Focused Feedback: Pool Powerset Revamp: Sorcery

[Puma]

16 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

That is not how that works. Passive resistance powers dont accept recharge enhancements either, and you can slot Damage Resistance IOs on them too.

 

This simply means you cant slot a simple Recharge TO/DO/SO or crafted IO into the power, simply because on it's own it does nothing for the user. Set enhancements can be slotted even if they only offer recharge, because those add up value via set bonuses.

Yeah.  You can waste precious slotting by slotting with IOs that actually dont offer the recharge buff that is part of that IO if you really want the set bonus. 
 
Which is a really dumb way to design powers for a game.   

[Captain Powerhouse]

1 minute ago, Puma said:

Which is a really dumb way to design powers for a game.   

 

OK, I'll change all Resistance passives in the game to allow Recharge enhancements...

[Bionic_Flea]

[Troo]

1 minute ago, Puma said:

Which is a really dumb way to design powers for a game. 

 

How about: 'could be confusing and less than ideal'

[Captain Powerhouse]

Just now, Troo said:

How about: 'could be confusing and less than ideal'

 

Better take is that it is a minor flaw or concession in the design of some IO category enhancement sets to simply allow flexibility of the set in powers that can actually make use of the recharge provided. Else it would require a whole bunch of enhancement categories that only apply to resist toggles, or resist passives, ones that cost no end, or ignore recharge, or have zero recharge, or what not.

 

End of the day, if there is a flaw, its in the design of the enhancement set. Personally I prefer to think the live team called it a concession.

[Puma]

14 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

With SG mates that simply don’t possess the amount of time to play this game that I do, I spend quite a bit of time on in PUGs and let me go assure you that the majority of the playerbase (on Excelsior) does not conform to the “Proc everything to death” theory. The “health of the population pool” is far more casual than you think.😉

 

 

Sorry for the derail, so we now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

And sadly, for me, even more casual because I'm being turned off by the changes being made and finding myself wandering to other places.


Which I decidedly do NOT want. HC is my home at heart, but I'm finding these changes over the last few pages really making me have more fun elsewhere. 

Which sucks...because I want to play here, with the people I've been playing with for years.  

[Arbegla]

10 minutes ago, Puma said:

Yeah.  You can waste precious slotting by slotting with IOs that actually dont offer the recharge buff that is part of that IO if you really want the set bonus. 
 
Which is a really dumb way to design powers for a game.   

 

I mean, without the snark, there are TONS of passives that let you slot things that don't actually benefit them (Endurance Reduction, Recharge..) Its actually a perfectly Inclusive way to design powers for a game.

Or do you want powers to very strictly follow ONLY the enhancements that benefit them? For example, slotting Acc in autohit powers, or Recharge in MM pet powers? Even from Double/Triple/Quad IOs. 

[Puma]

20 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Better take is that it is a minor flaw or concession in the design of some IO category enhancement sets to simply allow flexibility of the set in powers that can actually make use of the recharge provided. Else it would require a whole bunch of enhancement categories that only apply to resist toggles, or resist passives, ones that cost no end, or ignore recharge, or have zero recharge, or what not.

 

End of the day, if there is a flaw, its in the design of the enhancement set. Personally I prefer to think the live team called it a concession.

I disagree. The flaw is in your altering a power that IS affected by recharge (and people build around that to make it a worthwhile choice) to be unaffected by recharge because you think it's overpowered for some reason.  

THAT is the problem here.  You're taking a power that currently ISN'T "broken" enough for most players to even bother to take it, and the people who did built high recharge builds to make the power actually useful, and making it so their builds are now pointless and the power isn't any better, and arguably worse.  You are, quite literally, breaking something that is fine in the name of "fixing" something that is broken.  

And no matter how many of us here ask you why, and who use the power telling you that they AREN'T somehow finding the power to be overpowered as is, you're just sort of...doing it anyway.  

Cool.   I mean, that's your choice. But this is my feedback.  It's the wrong move.  As with many of the other changes...it's just pushing everything and every build back to bland homogeny to increase grind in a 15 year old game where the grind isn't why people are logging in the first place.  

So back to squishies building for exclusively for ranged defense and recharge, etc.  Awesome.  

