the extra hp and higher resists/defense stopped meaning anything?

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Erratic1 said:

This presumes the Brute survives the 16 minions and the boss as well as the Tank does. What...the extra hp and higher resists/defense stopped meaning anything?

That is obviously what he wants everyone to ignore.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

This presumes the Brute survives the 16 minions and the boss as well as the Tank does. What...the extra hp and higher resists/defense stopped meaning anything?

Well mine do. * grin*

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Well mine do. * grin*

Show me your Werner rules ITF runs with your brutes.

[Infinitum]

13 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

That is obviously what he wants everyone to ignore.

Ah nope, mine don't have that issue you are pretending your little test is the only build in the multiverse for brutes - and thsts not correct.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Infinitum

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

100 * 16 = 1600.

120 * 10 = 1200.

Who is doing more raw damage again?

Following second 

100*1 = 100

120*6 = 720

 

1600+100 = 1700

1200+720 = 1920

 

In two seconds against the same spawn what was the larger dps again?

Edited February 3, 2021 by Infinitum

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Ah nope, mine don't have that issue you are pretending your little test is the only build in the multimeter for brutes - and thsts not correct.

I'm pretending nothing. I'm especially not pretending that this crap is balanced because I've ALWAYS had some bias for tanks, thinking that they should be the Supermen of CoH and all other melee ATs should be inferior across the board like some people obviously do.