Earth Control - thoughts?

[Xiddo]

The stars aligned last week and I did a Yin where 3 of the 8 (2 controller, 1 dom) all had Earth Control.
I'm a plant or fire control person normally but have now been looking Earth more. It seems... Pretty good. Nice lockdown, which I love. I know it isn't super damage but that's fine.

 

I wanna make something with Earth Control but am tied up between Earth/Kin, Earth/Rad, or an Earth/Fire dom.

Earth/Dark was a back-up contender but I've got a fire/dark in the wings already.

I know ppl love storm with earth but my first 50 on live was a stormer and I was an idiot kid, without mids, and had no idea what to do with it. I now have really bad associations with the set, it's my CoH vodka.

 

I assume Earth/Rad is highly regarded because you debuff the backend out of the already locked down mobs? Teams excel then.

Kin is kin.
I love doms a lot and haven't tried fire on one yet. Hoping the damage will even out the lack of dam on earth.

 

Any advice for earth appreciated - like...

1. Does the FF proc work in Earthquake on just the cast or also the pulses? Good places for a -res proc too?

2. Is the little rock-man good? As I said, I'd normally be teaming on this toon. Do you need the chunky boy when you have teammates to soak up the bullets?

3. Im assuming every power solid? I won't be getting the single immob. I know the autohit -def from quicksand is a boon.

4. is it an end heavy set?

[Coyote]

1: It works in EQ with a 90% chance on the drop only. -Res procs aren't good here due to the large area and 10 second tick time that makes the activation chances really low. I put a -Res in Volcanic Gases, though.

2: Animate Stone is very good, especially soloing, and especially with some secondary that can keep him alive against AVs. Then you get the ability to tank AVs for the team at need, or if soloing. Damage-wise he's solid against a single target, but has no AoE damage so at the usual large spawn sizes of a team, he doesn't really do much.

3: Quicksand is a waste, you get -Def from Earthquake also, then everything else does -Def also. And if you go with /Rad, you get more -Def from Radiation Infection. Kins do like -Def, but Kinetics is a busy set, and Quicksand is a slow animation, and I'm not sure it's worth taking even though it doesn't need slotting. Salt Crystals is also unnecessary, as the knockdowns from Earthquake will cancel it out pretty fast... it's only useful against adds, and even then it's a PBAoE so you have to go meet the adds... just not that useful.

4: It has the usual End costs of comparable powers for most Controllers, but has pretty slow animations in most cases. Well, except for Stone Cages, which has a fast animation, high End cost, and short Recharge... so if you want to bottom out your Endurance, it's one of the better AoE Immobs with which to do it. But since you don't really need to spam it, the other slow animations actually prevent you from burning Endurance as fast as you might like otherwise.

[SeraphimKensai]

Back in the realm of i13 I used to use an Earth/Storm controller for PvP duels. It was absolutely nasty as it had huge Debuffs, mezzes, and would end drain my opponents.

 

It was a fun combo.

[Doomguide2005]

I like Quicksand myself, but I can understand why it's considered obsolete by many post ~40.  I tend to take it for a couple reasons.  First one of Earth's strengths is the sheer amount of control it can offer good for handling adds and ambushes.  QS is one of those controls.  Second I tend to exemp frequently and one of the things that can get low(er) level teams in trouble is getting overwhelmed and overrun.  QS will slow any pursuit and allow a team to withdraw and regroup more readily.

    In addition to Earth/Rad consider Earth/Cold.  Sleet, Benumb, and Heatloss are a potent trio of debuffs vs hard targets and the Shields can take many of those desirable defense and damage resistance special IOs as well as being very useful buffs for teammates, particularly before defense caps are met.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Clarity

[Xiddo]

You know what... As more than one of you has said it: I might go for /Cold. I'd normally go for something that can heal back what I lose but Im assuming the lockdown chaos negates the need to heal so much, and I'll have some built in def I was otherwise chasing with sets.
Or maybe, just maybe, a decade later I can put on my big boy pants and try out storm...

Thanks all for your help!

