MM pets ALL die upon achieving new level

[Tahliah]

I've run MMs since they were first introduced back on live, but tonight, something very new and bad happened. I was in a mission and dinged a new level right in the middle of a battle . . . and all my pets died.  The battle was a regular old COX battle, at most I might lose one dude, but this was literally, "DING"--every summoned MM pet died.  Simultaneously.  This can't be intended, and it certainly wasn't due to the battle (I rarely lose ALL my mm pets, and never ever all at once, just "poof" they're dead.). 

 

Also, and this isn't nearly as vital, but group fly on MM pets is still not working.  They drop out of the sky if I get ahead, and I do just by moving. I really don't care about this as much as every single pet dying when I ding a new level.  That's just nuts and has to be some kind of bug or weirdo thing that can be fixed. Even all buffed up with the ding buffs, a level 30 (now 31) MM with no pets is pretty much useless, right?  Please fix this.  (and then maybe later think about maybe making group fly more viable for MMs?).

 

 

[srmalloy]

9 hours ago, Tahliah said:

I was in a mission and dinged a new level right in the middle of a battle . . . and all my pets died.

Normally, going up a level has no effect on your pets, but i know of one specific corner case that may be the cause of this. Were you in a higher level team sidekicked to 31? If you lose your sidekick, your pets die (a measure to prevent exploits like having a 50 invite your level 1 to team, let you summon your (three) tier 1 pets as level 49, and then kick you, leaving you with three level 49 pets doing starting content).

 

Where this breaks is when you are two levels below the team lead, sidekicking you to -1 to them, and ding. Because you are now legitimately -1 to the team leader, sidekicking doesn't help you any more, so the sidekick drops automatically -- which triggers the pet-reaping code, and all your pets die.

[Tahliah]

Hmm, @srmalloy, we were all pretty close in levels.  The team leader was lvl 31, and I was lvl 30.  When I dinged lvl 31, all my pets poofed.  I ran away up the tunnel to respawn my pets (and to gripe in chat about the sitch). 

 

I've been playing MMs since the very beginning of their introduction to the game, and I have NEVER had them all die just because I leveled.  The only time they all die at one time is when I die. And I didn't in this instance.  Something is wrong.

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 hour ago, Tahliah said:

Hmm, @srmalloy, we were all pretty close in levels.  The team leader was lvl 31, and I was lvl 30.  When I dinged lvl 31, all my pets poofed.  I ran away up the tunnel to respawn my pets (and to gripe in chat about the sitch). 

 

I've been playing MMs since the very beginning of their introduction to the game, and I have NEVER had them all die just because I leveled.  The only time they all die at one time is when I die. And I didn't in this instance.  Something is wrong.

No, what @srmalloy said is correct and likely what happened. I have had this happen to me on multiple occasions. You had a level shift occur that changed in line with the leader's level range which then caused your pets to die and need to be resummoned. 

[Tahliah]

On 4/4/2021 at 7:54 PM, TygerDarkstorm said:

No, what @srmalloy said is correct and likely what happened. I have had this happen to me on multiple occasions. You had a level shift occur that changed in line with the leader's level range which then caused your pets to die and need to be resummoned. 

What?  You've had all your MM pets die in the midst of a battle because you dinged a new level and . . . um, think this is good?

 

Again, this is not good.  My MM pets should never ALL "poof" because a new level has been achieved, that's insanity.  It's not normal, and it's not okay.

 

If this is some sort of 'normal' that I have never experienced (running scores of MMs over the years and NEVER experiencing this until the other night), then it has to be fixed.  What other AT loses its main damage powers on leveling?  Um, none. 

 

Imagine: I'm running a fire/fire blaster, I level, and suddenly have no access to any of my fire blasts or mitigations!  Oh, what a bummer, happens to me all the time, too!  Just avoid leveling on teams and stuff to keep your powers.  Seriously?!?

[TygerDarkstorm]

8 hours ago, Tahliah said:

What?  You've had all your MM pets die in the midst of a battle because you dinged a new level and . . . um, think this is good?

 

Again, this is not good.  My MM pets should never ALL "poof" because a new level has been achieved, that's insanity.  It's not normal, and it's not okay.

 

If this is some sort of 'normal' that I have never experienced (running scores of MMs over the years and NEVER experiencing this until the other night), then it has to be fixed.  What other AT loses its main damage powers on leveling?  Um, none. 

