Sentinels. Are they underused?

[Underfyre]

Just now, drbuzzard said:

Personally I found it funny when, a while back, Captain Powerhouse indicated he was extra paranoid about debuffing target resistance because it was too powerful. Now it is powerful in the sense of being a force multiplier, it takes more hits when you are measuring yourself against the hardest stuff (which generates more rewards).

 I mean if you want to punish yourself even more, you can do the math on the effects of a team with the Scrapper and Sentinel swapped. Show what the 15% resist debuff does for a similarly built team. I'd do it, but I'm at work right now.

[drbuzzard]

=

Edited May 17, 2021 by drbuzzard

[drbuzzard]

5 minutes ago, underfyre said:

 I mean if you want to punish yourself even more, you can do the math on the effects of a team with the Scrapper and Sentinel swapped. Show what the 15% resist debuff does for a similarly built team. I'd do it, but I'm at work right now.

I'm way too lazy for that. It's far too complicated to be done in an general sense since you need to make a huge pile of assumptions (are there other debuffs, does opportunity land on a durable enough target to matter, are you fighting a tough target or lots of lackeys?)

[Underfyre]

Just now, drbuzzard said:

I'm way too lazy for that. It's far too complicated to be done in an general sense since you need to make a huge pile of assumptions (are there other debuffs, does opportunity land on a durable enough target to matter, are you fighting a tough target or lots of lackeys?)

 

I'll tackle it later today. I'm just thinking of using the standard 100 damage ability, then spread the AT modifier to each member, then compare having just the Scrapper doin its damage, and having everyone doing more damage from the Sent. Not trying to tie in a million different debuffs, just show the result of total damage done between each AT.

[drbuzzard]

2 minutes ago, underfyre said:

 

I'll tackle it later today. I'm just thinking of using the standard 100 damage ability, then spread the AT modifier to each member, then compare having just the Scrapper doin its damage, and having everyone doing more damage from the Sent. Not trying to tie in a million different debuffs, just show the result of total damage done between each AT.

Clearly a force multiplier will be bigger if you pick a bigger team of damage dealers.

 

Basic damage boosts are (for 50% uptime) is

50 x 1.024 + 50x1.12 = 107.2

Hence about a 7% damage increase for team members.

 

I shudder at having to figure out the math for the scrapper ATOs. Also scrappers aren't even as simple as 1.05 for a damage boost since they get higher crit numbers against non minions much of the time. Also what assumption are you making for the rest of the team? Is it blasters? Defenders? Corrupters? Controllers? Tanks? All of these things will change greatly the damage output value of a scrapper. Honestly, there is simply no simple assumption which is even vaguely valid in a general sense. If you're on a low damage team, that scrapper pulls a very relatively large punch, OTOH on a team full of blasters and one sentinel, you're much better off with the sentinel.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, drbuzzard said:

for even level

Scrapper does 100 x 1.125 x1.05= 118

Sentinel does 100 x .95 x 1.25 = 119

 

for +4

Scrapper 100x1.125x1.05 = 57

Sentinel 100x.95x (1+ (.25x.48) = 51

 

Sentinel starts out ahead if he has opportunity up, but falls behind at top difficulty (which is often where people do the comparisons). This disparity becomes much greater if we throw in the scrapper ATOs which increase the crit rate quite a bit, and can do it in a focused fashion which will favor the best DPA attacks.

Good?

 

Why should a Sentinel ever even equal a Scrapper in damage?  or a Stalker for that matter?  I see in some of the past posts the idea that a Sentinel was supposed to be a ranged Scrapper but if there ever was such a thing what would be the reason to play a melee scrapper then?  And don't anybody even think about bringing up Sentinel hit points because (a) You inherently get some additional survivability just from being able to avoid melee combat when you choose, (b) the convenience of attacking from range,  and (c) I play Stalkers, who have the same hit points, and despite forum wars much longer and bloodier than this one were never allowed to do much if any more damage than Scrappers outside of maybe bursting a single boss.

 

I get that Sentinels might currently be TOO low in damage, but I also get the feeling reading here and from all the comparisons that a lot of people feel it's justified for Sentinels to have at least Scrapper level damage if not something approaching Blasters.

