Bots/Kin: why will it be bad?

[DarknessEternal]

I've exclusively played solo oriented stuff, but I want to make a guy who can help out other people now.  I've always liked the idea of Kinetics, but never did anything with it.  Also, robots are just cool.

 

But why would this combination be very bad?  I don't know that it will, I just don't need to be sold on the positives.  So I'm looking for the things I don't understand about Masterminds, Bots, Kinetics, and the combination thereof.

 

Help a tinker out.

[TygerDarkstorm]

The main thing that comes to mind is that bots are ranged and /kin has a tendency to want to play in melee, so getting your powers to hit you and your bots could be a challenge, but I feel like use of the MM binds to position the bots near you or something could make it manageable. Only other thing I can think of is that slots are tight on bots, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with /kin.

 

I'm sure those far more knowledgeable than myself might have other/better reasons. Bots with the zoomies seems amusing if the sets can be made to work together. If you're not set on bots, beasts/kin is a pretty fun MM combo.

[kelika2]

Softcapped pets are happy pets, while bots have some innate resist and def with a splash of healing you really need to bump it up with your secondary.  While ID will cover their smashing and energy holes it might not be enough

 

Pets are not effected by changes (negative or positive) in Recharge.  Your speed boost will help them run faster and regen some end, but their recharge will be uneffected

 

Once you get Fulcrum Shift, your team will be slaughtering power houses that will not wait for your bots to finish animating their long attacks

 

Stacking Siphon Power on your bots isnt as big as a damage boost as you think its going to be.

 

If you team a lot, you may or may not notice it.  other peoples buffs and debuffs can help your pets stay alive.  Sorry for Enter Keys

[DreadShinobi]

Kinetics for MMs works best with demons or beasts imo. Demons have some insane force multiplier potential including good personal attacks to take advantage of being at the damage cap yourself. Once youre at the damage cap only procs and -res can deliver more damage. Both the personal attacks and some demon pet attacks cause -res. Demon/kin works very similarly to a kin/sonic defender as a dual force multiplier, but with alot more damage output. Lash is incredible with 5-6 damage procs at the damage cap. Beast pets can softcap themselves without secondary assistance so would be the other side of functioning compared to demon/kin as the more safe and survivable option but with a lower top end performance cap.

 

As mentioned, bots prefer ranged combat, you can pull them into melee with the follow command before you fulcrum shift, but primaries like demon or beasts already function best in melee combat. 

[Sir Myshkin]

4 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

But why would this combination be very bad?

Because frankly it just is, but I find that Kinetics as a whole is superfluous in CoH post i9 anyway. The biggest key aspects that Kinetics brings to a team are damage, endurance, and speed/recharge, and only the damage component here really matters to the Bots.

 

If you’re wanting to stay focused on being a team centered player then you can make the combo work and effectively turn your pets into a suicide squad. With how much recharge Kinetics can generate you’ll never really suffer a great amount of downtime on the bots. Something I tried myself was to grab Whirlwind (you could use Repel, but it’s just not as chaotically enjoyable in the visual department) with a KD converter and just run amok through spawns to pull attention on you while in Bodyguard mode and let the Bots do their thing at damage cap. Basically you’re a short order Defender with an on-call hit squad and this is the real shortcoming of the combo. The largest contributor in your arsenal will end up being Fulcrum Shift, but late game folks are already obscenely powered so it’s like “eh”. It won’t be the case all the time, no, but my experience ended up that I found a better life for the character exemplaring with it after 50 than continuing to do 50 content. Kinetics is a great set to level up with in teams, but a lousy set to have in the end game (in my opinion), and is one that is rarely seen post 50.

 

And for the record of the court, the reason I know the above is because I have a Bots/Kin. I rolled one when Homecoming went up in 2019 because it was a good support build to help teams get going in a non IO reality of those first six months. Eventually the character got shelved and only came out for an occasional TF or MSR, but now it just collects dust.

[The_Warpact]

Simple answer Bots are ranged and Kin isn't. Bots are better off with a Def set imo. 

[Maelwys]

It's not that bad.

Sure, Kin likes Melee and Bots like Ranged. But you'd only need the bots to run into the middle of each mob once every 45 seconds; and it's not the end of the world if you don't like micromanaging pet positioning.

The way Fulcrum Shift works is that it applies two PBAoE damage buffs- one centred on YOU (+30% damage for 45s) and the other centered on YOUR TARGET. (One stack of +15% damage for 45s is applied for every enemy that is within the effect radius). So if you stay back beside your bots and use Fulcrum Shift on a big group of foes, then the bots will get +30% damage and any melee teammates near the foes will get the multiple stacks of +15% damage.

The good thing about ranged pets is that they annoy allies much less and don't care as much about enemy runners. Bots are also easy to softcap due to the Protector Bot's bubbles (7.5-12% Defence per bubble depending on slotting. 1x goes on you and each Protector Bots, 2x goes on the Drones and the AssBot) and their main damage type (energy) is relatively rarely resisted. Their animations are LONG though, and you'll typically want to slot KB->KD IOs in them and get some kind of AoE CC (Patron immobilises or Bonfire with KB->KD works a treat) to counteract things fleeing from AssBot's Missile Burn Patches. In optimised endgame teamups you'll be relying on your primary much less than your secondary during "everyone charge to the next mob ASAP" map clears, so don't worry overly if the pets get left behind to mop up stragglers. Against AVs or GMs, they'll work a bit better. And it's always worth at least using a non-upgraded AssBot for its "Plasma Blast" -regen debuffs if nothing else.

I will say that when you IO it up, any /kin MM is a total soloing MONSTER. Absolutely ploughs through entire mapfuls of purples. The main prerequisite is getting your defences up first though - bot/ is easy to Softcap, and its pet inherent resistances mesh extremely well with "Increase Density". A typical IO build brings your pets to North of 60-65% Resistance to S/L/C/P and 35% to F/N/T, and 50%+ defence; with Transfusion recovering over 850HP to everything every few seconds.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Maelwys

[JJDrakken]

/Kin Masterminds are annoying, period. You literally gave Crack Cocaine mixed with can of Coke on top of it to your already ADHD Mentally Handicapped Pets.  Now they are doing it at super speeds, so they run 300 miles one direction before realizing they need to run back to mob, while they did this. The other mobs are like oh hey...lets follow that guy and see what's going on.  Heaven forbid Caltrops or something is tossed on the ground. They will then run all over entire map screaming bloody murder about it, before running back cuz and realizing that stuff is still out and repeat the process.  All of this because of Kinetics, lol.

Edited April 23, 2023 by JJDrakken

[Maelwys]

Which is why you only use Siphon Speed or Speed Boost on your pets if you're a masochist.
Transfusion is plenty to keep their Endurance topped up, should you not manage to make their slotting self-sufficient.

Also, Ranged MM Primaries (e.g. Robots) become remarkably well behaved if you take Group Fly and float *above* the mob. Takes a little getting used to for positioning purposes with Fulcrum Shift, but it tends to prevent your little blighters from flying into a panic should a few caltrops or a dead rikti monkey suddenly appear anywhere on the same map.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Maelwys