 

Imagine: I'm running a fire/fire blaster, I level, and suddenly have no access to any of my fire blasts or mitigations!  Oh, what a bummer, happens to me all the time, too!  Just avoid leveling on teams and stuff to keep your powers.  Seriously?!?

I never said whether it was good or bad. I said that it appears to be working as intended and that @srmalloy was not wrong. Their post illustrates the reasons why such a thing occurs.

 

I rarely have it happen while I'm teaming, but that's because I rarely join teams with my MM's where the leader's (or my own) level shifts would affect me. But that reason is why I never summon my pets until after I join a team or TF/SF and accept the potential level shift that may occur, otherwise any pets I had out would die and I would need to resummon and rebuff them. And any time I leave such a team, my pets die because now my level shifted again outside of the range they were at.

 

No other AT has, essentially, "free" passive damage the way MM's do. We are the only AT to do ~95% of our damage passively via pets, so yes, there are limitations set in the game to try and keep that from becoming "OP." One such limitation is that certain level shift situations will cause all the pets to die and need to be resummoned.

 

Is it ideal? Eh, maybe not. I imagine it does suck having it happen if you're in the middle of combat, but pet deaths in combat are something MM's have to worry about anyway.

 

Regardless, you have this posted as a bug when it is not, which is sort of the main counterpoint at this stage. Whether it's good design or not is not the point, not here in this thread and this section of the forums. This feature is not a bug and is working as intended--for better or worse.

[TheZag]

MMs are getting some tweaks in the upcoming patch with an additional note that its a quick adjustment and they hope for an in depth MM review sometime later.

 

But since this is intended behavior, even if it sucks, head over to the suggestion forum and recommend that MM pets dont die when going from a sidekicked to non-sidekicked state upon level up.

 

And im not at home to check ingame,  but i think the patch that changes group fly to affect pets regardless of range hasnt made it to the live servers yet.

[srmalloy]

31 minutes ago, TheZag said:

But since this is intended behavior, even if it sucks, head over to the suggestion forum and recommend that MM pets dont die when going from a sidekicked to non-sidekicked state upon level up.

No. MM pets shouldn't die if the MM levels in the specific case of their sidekick status dropping because they've become too high level for the sidekick functionality to affect them. If you don't kill MM pets when the sidekick drops for other reasons, this creates an exploit where a level 1 MM can team with a level 50, sidekicking them to 49, then summon their tier 1 pet -- which summons three, all level 47 -- then quit the team, reverting them to level 1, but leaving them with three level 47 pets to run missions with. This will steamroller any content they face until they log out -- and since being in your base or another instance protects you against being logged out for inactivity, you'll only need to find another 50 to momentarily join to re-up your pets if there's a server reset.

[TheZag]

Apologies as i wasnt clear enough.  The only way to go from a sk to non-sk state during a level up is while on a team unless im not thinking of something.  Im still totally on board with pets getting nuked for your sk status changing for reasons other than a level up.  I also have no idea if thats even possible for the game to differentiate between the two but it would be nice if its possible.

[Arbegla]

Pets die when you're sidekicked/Exemplared/flashbacking and have always died that way.

 

Do the Ouro Pilgrim mission on either side as a MM, and your pets will die at least twice, possibly even four times. Its annoying, but I understand why they did it.

[Tahliah]

Thanks for everyone's input.  I am not talking about my MM pets dying when a new leader / mission / tf is chosen, I am talking about ALL my MM pets dying simply because I dinged a new level INSIDE a mish DURING a battle. I have never seen this before (ever, no matter the level disparities or whatever you guys have said), and I think it's very wrong, maybe not a "bug" per se, but it's something that has to be fixed.

 

We were all pretty much the same level when we entered the mish, though the team leader was one level above me (he was 31, I was 30). When I dinged 31, all my pets died at the same time--poof.  That's not normal. 

 

As I've stated, I've run MMs since they were first introduced on live, and I have never had all my pets die when I ding a new level.  Yes, they die when the team takes a new leader or when you start a tf (or whatever), but they do not die when you level.  I've been the lowbie MM on teams her the leader was lvl 50 to my teens toon, and when I level, I never lose all my pets.  In fact, as I keep saying, I have never lost all my MM pets on leveling.   Until this time.

