Is ninja training any good?

[Garymathers]

More importantly, how is the build up toggle that does critical damage? 
 

i have a character concept that is a heavy mercenary type character and want to run AR/ninja/mace or weapon mastery. The Rambo thread inspired me, but I already have a TA blaster. But in any case,  I assume this isn’t a very good combo. Since ar sucks with the small cones and long cast times. I was thinking maybe the crit Chance can help make up for some of the damage loss. Who knows. I was also thinking of running archery for a taskmaster type dude or fire and make it look like I have wrist blasters or something. I just want to make the ninja training set work somehow. 

[brasilgringo]

The critical damage kind of sucks, honestly.  It's less than a proc's worth of damage on many attacks.  Apparently it's lessened by AOE factors and other factors. I thought it would be awesome, but it's not.   I rolled it for concept (a Sith toon, with Elec (force lightning) and Ninja (lightsaber mod on Katana).  I wouldn't roll it again. I find /Atomic and /Electric a lot more powerful for blapping, and /Plant a lot better for ranged.    FWIW, I also think Elec/ is pretty weak without a full-on sapping build.  The Nuke cast time is horrendous and Short Circuit on its own (no PBU) doesn't sap enough and is a really slow DOT.  Concept toon only.

[DreadShinobi]

I have a fire/ninja/munitions blaster that is a currently unfinished project, but it does a few things other blasters typically cannot do. The most important piece being that it has several options to exceed the damage cap, whether that be from red insps, a kinetics, aim/gaussians, other team buffs, etc. The crit provided by shinobi is pretty minor, however it is still extra damage that is not impacted by your damage cap. /ninja + //munitions offers a ton of potential -res, with -20% from fury of the gladiator in GD, -14% + -20% achilles heel in surveillance, and -10.5% in smoke flash. 64.5% resistance debuff is no small number when it is boosting blaster base damage (and everyone elses). That is actually as much or more standard resistance debuffing as most any support character can bring (just mostly single target resistance debuffing for AV killing). Also not all blasters have access to consistent forcefeedback recharge procs, and golden dragonfly delivers. Choking Powder has a superb animation time compared to other holds like Stangler, Ice Arrow, Positron Cell, etc. making it great for some additional proc damage in your rotation.

[brasilgringo]

I don't want to argue with DreadShinobi, but honestly /Elec has 2 FF+ recharge procs (in Thunderstrike and Force of Thunder), and just misses out on the -RES in GD.  Smoke Flash is a dubious choice.   I don't think it's really fair to bring /Munitions into it as a tertiary/epic. Proc'd out Shocking Grasp > Choking Powder in my use.  Here's my build.  Happy for people to tell me what's wrong with it, but honestly my Fire/Atomic and Fire/Elec are miles ahead.  Rolling /Ninja in my mind was a mistake made for concept (katana->lightsaber).

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 3.0.1.9
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/Hero-Designer

