Allow more pool selections

[Greycat]

39 minutes ago, arcane said:

They either do take them and use them already or the only reason they don’t is the squeeze to fit defense and LotG’s. Most people make do with SS/CJ for that latter reason alone. And you can stop mentioning PvP. You can Jaunt about in PvE too if you’re a good enough player to forego Fighting or Leadership once in awhile.

 

The only reason travel powers are not used more as combat assets is because players are uncomfortable surviving without Weave and Maneuvers. That does not mean they are not assets in combat.

 

This is an aside, but ... "once in a while?" Since when does Fighting or Leadership (the power pool, not the actual ability) determine if you're a "good player" or not? Neither are required. Play without them. I can guarantee people will get to 1-50 just fine.

 

... and of course if you don't need them, it does kind of mitigate the desire for yet another power pool, so it circles on back to the thread in any case. ;)

[Greycat]

6 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

 

I wonder what a janky "ALL pools!" build would look like, where someone tried to go all in on as many pools as possible, to the detriment of everything else. Weak attacks for sure, but being able to do a little bit of everything sounds like it might be fun 😃

 

"Pool boy" builds have been a thing since live. Never did it myself, but they are around.

[arcane]

17 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

This is an aside, but ... "once in a while?" Since when does Fighting or Leadership (the power pool, not the actual ability) determine if you're a "good player" or not? Neither are required. Play without them. I can guarantee people will get to 1-50 just fine.

 

... and of course if you don't need them, it does kind of mitigate the desire for yet another power pool, so it circles on back to the thread in any case. 😉

I’m not saying anything beyond the fact that some people view the defense and LotG’s as far too critical to ever try anything else. I’m not saying that you’re a bad player if you insist on building that way every time. You’re only a bad player if you do so specifically because you don’t think you can survive without them. 

 

46 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

I am curious to hear more about this.

 

I've only used Combat Teleport in active combat (I love it) but I don't consider this a "travel power" per say. Its possible that this is another layer worth discussion: "What is a travel power?" to make sure we aren't missing something; really what powers are tagged as such in game. Power creep can come from power employment and not necessarily from IO slotting.

 

SS+Repel/KD powers is one combo I know of that can be used to mitigate damage effectively. I suspect both of these are aggressive active playstyles that also doesn't appeal to some players or may be difficult to use.

 

Best example by far of travel as an in combat asset is obviously the fact that Fly/Mystic Flight are the best melee defense powers in the game. After that the differences are far more incremental. Like quicker and easier kiting/dodging/escaping. Or like the fact that you can save a few seconds gathering mobs by jaunting between them rather than running between them. Every second you don’t spend in between fights is a boost to your character’s DPS and clear times.

Edited June 6, 2021 by arcane

[aethereal]

59 minutes ago, arcane said:

They either do take them and use them already or the only reason they don’t is the squeeze to fit defense and LotG’s. Most people make do with SS/CJ for that latter reason alone. And you can stop mentioning PvP. You can Jaunt about in PvE too if you’re a good enough player to forego Fighting or Leadership once in awhile.

 

The only reason travel powers are not used more as combat assets is because players are uncomfortable surviving without Weave and Maneuvers. That does not mean they are not assets in combat.

 

If anyone wants to use Superspeed, they already are invested in that pool, they can get it.  If anyone wants to get Superjump, they are already invested in the pool, they can get it (but they don't, because it's mutually exclusive with Combat Jumping).  If anyone wants to get Flight, they can use Hover instead of Combat Jumping (and some do) and they can get it (but they don't , because it's mutually exclusive with Hover and Hover is superior for combat purposes).

 

So the upshot of the proposed change is that if someone wants to get Teleport, they can do so without a problem.  It seems deeply unlikely to me that people will find it worth giving up a power choice for Teleport.  If they do, then that sounds like it adds to the diversity of play experience without probably moving top end power level and that sounds positive, not negative.