[Windchime]

3 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

3: Quicksand is a waste, you get -Def from Earthquake also, then everything else does -Def also. And if you go with /Rad, you get more -Def from Radiation Infection. Kins do like -Def, but Kinetics is a busy set, and Quicksand is a slow animation, and I'm not sure it's worth taking even though it doesn't need slotting.

50 Earth/Storm, 50 Earth/Therm, mid 20s Earth/MA chiming in on Quicksand:  

• Quicksand's value as a defense debuff drops off once you're properly slotted.  If you actually level the character via content, you will be happy you have this at the lower levels.
• Quicksand's use as a pulling tool is useful 1 through 50.  Slot a range in it and drop it at the feel of the first unit in a mob and the rest of the mob will bunch up nicely AND increase the chance of you low accuracy AoEs landing.  In the age of defensed capped everything it doesn't come up as often, but I still like having the trick in MY toolbelt. 

[Windchime]

6 minutes ago, Xiddo said:

You know what... As more than one of you has said it: I might go for /Cold. I'd normally go for something that can heal back what I lose but Im assuming the lockdown chaos negates the need to heal so much, and I'll have some built in def I was otherwise chasing with sets.
Or maybe, just maybe, a decade later I can put on my big boy pants and try out storm...

Thanks all for your help!

the AoE Immobilize mitigates much of the chaos storm can cause in a very good way.  Just make sure you reapply the immobilize every 10 seconds or things go flopping everywhere.  Strong combo for soloing.  

[Xiddo]

Same thing happens with roots -> tk thrust on my dom, so hopefully I remember enough! 

I think I didn't like it before because I had literally no idea what I was doing. It was pre-ED and man alive did I love using gale... Cringe looking back at me on a Frostfire mission now. 
Just hoping I can get enough +rec/+end for storm!

[Xiddo]

In a way, I'm really happy I put this here cos I would never have thought cold or storm with this. Two sets I've never really used, at least properly.
Maybe I'll do cold for a laugh. See how Mr Poo looks with a little ice jacket.

[Area Man]

Back on the Live forums, I wrote a detailed Earth/Rad guide.  There are a few things out of date, but not much.  You can find it here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120904193426/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=121712

 

Earth is the best AoE control set.  Rad goes with EVERYTHING, so it is a great combo -- although low damage until you get your pet..  

I wrote that guide before some of the newer sets were around, like Cold, Dark, Nature, etc.  But Earth/Rad is still an excellent combo.  Earth/Storm is probably my first choice, but Earth/Dark will be a very potent combo.

I disagree that Quicksand is a waste -- Slow plus -Defense that stacks with the -Defense in other powers.  I throw down quicksand constantly, as it substantially reduces your misses.  It is especially effective before Stalagmites and/or Stone Cages, as it helps you hit more foes.  PLUS, I think the value of Slows are underrated.  for example, Quicksand will prevent foes from running out of the effect of "rain" powers as fast, so they take more damage but they still aren't attacking while trying to run.  Look at the effect of the Slow in powers like Hot Feet and Arctic  Air, and you'll see what I mean -- they try to run out of the Area of Effect, but can't do it very fast.

Furthermore, the -Defense becomes more useful as you battle higher level foes.  So you may not need it much against even level, but it really helps against reds and purples.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Area Man

[Area Man]

6 hours ago, Xiddo said:

 

1. Does the FF proc work in Earthquake on just the cast or also the pulses? Good places for a -res proc too?

2. Is the little rock-man good? As I said, I'd normally be teaming on this toon. Do you need the chunky boy when you have teammates to soak up the bullets?

3. Im assuming every power solid? I won't be getting the single immob. I know the autohit -def from quicksand is a boon.

4. is it an end heavy set?

1. Not sure -- I usually slot a couple of Recharge in Earthquake and that's it.  Too many other places for my slots.  I don't think the effect is significant.
2.  Rocky (or "Poo Man") is one of the better Controller pets -- I'd rank him #2 (snicker) after Grav's Singularity.  Most important is survivability.  If you slot him with both Resistance Procs, he becomes very hard to kill, and makes a great tank/aggro magnet.  One of my favorite tricks is to use full invisibility to run to the far side of a group of foes.  When Rocky plows in, the foes gather around him, and are sitting ducks for AoE control powers.