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Sith Warrior: Level 50 Magic Blaster
Primary Power Set: Electrical Blast
Secondary Power Set: Ninja Training
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Lightning Bolt -- Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thn-Acc/Dmg(3), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(5), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Immobilizing Dart -- TraoftheH-Immob/Acc(A)
Level 2: Ball Lightning -- Artl-Acc/Dam(A), Artl-Dam/End(7), Artl-Acc/Dam/Rech(9), Ann-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), Ann-ResDeb%(11)
Level 4: Choking Powder -- HO:Nucle(A), GldJvl-Dam%(11), Apc-Dam%(13), UnbCns-Dam%(13), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(15), NrnSht-Dam%(15)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(17), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(17), WntGif-ResSlow(19), Ksm-ToHit+(19)
Level 8: Sting of the Wasp -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(33), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(33), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 10: Shinobi -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 12: Zapp -- StnoftheM-Dam%(A), StnoftheM-Acc/Dmg(23), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx(25), StnoftheM-Acc/ActRdx/Rng(25), GldJvl-Dam%(27)
Level 14: Short Circuit -- SprDfnBrr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBrr-Dmg/Rchg(27), SprDfnBrr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SprDfnBrr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), SprDfnBrr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprDfnBrr-Rchg/+Status Protect(31)
Level 16: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(A), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(31)
Level 18: Aim -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), RctRtc-ToHit(21), RctRtc-ToHit/Rchg(21)
Level 20: Kuji-In Toh -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 24: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 26: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(34)
Level 28: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def(37), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(37), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(37)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(36), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(36), RedFrt-Def(36), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(48), RedFrt-EndRdx(50)
Level 32: Thunderous Blast -- SprBlsWrt-Rchg/Dmg%(A), SprBlsWrt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprBlsWrt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprBlsWrt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprBlsWrt-Acc/Dmg(40), SprBlsWrt-Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 35: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(40), Rct-Def(42), Rct-ResDam%(42)
Level 38: Golden Dragonfly -- Erd-Dmg(A), Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Erd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Mlt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(43), FrcFdb-Rechg%(45)
Level 41: The Lotus Drops -- SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(45), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 44: Blinding Powder -- CrcPrs-Conf%(A), CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx(46), CrcPrs-Conf(46), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(46), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(50), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(50)
Level 47: Tactics -- HO:Cyto(A)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Defiance
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Prv-Absorb%(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon
Level 1: Momentum
------------

 

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Edited February 15, 2021 by brasilgringo

[nihilii]

I love my fire/ninja. It's probably my highest damaging character when it comes to ST damage. DreadShinobi listed most of the salient points. It's also worth noting you can slot an Achilles' Heel directly in Sting of the Wasp, so you get access to both -RES procs natively. The damage output of Blaze Sting Golden Blaze Sting Blazing Bolt is enormous (700+ DPS).

 

Note, this is building for damage with maximum procs and giving no damn about defenses. The standard approach of chasing defense set bonuses and slotting full sets probably doesn't work as well for /ninja as it does for many other secondaries, because /ninja gets so many proc options and so much out of procs.

 

Finally, there is something I expect to get fixed eventually but that is nice in the meantime: the endurance cost of katana attacks was not bumped when they doubled their recharge and increased their damage accordingly. You are getting very, very good DPE on Sting and GD.

 

1 hour ago, brasilgringo said:

Happy for people to tell me what's wrong with it, but honestly my Fire/Atomic and Fire/Elec are miles ahead.

Well... For starters, you forgot to pick Fire/* for your Elec/Ninja. 🙂

 

There is Fire Blasters and then there is everyone else. Fire Blast is broken on any AT that isn't Sentinels.

I suspect you'd find your Elec/Ninja closer to an Elec/Atomic or Elec/Elec, if you built them all roughly the same way.

[ZorkNemesis]

I rolled a Sonic/Ninja to 50 before the more recent waves of changes to the set.  My first piece of advice is to not do this as you will probably hate it, but I feel as though /Ninja offered a lot of control utility.  Stealth, an early hold and a cone sleep/confuse along with Sonic's big sleep and nuke-stun let me essentially pick and choose targets and generally take groups out safely (Following up Siren's Song with Blinding Powder let me sleep bosses in one go, which is pretty good).  The issue I ran into here was mostly damage output as, at the time, the sword attacks were weak and Sonic underperforms on a Blaster.

 

Since then I assume things are a little stronger now.  Higher damage with the sword has to amount for something when your primary set is constantly debuffing resistances and even though the criticals aren't too impressive they have to be better than the massive out-of-combat wait for the damage boost.  Smoke Flash also didn't work when I leveled it.  It was sticking -Res but not Placating targets like it says it does, which would've been real useful as a "get out of jail" option on a Blaster.  Don't know if that got fixed, but Sonic probably doesn't need that resistance.