 

Or am I misreading it?

[Underfyre]

1 minute ago, drbuzzard said:

Clearly a force multiplier will be bigger if you pick a bigger team of damage dealers.

 

Basic damage boosts are (for 50% uptime) is

50 x 1.024 + 50x1.12 = 107.2

Hence about a 7% damage increase for team members.

 

I shudder at having to figure out the math for the scrapper ATOs. Also scrappers aren't even as simple as 1.05 for a damage boost since they get higher crit numbers against non minions much of the time. Also what assumption are you making for the rest of the team? Is it blasters? Defenders? Corrupters? Controllers? Tanks? All of these things will change greatly the damage output value of a scrapper. Honestly, there is simply no simple assumption which is even vaguely valid in a general sense. If you're on a low damage team, that scrapper pulls a very relatively large punch, OTOH on a team full of blasters and one sentinel, you're much better off with the sentinel.

 

I'm looking at what I think a team looks like from a classical MMO background. Not what CoH of today thinks a team looks like, but like classic Tank, Heals, Control, DPS kind of thing with just 8 people. Out of spite I'll use a Brute as the tank with 80% rage lol. But like I said, simple math, not looking at every single modifier available to every AT in the group kind of math. Everyone just gets the 1 attack, 100 base scaled by their AT and the ability will use a 100% modifier. Opening attack, so no defiance up, no scourge, no containment, nothing to keep track of. Just scrapper doing its crits and a sentinel that saved its opportunity for the AV.

[drbuzzard]

5 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Good?

 

Why should a Sentinel ever even equal a Scrapper in damage?  or a Stalker for that matter?  I see in some of the past posts the idea that a Sentinel was supposed to be a ranged Scrapper but if there ever was such a thing what would be the reason to play a melee scrapper then?  And don't anybody even think about bringing up Sentinel hit points because (a) You inherently get some additional survivability just from being able to avoid melee combat when you choose, (b) the convenience of attacking from range,  and (c) I play Stalkers, who have the same hit points, and despite forum wars much longer and bloodier than this one were never allowed to do much if any more damage than Scrappers outside of maybe bursting a single boss.

 

I get that Sentinels might currently be TOO low in damage, but I also get the feeling reading here and from all the comparisons that a lot of people feel it's justified for Sentinels to have at least Scrapper level damage if not something approaching Blasters.

 

Or am I misreading it?

Now I admit to not being very up on who is the current pylon king or anything such, but if the stalkers are not the kings of single target, I'd be very shocked. Yes, they suffer on AOE, but against one hard target, I'm not sure who could be better. That would be digression however.

 

My point, and I'd like to think I was clear, was to point out that the sentinel inherent alone takes an extra hit from the purple patch. That was all I was saying. It was a comparison of inherents, not of ATs.

 

Comparing the ATs overall is far, far more complicated. Do I think sentinels should have scrapper damage? Nah. However if they are a damage AT (and honestly, they're not particularly good at anything else), they ought to do more credible damage.

[Underfyre]

3 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Comparing the ATs overall is far, far more complicated. Do I think sentinels should have scrapper damage? Nah. However if they are a damage AT (and honestly, they're not particularly good at anything else), they ought to do more credible damage.

 

Well their secondary is made to take more damage, and they don't do that super well either. So subpar primary and subpar secondary for what? Because they're not allowed to do as much damage as Scrappers? Get outta here.

[Underfyre]

Alright, team dynamics. We're just going to assume the Sentinel is opening to justify them being there in a non-opportunity situation. For fun we'll assume the scrapper has Superior Critical strikes for an additional 6% on top of their 10% for a boss.

 

Brute - 41.7077 * 180% = 75.07

Defender - 36.15
Controller - 30.59
Blaster - 62.56
Blaster - 62.56
Corruptor - 41.71
Tanker - 52.83

Scrapper - 62.5615 + (62.5615*16%) = 72.57

 

Total:  434.04

 

Brute - 75.07
Defender - 36.15
Controller - 30.59
Blaster - 62.56
Blaster - 62.56
Corruptor - 41.71
Tanker - 52.83
Sentinel - 52.83

 

Total: 414.3 * 1.05 = 435.02

 

With Opportunity active:

 

Brute - 75.07
Defender - 36.15
Controller - 30.59
Blaster - 62.56
Blaster - 62.56
Corruptor - 41.71
Tanker - 52.83
Sentinel - 52.83

 

Total: 414.3 * 1.25 = 517.88

 

Math wrong here? Does this justify the lower modifier for the class?