3. The most skippable power is Salt Crystals, a PB AoE Sleep.  On teams, it is worthless, as teammates will wake them up immediately.  Solo, it usually misses a few, and they come after YOU -- but you can't use any AoE power or you'll wake up the others.  BUT -- it looks cool.  Only useful for a Dominator.

Personally, I usually take the single target Immob and slot it as a single target attack.  It allows you to easily stack immob on a boss or someone missed by your AoE while doing damage.  Since Earth is so lacking in Damage, that single target damage (plus Fossilize) become your main source of damage until you get your pet.

4. Depends on how you play and your secondary.  If you sit in the back ranks of a team and only use AoE controlls when they come up, then no.  If you play aggressively, using Stone Prison and Fossilize as single target damage and lots of damage procs in Stone Cages for damage, YES it will use up your endurance.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Area Man

[Android Nim]

for what it's worth...earth/sonic is a sleeper. It's meh solo but turns almost any team into a steamroller. 

 

enantriodomos has a guide out there somewhere. 

[Xiddo]

Thanks to ya'll who suggested storm. I bit the bullet after a little beta-fiddle. Time to learn from tiny-Xiddo's mistakes... Earth/Storm//Earth. Might keep Cold Dom for something else. Either a defender or Fire/Cold Dom, seeing the imps in ice would never get (c)old I think.

[Corythia]

I LOVE Earth control. 

 

I know some may not like Quicksand, but I think it has great synergy with other earth powers.  I will keep baddies in your earthquake or volcanic gasses longer, and will increase the chances of volcanic gasses hitting and locking down purple mobs.  It can also help team mates who may not be well enhanced actually contribute to a team.

 

My preferred Earth pairings are:

 

Earth/TA

Earth/Storm

Earth/Nature

Earth/Rad

 

All of them have soooo much control available that you feel godlike.  With decent recharge, you can lock down an endless succession of adds in bad rooms.

 

The only power I would probably not take is salt crystals.  It has a long duration, so can lock down a set of adds, but the range is pretty short, making it a lot less useful than it might be.  Also Sleeps (beside Electrics') will go away as soon as someone aoes near them, and someone ALWAYS aoes.  I have skipped the single target immobilize on some builds, but it can come in handy and costs a lot less than the aoe immobilize for locking tough bosses or AVs  in place.  It lets you set up containment on a boss more quickly and for less end.

 

The Stone pet is my second favorite (Jack Frost is my favorite).  He can tank AVs pretty regularly.  He hits like a truck.  It's single target, but it does give you some offense.

 

Soloing Earth can be really slow till you get the pet, regardless of your secondary or procs.  It gets a little better when you get an epic pool attack, but still solo on earth is slow.  On a team though, especially vs purple mobs, it is very strong support.

[Corythia]

If you're going Earth/Storm, I highly recommend taking Thunderclap ( the Storm pbaoe stun).  A lot of people skip this power on storm builds, but with earth you can use it in combination with Stalagmites to stack Stun on bosses and reliably control a whole mob.   I would also take the single target immobilize on Storm, as it lets you control Lightning Storm and Tornado on single targets with out the huge end cost of the aoe immobilize.

 

 

[Doomguide2005]

21 hours ago, Windchime said:

<snip>

• Quicksand's use as a pulling tool is useful 1 through 50.  Slot a range in it and drop it at the feel of the first unit in a mob and the rest of the mob will bunch up nicely AND increase the chance of you low accuracy AoEs landing.  In the age of defensed capped everything it doesn't come up as often, but I still like having the trick in MY toolbelt. 

There's a solid tip buried in this post.  Many of Earth's patch powers such as QS can, with an SOs worth if range enhancement, be used even on longer hallways from around a corner and completely out of LoS of a retaliatory response by the mob.  Between QS and VG plus other powers like Freezing Rain or Sleet you can devastate a mob from complete safety.