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by ZorkNemesis

[Crysis]

Have a DP/Ninja all T4’d out now.  The Crit mechanic is noticeable for DPS but not a game changer.  The sword attack damage is very noticeable and since DP is a natural blapper set of attacks it all meshes together nicely.

[Uun]

I was leveling a DP/Ninja when the recent changes went through. The combo was primarily a concept for a themed SG team, but I realized I was unhappy with a blaster that had neither BU or Aim. It makes the nuke (if you can call Hail of Bullets a nuke) really unimpressive. I'm not impressed with the critical damage mechanic - it's more like a proc. I parked the character when it hit 50 and have no intention to Incarnate it. 

[brasilgringo]

12 hours ago, nihilii said:

I love my fire/ninja. It's probably my highest damaging character when it comes to ST damage. DreadShinobi listed most of the salient points. It's also worth noting you can slot an Achilles' Heel directly in Sting of the Wasp, so you get access to both -RES procs natively. The damage output of Blaze Sting Golden Blaze Sting Blazing Bolt is enormous (700+ DPS).

 

Note, this is building for damage with maximum procs and giving no damn about defenses. The standard approach of chasing defense set bonuses and slotting full sets probably doesn't work as well for /ninja as it does for many other secondaries, because /ninja gets so many proc options and so much out of procs.

 

Finally, there is something I expect to get fixed eventually but that is nice in the meantime: the endurance cost of katana attacks was not bumped when they doubled their recharge and increased their damage accordingly. You are getting very, very good DPE on Sting and GD.

 

Well... For starters, you forgot to pick Fire/* for your Elec/Ninja. 🙂

 

There is Fire Blasters and then there is everyone else. Fire Blast is broken on any AT that isn't Sentinels.

I suspect you'd find your Elec/Ninja closer to an Elec/Atomic or Elec/Elec, if you built them all roughly the same way.

Rational points for sure.  I don't really focus on ST damage when I'm playing my blasters as I'm usually trying to nuke as many mobs as possible, and then the mop-up usually goes pretty fast.  So it's possible I haven't really even gotten a ton of use out of GD with FF+ / -RES so far, and I did (as you note) slot Sting for set bonus (Def) instead of another -RES proc.  I put a Res proc in either Ball Lightining or (later) Short Circuit I think, to try to get it to apply more broadly (though obviously they're not exclusive).    My other knock on Ninja - besides really being let down by the "critical" damage -- is the very small PBAOE (8-foot radius) on Lotus Drops.  A lot of the other secondaries, incluidng Atom Smasher (10-foot) and Thunderstrike (12foot), have bigger radius PBAOE melee attacks, which really helps with hitting more mobs.   Dragon's Tail ported over to Martial has the same issue (8-ft) but at least does KD and can slot a FF+ recharge, which makes it useful for spamming (with its quick anim).

[Garymathers]

On 2/15/2021 at 2:18 AM, nihilii said:

I love my fire/ninja. It's probably my highest damaging character when it comes to ST damage. DreadShinobi listed most of the salient points. It's also worth noting you can slot an Achilles' Heel directly in Sting of the Wasp, so you get access to both -RES procs natively. The damage output of Blaze Sting Golden Blaze Sting Blazing Bolt is enormous (700+ DPS).

 

Note, this is building for damage with maximum procs and giving no damn about defenses. The standard approach of chasing defense set bonuses and slotting full sets probably doesn't work as well for /ninja as it does for many other secondaries, because /ninja gets so many proc options and so much out of procs.

 

Finally, there is something I expect to get fixed eventually but that is nice in the meantime: the endurance cost of katana attacks was not bumped when they doubled their recharge and increased their damage accordingly. You are getting very, very good DPE on Sting and GD.

 

Well... For starters, you forgot to pick Fire/* for your Elec/Ninja. 🙂

 

There is Fire Blasters and then there is everyone else. Fire Blast is broken on any AT that isn't Sentinels.

I suspect you'd find your Elec/Ninja closer to an Elec/Atomic or Elec/Elec, if you built them all roughly the same way.