 

All that said, I think the benefits of this change are very low and it's not actually worth doing, so this is going to be my last post on the topic.

[aethereal]

26 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

@aethereal ...How are people who take teleport for concept punished by the current system? I mean, you can grab it right at level 6 without prereqs. Do you mean a lack of ability to take certain IOs like Hover and Combat Jumping do?

 

It uses one of your power pool slots for a pool that gives you no defense powers.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, aethereal said:

 

If anyone wants to use Superspeed, they already are invested in that pool, they can get it.  If anyone wants to get Superjump, they are already invested in the pool, they can get it (but they don't, because it's mutually exclusive with Combat Jumping).  If anyone wants to get Flight, they can use Hover instead of Combat Jumping (and some do) and they can get it (but they don't , because it's mutually exclusive with Hover and Hover is superior for combat purposes).

 

So the upshot of the proposed change is that if someone wants to get Teleport, they can do so without a problem.  It seems deeply unlikely to me that people will find it worth giving up a power choice for Teleport.  If they do, then that sounds like it adds to the diversity of play experience without probably moving top end power level and that sounds positive, not negative.

 

All that said, I think the benefits of this change are very low and it's not actually worth doing, so this is going to be my last post on the topic.

We shouldn’t be assuming that players having specific powers already is a given because it’s factually untrue.
 

HOWEVER, yes, most of us will have Hasten.

 

Many will have Combat Jumping too but note there’s no reason that one has to be necessary on a melee with immobilize protection already included. I like the combat mobility so I’ll give it to ya. 
 

Hover instead of Combat Jumping? Lol. I would never think of the two as interchangeable. One gives you mobility, one kills your mobility.

 

Anyway, that’s all moot because, again, you can’t make these assumptions because they are factually not universal.

[arcane]

11 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

It uses one of your power pool slots for a pool that gives you no defense powers.

That’s not a punishment unless you can’t survive without optimized defense. Which is not the best optics for this kind of thread since it calls into question your experience.

 

I’m not saying you are actually a bad player but please reconsider the implications of the bad argument that you just have to have your defense buffs.

Edited June 6, 2021 by arcane

[EmperorSteele]

18 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

It uses one of your power pool slots for a pool that gives you no defense powers.

 

That's what i THOUGHT you meant, but I didn't want to assume.

Just so we're clear, that's not a punishment. It's a choice that has a consequence via opportunity cost. Like, taking Teleport doesn't debuff your character's Damage and ToHit, that would be a punishment! Though if you wanted to get super technical, you could always slot the BotZ set in there and get a little bit of defense, which should soften the blow. Unless you're hung up on slotting 5 LotGs, in which case, that's still not a punishment, it's just an unoptimized choice.

The whole idea behind the Invention system is that it invites us to make odd power choices to get the best bonuses or to maximize those bonuses by getting five of each. It could have done better in this regard: Put all the best Globals into Taunt, Fear and directed/cast Healing powers (ie, cannot go into auto powers like Health), make everyone tempted to take the Presence or Medicine pools. But no, they took the easy way out and put the most useful IOs into Defense, Res, and general Healing (can go into Health which everyone has) sets. Though maybe they considered this and received push-back because no one wanted to be "forced" to take useless powers to get a small recharge bonus?

Personally, if that's what people are so hung up on, I'd probably just Nerf the "Rule of 5" down to "Rule of 3", BUT, increase all the bonuses to compensate. Make an LotG Recharge give 10% instead of 7.5. Being able to slot 3 gives you 30%, where right now it's 35%, so, you'd only be losing out a little, AND, it would free up some power selections since you no longer "had" to take 5 defense powers. No more of this 0.65% defense bonus garbage, give everything a minimum value of 2.5% or something. I dunno, just spitballin' here 😃

[Haijinx]

I mean sure, its really no big deal if people could have 5 or 6 pools.

 

But not everyone needs freaking leadership ...

 

J/S

[GM Crumpet]

This thread seems to be out of control. I'm locking it.