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Puma

[UberGuy]

Let's face it. We're only talking about the slotting aspect because the power used to benefit from recharge and now might not.

 

If this power had existed like this since before we had multi-aspect enhancements and they were being added now, it wouldn't get much air time. I know, because, as @Arbegla points out, it happened before, and I was there for it.

[ZeroXephon]

Well the Rune changes just screwed pretty much all my builds and made it a very situational "oh shit" press that I will now almost never use.  Yay..... *tosses it into the trash bin with the rest of the origin powers* 

[Bionic_Flea]

While I agree that Rune is not so overpowered that it needs a nerf, to be fair there are many powers that take IOs that can't benefit from certain set IO enhancements.  Just about every auto power fits that description.

 

[Troo]

8 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

respecs don't encompass incarnates

 

There is a fair point being made here.

[Puma]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

While I agree that Rune is not so overpowered that it needs a nerf, to be fair there are many powers that take IOs that can't benefit from certain set IO enhancements.  Just about every auto power fits that description.

 

So we want to make Rune of Protection an auto-power?

Im in!  😛

Edited April 7, 2021 by Puma

[Arbegla]

Call me crazy, but I'm really beginning to think that out of the 5% of people who actually took Sorcery (for therefore RoP) 100% of them maxed out recharge to get near immunity to Mez Protection, via RoP and chaining other powers together. Completely negating an entire aspect of the game that they should have had to worry about.

 

Which, was never the intention of how RoP should have been used. If your character doesn't have inherent Mez Protection, even from an Epic Power Pool, it shouldn't be able to get it via an Origin Power Pool that everyone can access.

 

Squishies should have to worry about Mez. Its really that simple.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Arbegla

[Puma]

11 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Call me crazy, but I'm really beginning to think that out of the 5% of people who actually took Sorcery (for therefore RoP) 100% of them maxed out recharge to get near immunity to Mez Protection, via RoP and chaining other powers together. Completely negating an entire aspect of the game that they should have had to worry about.

 

Which, was never the intention of how RoP should have been used. If your character doesn't have inherent Mez Protection, even from an Epic Power Pool, it shouldn't be able to get it via an Origin Power Pool that everyone can access. Its really that simple.

 

Squishies should have to worry about Mez. Its really that simple.

No, it's not that simple at all.

You can build a controller that can reach permanent defense caps, even though  that is usually in the realm of melee toons only. How?  By designing a build around it and sacrificing damage, or recharge, or debuffs, etc. to get defense bonuses, and adding in defensive pool powers like leadership, combat jumping etc. and adding in incarnate powers.  This is actually the -most- powerful buff any character in game can get: when you aren't getting hit, you aren't getting mezzed. You aren't getting debuffed. You aren't getting hurt. 

You can NEVER add enough recharge to get the live version of to make RoP perma.  And slotting it for recharge to make it available more often comes at the same "sacrificing" damage or debuffs or regen, etc. that the controller above sacrifices for defense.   And taking multiple powers from that specific travel pool before you can. 
 
Squishies SHOULD have to worry about Mez.  And you know what?  That's EXACTLY why a squishy would take RoP and slot for recharge and global recharge buffs.  To deal with that worry...in the same way the controller above is "worrying" about defense.   

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Puma

[Galaxy Brain]

41 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

I realize some dislike the term 'combo mechanic'. It is what it is.

Don't get me started on the now obvious exploit to trigger this latest combo mechanic.

 

Haha, fair enough! In this case it is not strictly a combo like with EM though, maybe a better catch-all term? 

[Arbegla]

5 minutes ago, Puma said:

You can NEVER add enough recharge to get the live version of to make RoP perma.  And slotting it for recharge to make it available more often comes at the same "sacrificing" damage or debuffs or regen, etc. that the controller above sacrifices for defense.   
 
Squishies SHOULD have to worry about Mez.  And you know what?  That's EXACTLY why a squishy would take RoP and slot for recharge and global recharge buffs.  To deal with that worry...in the same way the controller above is "worrying" about defense.  

 

A controller with softcapped Def is still vulnerable to -defense attacks, and cascading failures. They have zero DDR, and No way to get it. So, while its a durable build, its not pure immunity, and there is HUGE holes within the build that cause significant issues.

