Seeds and teaming...

[Nferno]

Curious what thoughts are on seeds of

confusion while teaming. 
My thoughts were (until asked not to use it citing xp loss) to use them as the opener to assist in staving off the alpha as one of the blasters typically jumped in first to drop a nuke. The confused mobs would not have much opportunity to damage one another, thus the group not losing any noticeable significant XP. Whatever remained after the nuke was usually mowed down in rapid succession, again limiting any noticeable XP loss. 
I’ve  never personally “felt” the xp loss when soloing. Anyway, was curious on others opinions regarding this. 

[DreadShinobi]

SoC increases XP/Time, and by a larger factor, drops/time and reward merits/time

[Meknomancer]

I dislike teaming with domi/troller running plant but its not an xp/inf issue its more the seeds-immob-creepers combo pinning everything before the mob has a chance to bunch together and get hit by the rest of the team. I end up watching the melee toons running about trying to single target enemies pinned out of range while the troller/domi has already left the mob to hit the next one. When you team with them you feel like your just there on clean up duty to finish up whats left of a couple of bosses/mob it just isn't fun and its why i stopped playing mine. You could run ahead and hit mobs alone but then you may as well be playing solo. Teaming with plant/domi trollers feels like that. They may as well be soloing everything while you wander along behind them. Its a lot like teaming with a high dps toon that runs ahead wiping maps/speeding through and then you get to the av and they throw out assemble the team because its the only part of the tf they can't handle solo.

[oedipus_tex]

I feel like that piece of text about xp loss has caused a lot of avoidable heartburn over the years. Unless you stand back and let mobs solo each other, Confusion powers don't appreciably reduce your rewards. In particular, one reason they are incredible when soloing is inspiration drops aren't negatively impacted. Inspiration churn is the key to lawnmowing through difficult packs.

[Nferno]

6 hours ago, Meknomancer said:

I dislike teaming with domi/troller running plant but its not an xp/inf issue its more the seeds-immob-creepers combo pinning everything before the mob has a chance to bunch together and get hit by the rest of the team. I end up watching the melee toons running about trying to single target enemies pinned out of range while the troller/domi has already left the mob to hit the next one. When you team with them you feel like your just there on clean up duty to finish up whats left of a couple of bosses/mob it just isn't fun and its why i stopped playing mine. You could run ahead and hit mobs alone but then you may as well be playing solo. Teaming with plant/domi trollers feels like that. They may as well be soloing everything while you wander along behind them. Its a lot like teaming with a high dps toon that runs ahead wiping maps/speeding through and then you get to the av and they throw out assemble the team because its the only part of the tf they can't handle solo.

I agree with this...to a point but singling out Doms here is where I take issue. IF I’m on a team that recognizes a melee toon’s preference for herding AND the melee toon knows how to herd and hold aggro then I agree that a premature SoC can be a problem. However, it’s just like a premature nuke or any other attack fired prematurely that pulls aggro from the melee before the herding is complete. Melee is left to run around after mobs. I played mainly tanks on live with an emphasis on herding, so I get it. Nothing was as frustrating and a squishy interrupting the herding process. 
With the current aggro caps and lack of tanks, most pug missions don’t have enough members that let a melee toon herd up anyway. Most pugs seem to have tons of DPS, they’re mainly nukes & clean up with little emphases or attention given to herding. On these particular teams, which essentially are a free for all, I find it difficult to think SoC would hurt XP gains. 

 

[Meknomancer]

Yup as i said its got nothing to do with xp/inf although as dread alludes to time is always a factor when you take seeds into account. Not everyone playing wants to speed through everything as fast as possible and most don't run things simply for drops/inf...a lot of players you will see around are there to team and your original question was what are peoples thoughts on teaming with toons running seeds. I feel like most running those types of toons may as well be soloing the tf, the rest of the team are just there to clean up whats left and help out at the av's. Its just a feeling from recent tf's run with plant domis and controllers when the team leader is asking them to hold up and wait for the rest of the team. Its different for everyone...now that your playing one do you feel the need to be the first person to every mob so you can hit it with seeds before the rest of the team arrives?

 

If you only have an hours game time/day due to RL stuff then you generally find players want to run speed stacks in record time for rewards/drops/inf as fast as possible in which case those players appreciate some fast active play and seeds really helps out there. If you find yourself on a team of players looking to kill every mob together old school style coh where everyone participates and nobody is rushing through then you'll find people complaining if your running ahead throwing seeds out before the rest of the team arrives or they just end up bypassing those mobs entirely. I like to check out everyones builds before teaming starts to see what they are running and how powered/over powered it will be and try to play in a way that helps out the weaker toons and just let the stronger ones get on with it. If i see a toon running seeds i automatically assume they can solo everything they come across with no help and stick with other members of the team buff/heal/take aggro for them instead. 

 

[Clave Dark 5]

One could just ask the Dom (or whomever) to please wait for the mob to form up before dropping Seeds then.  If they don't listen, kick-em.