[Coyote]

15 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

There's a solid tip buried in this post.  Many of Earth's patch powers such as QS can, with an SOs worth if range enhancement, be used even on longer hallways from around a corner and completely out of LoS of a retaliatory response by the mob.  Between QS and VG plus other powers like Freezing Rain or Sleet you can devastate a mob from complete safety.

 

That's doubly true for /Storm, as Tornado doesn't need LOS to be summoned. You can literally dump controls AND damage on a spawn from around a corner... EQ, FR, QS, VG, and Tornado.

[Xiddo]

I toyed with a fire/time/dark build troller, not unlike the corr build that’s knocking around. Looks good but worried about the end costs. Time time very end heavy to me, and then combined with fire... woah boy.

[Xiddo]

2 hours ago, Corythia said:

I LOVE Earth control. 

 

I’m really happy so many people have come out to big it up. Prior to this it felt like the one that’s not talked about a lot, just above ice. 

 

2 hours ago, Corythia said:

I know some may not like Quicksand, but I think it has great synergy with other earth powers. 
 

<snip>

 

Soloing Earth can be really slow till you get the pet, regardless of your secondary or procs.  It gets a little better when you get an epic pool attack, but still solo on earth is slow.  On a team though, especially vs purple mobs, it is very strong support.

I’ve gone for QS in the build. I figured there was no harm. No slots, just a rech. I exemp a lot so the -def will be good.

And I don’t really ever solo? The teaming in this game is why I love it, I hated other games in between live and HC cos they felt empty. I’ll only ever go solo if I’m doing an annoying badge or something - which reminds me: I must go rescue a police officer 3 times for the dream doc again...

[oedipus_tex]

Earth is a set I usually personally prefer on Dominators. However there are some Controller combos that are pretty good if you can get past the low damage.

 

Earth has very low single target DPA due to long cast times on its Hold and Immobilize. The AoE damage isn't great but at least better than Ice Control (granted, most things are.) Overcoming low damage isn't as hard as it used to be; there are attacks you can grab in pools and procs you can add to at least make livable. However it can potentially lead to a feeling of being a low contributor in certain content.

 

It's worth noting that Stalagmites requires you to be touching the ground to cast. As builds get better and better this usually means Stalagmites recharging quicker and quicker, terminating at every 15-20 seconds or so. 

Full disclosure, on Homecoming my namesake character "Oedipus Tex" himself is an Earth/Savage/Leviathan (for Water Spout) Dominator. 

[Xiddo]

12 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Earth is a set I usually personally prefer on Dominators. However there are some Controller combos that are pretty good if you can get past the low damage.

 

Earth has very low single target DPA due to long cast times on its Hold and Immobilize.

Seen a couple of your posts about Earth control on doms which is why I even thought about it. Up until then, I'd rationalised it as "domination doesnt help X, so whats the gain?". I'd planned out an earth/psi/ice but I've got a plant/psi/ice and I was worried about it feeling stagnant. And I basically just want to try an earth/fire for consume & blaze to help out end and ST dam.

[oedipus_tex]

6 hours ago, Xiddo said:

Seen a couple of your posts about Earth control on doms which is why I even thought about it. Up until then, I'd rationalised it as "domination doesnt help X, so whats the gain?". I'd planned out an earth/psi/ice but I've got a plant/psi/ice and I was worried about it feeling stagnant. And I basically just want to try an earth/fire for consume & blaze to help out end and ST dam.

 

 

Yeah, at a glance it doesn't seem that Earth would be that great on Doms because most of the powers don't Dominate. I personally consider it one of the best sets though, especially once IOs are added to bring recharge down. 

 

Although Earth, Fire and Gravity all rely on an AoE Stun for their key control, Earth is different than the other two because it has very low damage in the actual control set. Powers that Dominators and Controllers share actually do more damage on Controllers because of Containment, so Char/Hot Feet or Propel/Lift on the Controller will outdamage the Dominator version even before you apply any extra +Damage or -Resist in the Buff/Debuff set. With Earth, though, adding the Assault set is a big lift because Fossilize and Stone Prison animate so slowly and the only other powers you get that cause damage are Stone Cages or Stalagmites. You can't enhance most Earth Control powers for -Defense like you can Dual Pistols or Radiation Blast so it's not easy to catch up with damage procs either.