[drbuzzard]

18 minutes ago, underfyre said:

 

Well their secondary is made to take more damage, and they don't do that super well either. So subpar primary and subpar secondary for what? Because they're not allowed to do as much damage as Scrappers? Get outta here.

Yeah, it seems clear to me that the making of sentinels was never finished. I consider the concept of the sentinel (in terms of ranged damage with defenses) as a core comic book hero type which the game had skipped over. It really is a needed AT. However it was never finished in the sense of being balanced into a roll beyond filling a gap in hero types from comic books. They needed a few balance passes which simply never happened. What we have seems to have been a first pass trying to avoid stepping on blaster toes, but going too far.

[Bill Z Bubba]

21 minutes ago, underfyre said:

Well their secondary is made to take more damage, and they don't do that super well either. So subpar primary and subpar secondary for what? Because they're not allowed to do as much damage as Scrappers? Get outta here.

 

Scrapper SR vs Sentinel SR:

 

Sentinel with 3 toggles and 2 passives, slotted with SOs, Melee and Range are at 28.39% and AoE is at 31.12% defense.

Scrapper with 3 toggles and 3 passives, slotted with SOs, 30.42% to MRA defense.

 

The sentinel can take Master Brawler for +absorption and removes the clicking for mez protection and can get 10.92% Psi Def if you slot enduring for it. (I never would.)

 

And unless Mids is wrong, the sentinel gets capped 75% damres at 0 health where the scrapper only gets 60%.

 

How again, is sentinel armor inferior to scrapper armor?

[ZemX]

10 minutes ago, underfyre said:

Math wrong here? Does this justify the lower modifier for the class?

Your math isn't the problem.  But you've chosen pretty much the most favorable comparison for a Scrapper though by assuming a 16% crit rate against a boss (which they won't see against every boss) while giving the Sentinel no Opportunity.  Not that I know how to properly compare the overall benefit of SCS vs. Opportunity here either, but one is clearly a best case and one is a worst case.  That's just an unfair comparison.

 

Also, this is a single target and everybody takes one swing.  I get that that's just easier to calculate, but it's also nothing close to a real-world comparison of the overall damage output of each AT involved here.  This same thought experiment would make Stalkers look like gods in need of a serious nerf.

 

Sentinels have generally more and larger-area AoEs than Scrappers.  That makes them more likely to hit more targets even if the caps are the same.  The design then suggests that while Sentinels are not the boss busters that Scrappers or Stalkers are, they can probably do equal or better real-world AoE overall damage already with pretty much similar survivability.

 

If they need a tune up, it's not by much.

[drbuzzard]

I don't think I undersat

16 minutes ago, underfyre said:

Alright, team dynamics. We're just going to assume the Sentinel is opening to justify them being there in a non-opportunity situation. For fun we'll assume the scrapper has Superior Critical strikes for an additional 6% on top of their 10% for a boss.

 

Brute - 41.7077 * 180% = 75.07

Defender - 36.15
Controller - 30.59
Blaster - 62.56
Blaster - 62.56
Corruptor - 41.71
Tanker - 52.83

Scrapper - 62.5615 + (62.5615*16%) = 72.57

 

Total:  434.04

 

Brute - 75.07
Defender - 36.15
Controller - 30.59
Blaster - 62.56
Blaster - 62.56
Corruptor - 41.71
Tanker - 52.83
Sentinel - 52.83

 

Total: 414.3 * 1.05 = 435.02

 

With Opportunity active:

 

Brute - 75.07
Defender - 36.15
Controller - 30.59
Blaster - 62.56
Blaster - 62.56
Corruptor - 41.71
Tanker - 52.83
Sentinel - 52.83

 

Total: 414.3 * 1.25 = 517.88

 

Math wrong here? Does this justify the lower modifier for the class?

