The problem with removing Training Enhancements

[Glacier Peak]

3 hours ago, Tigraine said:

No, I was pointing out a change in what was possible as a consequence of removing TOs.  Telling me to go buy stuff or play in groups is ignoring the whole purpose of this statement:  highlighting what I believe was an unintended and unconsidered consequence of the change.  In short, ignoring the whole point of the post. 

 

This isn't the Help forum, it's Suggestions and Feedback.  If I was looking for advice on different ways to play, I would not have posted here.

Yeah, feedback is feedback I guess. 

[Tigraine]

18 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

I don't think "making TOs less available" is an unintended side effect of, well, making TOs less available.

 

TOs are literally terrible, their only good side being origin-independent, like you said. Though maybe something should be done about how DOs and SOs drop, and making it easier to acquire ones you can use, instead of pretending that TOs offer any tangible benefit and trying to cling onto them.

 

18 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

The issue was brought up to the Dev team when this feature was first experimentally tested.  We had a conversation about methods of mitigating the economic costs of the change.

 

 

 

Let me restate the problem:

 

With the removal of TOs, the rate of drops of usable (i.e., slottable due to origin restriction) enhancements) has decreased dramatically for any given character.

 

Telling people to spend Inf and buy more enhancements does not change this fact, nor does mitigating the cost directly address it.  Yes, it can mitigate the secondary effects of it, but it does not change the core problem of a lack of usable enhancements.

 

TOs may have been less effective, but I wouldn't necessarily call them "literally terrible;" they did the job, even if DOs/SOs/IOs were better.  But in the early levels, all you really need is something to do the job and get you through. 

 

Changing DO/SO drops to get more that match the character's origin would be an improvement, yes.  Basing these drops completely on the character instead of the enemies would solve it entirely.  Of course at that point, origins could be removed from the game altogether, as it would effectively remove the last vestiges of any origin-related mechanical content (which might not be a bad thing at this point in the game).  But that's probably a discussion for another thread.

[EmperorSteele]

Naw man, they ARE literally terrible, and any percieved effect they have is a placebo, especially at early levels when you only have 1-3 slots per power.

 

Unless you want to tell me that 8% of 10 damage is a game changer.

 

Also, this change was made as an inf sink. Most people have a farming toon, or a high level character, or one they use for marketing... some way to bankroll lower level toons. If you don't, that's okay, but the reality is that there's trillions of inf sitting unused by the playerbase, and this change was partially made to address that.

 

Also, at least one part of this problem is self-inflicted: you play with 2x XP on for those low levels. So not only can you not afford new enhancements, but you're probably outleveling anything you happen to have slotted within 1 or 2 missions. And you're getting less drops at a given level than you would normally (lets say you have to defeat 50 bad guys to go from level 5 to 6. Those 50 bad guys would drop 10 enhancements. But you're only defeating 25 bad guys for that level, and therefore only getting 5 enhancements. After that, its the next level range, and your enhancers are already going bad). THAT is entirely on YOU. If you choose to not earn inf, and to speed through the low levels, well, you still have the right to complain, but it's hard to take those complaints seriously =(

[Galaxy Brain]

In defense of @Tigraine, what he is describing is Technical Debt to a tee.

 

TO's are basically worthless to begin with, but they are even moreso now with them being utterly replaced by the origin specific enhancements earlier on. But, they still "exist" in the game and drop for players all the same despite being completely obsolete.

[Grouchybeast]

4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

TO's are basically worthless to begin with, but they are even moreso now with them being utterly replaced by the origin specific enhancements earlier on. But, they still "exist" in the game and drop for players all the same despite being completely obsolete.

I think the only way to get them now it to deliberately put a vendor in a base and buy them.  Them not dropping any more is the core of @Tigraine's complaint.

 

That said, I don't think I've ever slotted TOs, since I started playing in I13.  I guess I've thrown in an occasional accuracy if I noticed I had one.  The bonuses on them are so pathetic, and even back then you out-levelled them so fast I never saw the point.  

[arthurh35353]

Well, there are now low level buffs to make the low level game less of a hassle anyways.

[UltraAlt]

On 3/4/2021 at 6:33 AM, Tigraine said:

This completely misses the point, i.e., getting through the first ~20 levels  or so just on using what drops, without spending any Inf that's just going to be wasted when I get to IO-slotting levels.  I could do this before without much difficulty, now it's become more of a problem.  I'm highlighting this issue as a "law of unintended consequences" effect I'm guessing the Devs didn't consider when they took out TOs.

The original game :: https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Training_Enhancement_Costs

 

Training Enhancements are the least potent of all Enhancements. They are dropped by enemies for characters of level 1-21. 

TOs only ever dropped to level 20.

Training Enhancements (up to level 20) may be bought in Freedom Corps stores located in various zones, from Freedom Corps Superpowered Field Trainers in Atlas Park, Kings Row, and The Hollows

 

You can by level 25 and 30 TOs at Freedom Corp Special Forces stores in Independence Port and on Talos Island.

 

Characters are just more powerful at lower levels than they used to be ... if they want to be.

Some players get power leveled to 50 and don't have anything slotted.

Play the game the way you like to play it. If you like to put yourself in a position where your suffering, well ... if that's what you enjoy, go for it.

Edited March 8, 2021 by UltraAlt

[Rejolt]

Power creep and all - we may have to rework Invention Origin scaling now. 10-25 should base around an even level SO, 26-40 should b +3 SOs, 41-50 should be the current level 50 level.

 

But I realize the mindboggling annoying task of factoring all the IOs, crafting badges and etc.