The second thing is that AoE Holds are mostly just not good powers, even on Dominators. It's true that Volcanic Gasses doesn't Dominate. But it's such an effective power it doesn't matter. The Dominator gets a lot of mileage out of being able to place this power and then focus on blasting. At permadom levels of Recharge, Volcanic Gasses recharges as fast as it duration. In my experience this makes all the difference in being able to solo big groups at hard difficulties. Enemy groups just can't easily punch through a Mag 6 Stun, knockdown + -ToHit on top of the Holds in VG. VG also works a bit differently than e.g. Choking Cloud or Arctic Air in how it selects targets that makes it more effective when the enemy group size dwindles.

 

There are other things worth noting. Dominators have very little debuff, +defense, or +resist available to them. Earthquake's -ToHit, which isn't that noticeable on a Controller can tip a Dominator into soft cap territory. 4 Dominator sets get a Power Boost type power that nearly doubles this debuff, and it lasts the whole duration of the quake. Controllers can only match this if they take the Primal Pool which (to me) is often not as useful for an Earth Controller.

Beyond that, there's just the speed and practicality of Stalagmites. It triggers nearly instantly when you click it, with very little wind up. This is a hard thing to measure, more of a feel. But it's just a very reactive power that suits a class that doesn't have many other debuffs or sources of healing/defense/resistance. 

There are a couple of Controller secondaries that closely mirror Assault sets. Mainly, /Storm Summoning. Earth/Storm is very similar to a Dominator in a lot of ways. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Coyote]

6 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

There are other things worth noting. Dominators have very little debuff, +defense, or +resist available to them. Earthquake's -ToHit, which isn't that noticeable on a Controller can tip a Dominator into soft cap territory. 4 Dominator sets get a Power Boost type power that nearly doubles this debuff, and it lasts the whole duration of the quake.

 

Good write-up in general, but to me this is the gem of the post. Other than power-boosted EQ, Earth Control is a good set on Dominators but not really special. However, Doms generally get -ToHit only in Dark Control and Dark Assault... having a long-duration -ToHit that can be Power Boosted to about 16% is a huge difference between Earth Control and other control sets. Even without the knockdowns, it's a huge defensive benefit.

 

Now, run it with Dark Assault and add in -13% from Engulfing Darkness and the Life Drain. You're now running about -30% ToHit debuff around you, with mez protection and a self-heal. Very different from the usual Dominator who depends on mezzing opponents for safety. Especially since you can still mez them. But even if you don't, it's pretty easy to hit the softcap to everything, have mez protection, a bit of healing, as well as damage... if you're not facing -Def debuffs or +ToHit on the mobs, you can pretty much tank spawns at x8 even without having them controlled.

[Cenozoic]

On 2/17/2021 at 4:54 PM, 5099y_74c05 said:

Anything */Storm will have end issues but it isn't insurmountable. End utilization becomes manageable with the +Recovery and +End IOs available and slotting End Redux in key end hog powers. These are enough where you won't need to commit your Alpha slot to mitigate End usage.

 

/Cold and /Storm overlap to a degree. /Cold has stronger buffs and debuffs where /Storm adds control, damage and "shaping" to the mix. Shaping is where you move mobs around with Hurricane either to cluster or split them.

Herdicaning

[Grindingsucks]

I haven't played many controllers but I do have an Earth controller and enjoyed it very much.  It doesn't do a ton of damage but if you want to play the ultimate "lock them down and make them helpless" toon, this is a pretty good choice.  I could render almost every group of mobs helpless with it, it's just that it takes forever to whittle them down to size until you get old rocky to help you out.

 

I guess nickel and diming your enemies to death is pretty much standard for controllers, though, right?  They aren't designed to dish out high ST or AOE dmg. 

 

If you have a whole team of 8 of them laying on stone cages, earthquake, and volcanic gasses at the same time, it could be pretty brutal, though.  😁