 

While you are right that you can not perma RoP itself, you can perma the mez protection, but chaining RoP with Clarion, and/or the Melee Judgement will give you permanent Mez Protection, available to literally every single AT in the game. And that is what makes it really that simple.

[Bionic_Flea]

8 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

They have zero DDR, and No way to get it.

Incorrect.  Agility Ageless Radial has DDR.

 

Edit: Sorry wrong I-power starting with the letter 'A'

Edited April 7, 2021 by Bionic_Flea

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Incorrect.  Agility Radial has DDR.

 

I don't have access to the game (or City of Data 2.0) but the wiki doesn't show any DDR (Defense Debuff Resistance) being provided by Agility.

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Agility_Radial_Paragon

[Dythok]

4 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Incorrect.  Agility Radial has DDR.

I believe he meant Ageless Radial, the Destiny power, not the Alpha.

[Troo]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Haha, fair enough! In this case it is not strictly a combo like with EM though, maybe a better catch-all term? 

 

Yep.

 

Buildup is a combo mechanic.. it already exists and no one will see me complain about using it.

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Troo

[Bionic_Flea]

Sorry, yes, Ageless not Agility.  I confuse those two too often.

 

[Puma]

11 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

A controller with softcapped Def is still vulnerable to -defense attacks, and cascading failures. They have zero DDR, and No way to get it. So, while its a durable build, its not pure immunity, and there is HUGE holes within the build that cause significant issues.

 

While you are right that you can not perma RoP itself, you can perma the mez protection, but chaining RoP with Clarion, and/or the Melee Judgement will give you permanent Mez Protection, available to literally every single AT in the game. And that is what makes it really that simple.

Wait...if we're adding in incarnate powers then you have to add in Ageless and Barrier to your "limitations" to the controller example. 

So no...it's really not that simple. 

Yes.  A person who
A:  Takes the sorcery pool and sacrifices at least three powers choices to get RoP 
B:  Takes other powers that add to their recharge
C.:  Takes enough defense powers to slot 5 LoTGs for recharge boosts
D.: works the rest of their IO sets to add recharge 
E: Unlocks all incarnate powers and slots two very specific ones
COULD THEORETICALLY work it so they're permanently at the mez protection cap with enough micromanaging. But...honestly...between Clarion and melee hybrid you'd be there anyway for 95% or more of the game. 

But anyway, meanwhile a controller who
A:  Takes pool powers that grant defense (like Combat Jumping, Maneuvers, and weave)
B:  Takes other powers that add to their defense
C.:  Takes powers that allow set bonuses for defense
D.: takes a defense based APP/PP
E: Unlocks all incarnate powers and slots two very specific ones like Barrier or Melee or Support hybrids 
Could THEORETICALLY work it so they're permanently at the defense cap even when facing enemies who debuff defense with some micromanaging.


And you know what?  Both deserve it.  Because the person worked their butt off and made sacrifices to get there to shore up their weaknesses, and there will always be SOME enemies where it won't matter because their attacks are unresistable anyway.  

Edited April 7, 2021 by Puma

[SwitchFade]

31 minutes ago, Puma said:

I disagree. The flaw is in your altering a power that IS affected by recharge (and people build around that to make it a worthwhile choice) to be unaffected by recharge because you think it's overpowered for some reason.  

THAT is the problem here.  You're taking a power that currently ISN'T "broken" enough for most players to even bother to take it, and the people who did built high recharge builds to make the power actually useful, and making it so their builds are now pointless and the power isn't any better, and arguably worse.  You are, quite literally, breaking something that is fine in the name of "fixing" something that is broken.  

And no matter how many of us here ask you why, and who use the power telling you that they AREN'T somehow finding the power to be overpowered as is, you're just sort of...doing it anyway.  

Cool.   I mean, that's your choice. But this is my feedback.  It's the wrong move.  As with many of the other changes...it's just pushing everything and every build back to bland homogeny to increase grind in a 15 year old game where the grind isn't why people are logging in the first place.  

So back to squishies building for exclusively for ranged defense and recharge, etc.  Awesome.  

 

I disagree with your disagreement.

[Bionic_Flea]

Or you could be a Force Field or Sonic Resonance Controller and avoid all mez but sleep from level 20 on.