[Wavicle]

People have explained already why it is unlikely to be changed even though, I agree, it sucks.

To be specific about something someone alluded to:

In the next content patch MM summons are having their cooldowns, endurance costs, and (in some cases) cast times all slashed heavily.

[srmalloy]

It would be a nice QoL upgrade if pet powers were made 'smart' using a derivative of the code that handles sidekick/exemplar status -- you rise in level, either by dinging or a change in leader, and your pets' level goes up in parallel. Go down in level, and your pets decrease with you -- although this is complicated by the need to desummon pets you no longer have the power for (i.e., below 21 for the tier-3 pet), and the number of tier-1 and tier-2 pets may need to be reduced. But I don't know if the code would support making a change like that without serious unwinding of the spaghetti code behind the façade.

[Tahliah]

On 4/11/2021 at 11:34 PM, Wavicle said:

People have explained already why it is unlikely to be changed even though, I agree, it sucks.

To be specific about something someone alluded to:

In the next content patch MM summons are having their cooldowns, endurance costs, and (in some cases) cast times all slashed heavily.

This is ridiculous.  Why should I have to resummon every pet just because I leveled?  That makes zero sense, and no, no one has explained it to my satisfaction. Sure, if every AT LOST their key powers on leveling, fine.  We're all in the same sucky boat, but as is, ONLY MMs lose their pets (i.e. their only real powers for damage).  Let's strip blasters of their key powers on leveling!  Let's denude tanks of their tankiness upon leveling!  Oooh, and while we're at it, let's deprive all defense toons of their powers because they leveled to the same level as their team lead!   Crazy?  Yeah, but at least it would be fair.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Tahliah said:

This is ridiculous.  Why should I have to resummon every pet just because I leveled?  That makes zero sense, and no, no one has explained it to my satisfaction. Sure, if every AT LOST their key powers on leveling, fine.  We're all in the same sucky boat, but as is, ONLY MMs lose their pets (i.e. their only real powers for damage).  Let's strip blasters of their key powers on leveling!  Let's denude tanks of their tankiness upon leveling!  Oooh, and while we're at it, let's deprive all defense toons of their powers because they leveled to the same level as their team lead!   Crazy?  Yeah, but at least it would be fair.

It’s a technical issue. It’s not a rule. In most cases you don’t, you happened to be at a specific point in a specific team set up that screwed you over. It’s a bummer but I don’t know how they would fix it. No one is conspiring against you though.

[srmalloy]

On 4/17/2021 at 6:14 PM, Wavicle said:

It’s a bummer but I don’t know how they would fix it.

There is code that checks, when a sidekicked player dings a new level, whether the sidekick status should be terminated. The sidekick termination code automatically reaps the character's pets, to prevent the exploit of sidekicking to a 50, summoning your pets, quitting, and then running around with level 49 pets. What needs to be done is to have the sidekick termination code look at the before and after levels of the character, and if they're the same, not reap the pets.

[SuperBear]

On 4/11/2021 at 11:44 PM, Tahliah said:

We were all pretty much the same level when we entered the mish, though the team leader was one level above me (he was 31, I was 30). When I dinged 31, all my pets died at the same time--poof.  That's not normal. 

 

I agree, it sucks, but I can confirm it has been happening and I have experienced it first-hand on MANY masterminds. Working as intended to avoid the exploit.

Edited April 20, 2021 by damienray

[Tahliah]

On 4/17/2021 at 8:14 PM, Wavicle said:

It’s a technical issue. It’s not a rule. In most cases you don’t, you happened to be at a specific point in a specific team set up that screwed you over. It’s a bummer but I don’t know how they would fix it. No one is conspiring against you though.

Hee, the no one is conspiring against you though made me laugh  Thanks!

 

I do know that, silly boots, but at the same time, what toon do you run that literally loses its viability upon leveling? In the middle of a battle?

 

Is it really crazy to think that I can get through an entire battle/mish with my pets not freaking ALL poof-dying at once? 

[Wavicle]

Just now, Tahliah said:

Hee, the no one is conspiring against you though made me laugh  Thanks!

 

I do know that, silly boots, but at the same time, what toon do you run that literally loses its viability upon leveling? In the middle of a battle?

 

Is it really crazy to think that I can get through an entire battle/mish with my pets not freaking ALL poof-dying at once? 