I don't think I get what you are using for numbers. I mean if we're using that base 100 damage generic attack multiplied by scalar it would look like

 

brute = 100 x .75 x 2.8 (since you're giving 90% fury which is generous, and actually favors the sentinel) =210 (you forgot enhancement, which I am rounding to 100%-lazy)

defender 100 x2x .65 =130

controller 100 x2x .55 = 110

blaster 100x1.125x2= 225

corrupter 100x.75 = 150

tanker = 100x.95x2= 190

scrapper = 100x1.125x1.16x2 = 261

 

So I get 1501

 

Then sentinel= 100 x .95 x2 =190

 

1430 for the team x 1.05 = 1501

 

Ooh, wonder if that is indicative of their original math?

 

Of course when opportunity up it is much higher  1430 x 1.25 =1787

average 1644 (for opportunity 50% uptime), so better. That's 9.5% better.

 

But then we need to actually try some level shift against +4s (x.48)

720 for the scrapper team

 

sentinel without opportunity

702

 

with opportunity

768

 

for 50% opportunity 735.

 

At +4 the sentinel team has a 2% edge (and no accounting for build up and different DPA from the power sets themselves).

 

So more when opportunity is up, less when not. On balance the sentinel helps. Of course a real debuffer acting at 30% or 22.5% would be better still.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bopper]

30 minutes ago, underfyre said:

Brute - 41.7077 * 180% = 75.07

Why are you giving the Brute an 80% damage buff? Are you assuming 40% fury? Perhaps you meant to do 80% fury which would give 160% damage buff.

 

You might want to also factor in 95% damage enhancement just for completeness. 

 

However, some of it will still not all add up as you're assuming the sentinel is the only source of resistance debuffs. When the team adds more debuffs, the percent contribution from Sentinels resistance debuffs go down. Right now, you're assume team debuffs is X = 0%, so when you did your math you get the following:

% improvement = (1 + 25% + X)/(1 + X) = 1.25x

 

But if the team applied X = 60% resistance debuffs, then the improvement from the Sentinel becomes:

% improvement = (1 + 25% + X)/(1 + X) = 1.85/1.6 = 1.15625

 

So now your ratio (using numbers from earlier, although they need to be corrected for damage enhancements) you get:

434.04 x 1.6 = 694.46 vs. 414.3 X 1.85 = 766.46

 

I'm doing the math from my phone, so I'll come back soon with new numbers where all ATs show a 95% damage buff, and brutes assume 80% fury for a 255% damage buff. Then I'll rerun those debuff values

 

[drbuzzard]

25 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Scrapper SR vs Sentinel SR:

 

Sentinel with 3 toggles and 2 passives, slotted with SOs, Melee and Range are at 28.39% and AoE is at 31.12% defense.

Scrapper with 3 toggles and 3 passives, slotted with SOs, 30.42% to MRA defense.

 

The sentinel can take Master Brawler for +absorption and removes the clicking for mez protection and can get 10.92% Psi Def if you slot enduring for it. (I never would.)

 

And unless Mids is wrong, the sentinel gets capped 75% damres at 0 health where the scrapper only gets 60%.

 

How again, is sentinel armor inferior to scrapper armor?

It depends on the set, but people look at the stated scalar defense value of .7 vs. .75 for scrappers. Given how much the sentinel sets are changed, it's probably not the most valid comparison.

[Underfyre]

1 minute ago, drbuzzard said:

It depends on the set, but people look at the stated scalar defense value of .7 vs. .75 for scrappers. Given how much the sentinel sets are changed, it's probably not the most valid comparison.

 

Other sets even use their Ice defense sets. Can you imagine?

[drbuzzard]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Why are you giving the Brute an 80% damage buff? Are you assuming 40% fury? Perhaps you meant to do 80% fury which would give 160% damage buff.

 

You might want to also factor in 95% damage enhancement just for completeness. 