[Nferno]

15 hours ago, Meknomancer said:

 Its different for everyone...now that your playing one do you feel the need to be the first person to every mob so you can hit it with seeds before the rest of the team arrives?

 

 

Whenever I'm playing my squishies, melee is leading the charge IMO.  Things have definitely changed since I played on live, squishies used to rely on tanks (or brutes) but it seems very situational now. I almost feel like mob level caps should be raised or something along those lines (maybe allow +6 instead of +4 and give tanks a buff) to create more of a challenge and give some structure back to teams as well as a reason (or need) to have tanks. There's honestly very few times that any strategy is needed except some of the very high end content (& some TFs). Anyway, rambling now and more OT but just my .02. 🙂

[Xiddo]

18 hours ago, Meknomancer said:

If i see a toon running seeds i automatically assume they can solo everything they come across with no help and stick with other members of the team buff/heal/take aggro for them instead. 

 

I agree with this. I know I'll usually be fine with most mobs on my own (except for those blasted kheldians on the ITF). I also know that is really, really boring for a team. So I try to make sure I hang on until the whole mob is down. I can easily stop a rez'd freak tank in its tracks, for example, which might mean the under-levelled blaster at the back isn't left to try to solo it.
I kind of consider it like I have to pseudo tank, looking at members' health/ where the aggro is, because...

 

19 hours ago, Nferno said:

With the current aggro caps and lack of tanks, most pug missions don’t have enough members that let a melee toon herd up anyway. Most pugs seem to have tons of DPS, they’re mainly nukes & clean up with little emphases or attention given to herding. 

 

 

I so rarely find teams with (good) tanks (who know how to keep aggro/have taunt/can group up mobs), more likely scrappers or brutes, that I learnt a more aggressive style of play. Sure, a brute can take the alpha better than me. But quite often they'll bolt before the mob is down or, because of no gauntlet, the mob will just stop paying attention to Fire Brute 4000 so either me or the blaster get a shed load of aggro.

You know what does keep the aggro off me and the whole team if no-one has taunt? Control powers. For example, if theyre attacking each other. Every 10-15 seconds I remind them to punch their mate and not mine. Its my number 1 form of control. It just so happens that it's a highly damaging form of control. It mitigates the team taking a lot of damage in the same way any control power does - it just so happens that in the process it kills them. 

When I do team with tanks, I make a point of messaging them before we get going asking how they want to do it. Let em herd then I confuse and roots, or can I seed and they grab the ones I missed and lock em all down.

Being annoyed at seeds feels like being annoyed at a blaster's nova because...

 

18 hours ago, Meknomancer said:

the rest of the team are just there to clean up whats left and help out at the av's.

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Xiddo
spelling

[Meknomancer]

Being annoyed at seeds feels like being annoyed at a blaster's nova because...

 

would be true if the blasters nova was up every 5-7 seconds. Seeds is up every mob. It doesn't annoy me none of the powersets do at least not half as much as the energy blaster or stormy that feels free to knockback everything on the map with no regard for the rest of the team.

 

As to finding good tanks its becoming more and more the case that tanks are building towards dps and even more of them think taunt is a skippable power that if they just jump in a mob there job is done. How many times do you see them aggro the entire map stand next to the team and expect them to handle all the spill over aggro when they have no way to taunt enemies off the squishies or think 'punchvoke' is enough. I've stood next to av's on soldiers/widows/shield scrappers knowing the tank won't hold the aggro because all they are doing is clicking footstomp and have no taunt. I don't blame them there so many posted builds on forums if your looking for something it probably won't have taunt in the build and with so many different AT's being capable of tanking/soloing everything in game now there may not be a need for it. I love that HC brought the game back to us but within a week i heard complaints about the changes made because everything was made to be soloed and i just thought can't you just be happy the games back.

 

Anyway Seeds is just one of those powers you need to be considerate with the same way you would be with something like Gale. Its never the power thats the problem its usually the player using it and i just figure its either lack of experience with it or they are just old pro's who can handle anything which is the reason i'll jump past the mob they hit. I love that Xiddo will take the time to ask the other team members thats the sort of consideration i really appreciate when teaming.

[Xiddo]

 

33 minutes ago, Meknomancer said:

anyway Seeds is just one of those powers you need to be considerate with the same way you would be with something like Gale. Its never the power thats the problem its usually the player using it and i just figure its either lack of experience with it

There is one power in every control set which is a pain in the bum I think, unless the player is, as you said, an old pro and knows how to use it. Side note: I teamed with a Grav/DA controller with both dimension shift and black hole a while ago, who I am fairly sure was new to the game rather than a troll. However I now appreciate the DS changes.
 

33 minutes ago, Meknomancer said:

As to finding good tanks its becoming more and more the case that tanks are building towards dps and even more of them think taunt is a skippable power

Oh my days I love you YES. GET TAUNT LADS.