Thanks for this.  I’ve been trying to do more unorthodox builds lately. I really like procs and going with high damage or lockdowns instead of chasing defense caps that I don’t reach until I’m already bored of the toon anyway. 

[Nemu]

You won't get the 2-5 or the hardest hitting procs (all the purple damage procs plus superior blasters wrath) until you are 50, and you still need to invest quite a bit in acc/recharge and possible endurance management/recovery if you crazy with procs on every power which is not recommended unless you have a secondary that can make up for those factors in the powers you decide to proc monster, or you will be looking at incarnates to patch those holes. If you get bored of a build before 50 you are surely not going to keep interest if the build requires IOs that you can't slot until 50 and incarnate slotted to really shine.

 

Procs are pretty unorthodox on blasters but I don't think these builds mature any faster than going for defense. You can have a fairly mature defensive build by the time you get scorpion shield/bonfire and unlike proc builds that sacrifice defense and other set bonuses, be fairly self sufficient to boot.

 

None of that really matters though. You really do feel like a ninja doing a golden dragonfly from stealth and using smoke bomb. It doesn't have the tankmage potential of /elec but it's still a solid and fun secondary. Don't worry about numbers too much, blasters do plenty of damage and if you start lamenting that you should have picked x or y instead just remember lol melee don't have nukes and those chumps hide behind their mez protection and pretend they are worthy, and lol sentinels.

 

Embrace the set for what it does, be a ninja!

[Shred Monkey]

On 2/15/2021 at 2:18 AM, nihilii said:

 

There is Fire Blasters and then there is everyone else. Fire Blast is broken on any AT that isn't Sentinels.
 

The issue with fire, is really just Blaze.  It's way above the normal DPA of other attacks.... and since fire has a snipe, this set gets turned into a total damage GOD when you pull those 2 powers and combine them with attacks from other sets.   However, if you're looking at building an attack chain with powers only from fire, it's you get left filling gaps with tier 1 or 2 powers, whereas sets like Ice and Beam Rifle have better options for filling the gaps between their Top ST hitter and their Snipe. 

[Herotu]

On 2/15/2021 at 4:45 AM, DreadShinobi said:

I have a fire/ninja/munitions blaster that is a currently unfinished project, but it does a few things other blasters typically cannot do. The most important piece being that it has several options to exceed the damage cap, whether that be from red insps, a kinetics, aim/gaussians, other team buffs, etc. The crit provided by shinobi is pretty minor, however it is still extra damage that is not impacted by your damage cap. /ninja + //munitions offers a ton of potential -res, with -20% from fury of the gladiator in GD, -14% + -20% achilles heel in surveillance, and -10.5% in smoke flash. 64.5% resistance debuff is no small number when it is boosting blaster base damage (and everyone elses). That is actually as much or more standard resistance debuffing as most any support character can bring (just mostly single target resistance debuffing for AV killing). Also not all blasters have access to consistent forcefeedback recharge procs, and golden dragonfly delivers. Choking Powder has a superb animation time compared to other holds like Stangler, Ice Arrow, Positron Cell, etc. making it great for some additional proc damage in your rotation.

This is probably a brilliant post. 

 

If only I could gain the benefits of such information without it being so... mathematical. 😞

[DreadShinobi]

27 minutes ago, Herotu said:

This is probably a brilliant post. 

 

If only I could gain the benefits of such information without it being so... mathematical. 😞

The tldr is that it is a great blaster choice for endgame team content where you fight strings of archvillains. It is a blaster choice where you put out similar amounts of damage as any other fire blaster but also function as a strong damage multiplier for the rest of your team.

 

A heavy proc blaster means you will have less in the way of defensive set bonuses, and especially if you opt into surveillance, which has a poor mans resistance shield means you will benefit heavily if you play primarily on teams where there are floating maneuvers stacks, ice shields, or other defensive buffs, and melee archetypes that will help reduce your incoming damage load.