It only happens to me very rarely. If it’s happening a lot I’m not sure what’s going on.

[Tahliah]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It only happens to me very rarely. If it’s happening a lot I’m not sure what’s going on.

Um, it only happened to me that once, too.  I was horrified to find myself completely unable to support my team or do anything (but run away and recast my pets).  Through no fault of my own.  This should NEVER happen is my point.  Oh, gee, that one time we almost defeated X, but then that damned MM dinged a level, all pets died, and well, we just had t do it over.  Or in other cases, that MM was tanking great, until he dinged new level, and the team wiped.

 

This is a STUPID function and must be fixed.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Tahliah said:

I was horrified to find myself completely unable to support my team

What happened to your Secondary?

[RogerWilco]

On 4/12/2021 at 5:44 AM, Tahliah said:

We were all pretty much the same level when we entered the mish, though the team leader was one level above me (he was 31, I was 30). When I dinged 31, all my pets died at the same time--poof.  That's not normal.

If I understand the comments above, the issue should happen if your team leader dinged up to 32, and then you got 31 after that.

People seem to assume that is what happened, but nobody explicitly stated that, so it could still be a bug as well.

It seems that in that case it is working as intended, although you can argue that it is overly broad in its attempt to prevent the exploit, and should have an extra check added, or some other change made. Personally, I think it should never reap your pets as long as they are lower level than you.

 

We usually make the MM our team leader, as otherwise the whole pets dying and re-summoning gets really tedious really fast.

Edited April 22, 2021 by RogerWilco

[Tahliah]

On 4/22/2021 at 8:05 AM, RogerWilco said:

If I understand the comments above, the issue should happen if your team leader dinged up to 32, and then you got 31 after that.

People seem to assume that is what happened, but nobody explicitly stated that, so it could still be a bug as well.

It seems that in that case it is working as intended, although you can argue that it is overly broad in its attempt to prevent the exploit, and should have an extra check added, or some other change made. Personally, I think it should never reap your pets as long as they are lower level than you.

 

We usually make the MM our team leader, as otherwise the whole pets dying and re-summoning gets really tedious really fast.

No, the team leader didn't ding a new level, just me.  All my pets died in the middle of a battle (when I dinged), so I just ran away.  Luckily, I could get away and not die and pile up death debt through no fault of my own.  After all, if I was on my blaster and dinged a new level, I wouldn't have the same punch, but I'd at least have my powers. 

 

To all:  Sorry, no one is going to convince me that completely stripping an MM of powers on level is a good thing.  It may be the way things work or whatever, but it's NOT the way things work for any other AT.  No other AT has their powers literally "poof" when they gain a level, and it should not happen for MMs.  Leave them at the lower level, as the newly leveled blaster or tank is, but don't completely remove the MMs powers. 

 

Again, mechanics be damned, this is about playing the game.  I can play with my newly-leveled blaster who just had all her enh go red; I cannot play my MM when all my pets literally disappear in the second it takes me to ding.  FIX THIS. It is NOT okay, it is not excusable, it is not "built in" to the mechanics, or if it is, this thinking is crazy and unacceptable.  What other AT has their entire offensive/defensive powers DISAPPEAR on leveling? Right, none.  Fix this.

[Tahliah]

On 4/21/2021 at 3:22 PM, Wavicle said:

What happened to your Secondary?

Secondary seemed to be fine, so I could nature the hell out of the team but not do any damage or control mobs Or function AS AN MM.  If I wanted to run a support toon, I would (and in fact, do, but even my supports have defensive and offensive powers that don't disappear when I ding a new level). So yeah, I could still use my secondary, but how happy would you be to learn that once you ding a new level you are stuck with only your secondary powers because all your primary powers went grey?  So happy, right?  But yeah, I should have just stood there and natured at my teammates because that's what MMs do.  Hmph!

[srmalloy]

On 4/22/2021 at 6:05 AM, RogerWilco said:

It seems that in that case it is working as intended, although you can argue that it is overly broad in its attempt to prevent the exploit, and should have an extra check added, or some other change made.

Ideally, what would be done is to add a second check to the sidekick code so that, when the "sidekick termination" trigger goes off, it checks "did the character level go down?", and iff (if and only if) the second check returns true does the pet reaper code get called.