End of the day, it's a great power on a really really good set. Just need to know how it interacts with other stuff and be sensible. The carrions, for example, are a nightmare sometimes. On an asteroid farm map I can get most of the mobs onto a spawn because the carrions have gone loopy. Great for me when farming! But on the 3rd ITF mission? Bad times. Lots of EBs about...

 

33 minutes ago, Meknomancer said:

take the time to ask the other team members thats the sort of consideration i really appreciate when teaming.

I read a post a while ago where people were talking about how annoying it is when trollers/doms spam immobs and since then Ive tried to be really aware of those powers for when there's a half-decent tank about. I think its much more important on the lower missions than the higher, at end-game most people are relatively strong.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Xiddo
Spelling (again)

[VV]

On 3/28/2021 at 11:33 PM, Nferno said:

(until asked not to use it citing xp loss)

If this happens, drop team and find a better one. You are clearly on a team who does not know what they are doing because

On 3/28/2021 at 11:33 PM, Nferno said:

use them as the opener to assist in staving off the alpha as one of the blasters typically jumped in first to drop a nuke. The confused mobs would not have much opportunity to damage one another, thus the group not losing any noticeable significant XP. Whatever remained after the nuke was usually mowed down in rapid succession, again limiting any noticeable XP loss. 

this and

On 3/28/2021 at 11:47 PM, DreadShinobi said:

SoC increases XP/Time, and by a larger factor, drops/time and reward merits/time

this are actually the case. While, what your team leader said has not be true for ages. I mean, you could try to educate them, but that rarely goes well and is hardly worth the trouble when you could find a new team in no time.

On the other hand, this

On 3/29/2021 at 10:01 AM, Meknomancer said:

the seeds-immob-creepers combo pinning everything before the mob has a chance to bunch together and get hit by the rest of the team.

can be a real problem. However, this most likely means your team tank sucks, they are too slow. They should be out in front and have the next group gathered by the time anyone else gets there. If, somehow the Planter is getting out in front of a fast tank, then either tell them to wait for the tank, or boot them.

On the third hand, this

On 3/29/2021 at 10:01 AM, Meknomancer said:

When you team with them you feel like your just there on clean up duty to finish up whats left of a couple of bosses/mob

is not just the situation with Planters, it is true of all Dominators/Controllers, and is, in fact, fact. To all Dominators/Controllers, all other ATs are just cleanup. It's just facts.

[DreadShinobi]

A controller/dom using an aoe immobilize before clumping is not plant specific. Any control set sans mind and illusion can make that player error. Sometimes it can reduce dps/clear speed and sometimes it isnt a factor anyways.

 

SoC can actually assist in mob clumping depending on the enemy faction if theyre more or less likely to shoot at each other or opt to try to melee early in their power cycle. Knowing these tendencies can help you determine how long to wait to cast roots after SoC. 

 

I also feel like an early aoe immob cast is still far less impactful on effective aoe followup than the disruption that can be caused by improper use of energy blasting, hurricane, force bubble, dimension shift, black hole, sonic cage, detention field, etc can cause. But why be aggravated by it? You can politely mention that it is disruptive, and if the response is *idgaf* then you can either find something else to do or if you're the team leader and it is disruptive to 6 other people's play experience take appropriate action. Anything is fair game when you're solo or if you mention ahead of time that this is how your character operates, but like anything else it speaks volumes to be considerate of those you group with, even if you're that energy blaster with maximum knockback slotting who loves sending hellions flying.

[MTeague]

I would use Seeds of Confusion relentllessy, unless specifically asked by the team leader to stop.

If the team leader asks that I not use Seeds,  I drop group. Period.

 

I have very few true red lines in this game. But "omg I losing xp!!!!" is such a misplaced concern compared to the vast increase in kill speed. And hell, blasters are probably following any case of Seeds with a Fireball, so the mobs are all tagged, you're going to exp. 

[Grindingsucks]

I'm fine with confusion.

Also Knockback.

Yes, even when I'm tanking.

 

Ideally, I would like the team to try and coordinate with one another to use these powers to best effect, but obviously some confused critters are going to run amok and a knocked mob will bounce around "somewhat" randomly, depending on the angle of attack.

 

If a massive knockback blast blows a lot of mobs at once, out of my Aggro sphere, the cool visual effect is worth it to me.  Just don't bust my chops for failing to tank properly.  At that point, it's totally on whoever did the knockbacking.  😛  

[oedipus_tex]

The one area IMO Confusion really can cause a mess is when facing enemies who have Storm powers. e.g. the Coven witches. This is a mainly limitation of Mind Control and Electric Control than other sets though because they can't easily stop the mass chaos that follows.

 

The witches don't appear as level 50 enemies, nor do any enemies that use Storm powers en masse. Most other enemy groups don't have enough knockback for it to matter but it can get irritating.

[vynestra]

I thought they made a change to confusion and xp but I didn't see anything, however considering I've farmed a lot on my plant/fire/fire dom, it hasn't been an issue for me, especially since I aoe with roots and fireball right after theyre confused. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by vynestra