 

However, some of it will still not all add up as you're assuming the sentinel is the only source of resistance debuffs. When the team adds more debuffs, the percent contribution from Sentinels resistance debuffs go down. Right now, you're assume team debuffs is X = 0%, so when you did your math you get the following:

% improvement = (1 + 25% + X)/(1 + X) = 1.25x

 

But if the team applied X = 60% resistance debuffs, then the improvement from the Sentinel becomes:

% improvement = (1 + 25% + X)/(1 + X) = 1.85/1.6 = 1.15625

 

So now your ratio (using numbers from earlier, although they need to be corrected for damage enhancements) you get:

434.04 x 1.6 = 694.46 vs. 414.3 X 1.85 = 766.46

 

I'm doing the math from my phone, so I'll come back soon with new numbers where all ATs show a 95% damage buff, and brutes assume 80% fury for a 255% damage buff. Then I'll rerun those debuff values

 

This really is the issue here. He is taking the sentinel resistance debuff in a force multiplying vacuum. The game is very focused on force multipliers, and you end up with much more powerful teams, the more of those you add. With 3 buff/debuff classes on a team, the odds of no force multipliers is negligible.

Edited May 17, 2021 by drbuzzard

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

It depends on the set, but people look at the stated scalar defense value of .7 vs. .75 for scrappers. Given how much the sentinel sets are changed, it's probably not the most valid comparison.

 

It's not even remotely valid.

 

6 minutes ago, underfyre said:

Other sets even use their Ice defense sets. Can you imagine?

 

I don't. Ice armor sucks on every AT. 🙂

[Underfyre]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Why are you giving the Brute an 80% damage buff? Are you assuming 40% fury? Perhaps you meant to do 80% fury which would give 160% damage buff.

 

You might want to also factor in 95% damage enhancement just for completeness. 

 

However, some of it will still not all add up as you're assuming the sentinel is the only source of resistance debuffs. When the team adds more debuffs, the percent contribution from Sentinels resistance debuffs go down. Right now, you're assume team debuffs is X = 0%, so when you did your math you get the following:

% improvement = (1 + 25% + X)/(1 + X) = 1.25x

 

But if the team applied X = 60% resistance debuffs, then the improvement from the Sentinel becomes:

% improvement = (1 + 25% + X)/(1 + X) = 1.85/1.6 = 1.15625

 

So now your ratio (using numbers from earlier, although they need to be corrected for damage enhancements) you get:

434.04 x 1.6 = 694.46 vs. 414.3 X 1.85 = 766.46

 

I'm doing the math from my phone, so I'll come back soon with new numbers where all ATs show a 95% damage buff, and brutes assume 80% fury for a 255% damage buff. Then I'll rerun those debuff values

 

 

I really really really didn't want to include outside factors. I just wanted to look at something extremely simple like an opening attack. I figured the Brute would have some residual rage, just not all of it. It was a constant in both teams, but technically yes, adding more damage increases the value of the debuff. I didn't consider it until afterwards.

 

Team dynamics will get wildly out of hand very quickly when we want to factor in even just a few details.

 

"But whattabout the extra damage from Opportunity? The Sentinel would be doing more damage."

"But whattabout the Blasters stacking Defiance? The Blaster would be doing more damage."

"But whattabout the debuffs from the Defender? The changes how much the Sentinel is contributing as a force multplier"

"But whattabout the mobs innate resists? That will lower how much it's resisting on top of purple patch"

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Why are you giving the Brute an 80% damage buff? Are you assuming 40% fury? Perhaps you meant to do 80% fury which would give 160% damage buff.

 

You might want to also factor in 95% damage enhancement just for completeness. 

 

However, some of it will still not all add up as you're assuming the sentinel is the only source of resistance debuffs. When the team adds more debuffs, the percent contribution from Sentinels resistance debuffs go down. Right now, you're assume team debuffs is X = 0%, so when you did your math you get the following:

% improvement = (1 + 25% + X)/(1 + X) = 1.25x

 

But if the team applied X = 60% resistance debuffs, then the improvement from the Sentinel becomes:

% improvement = (1 + 25% + X)/(1 + X) = 1.85/1.6 = 1.15625

 

So now your ratio (using numbers from earlier, although they need to be corrected for damage enhancements) you get:

434.04 x 1.6 = 694.46 vs. 414.3 X 1.85 = 766.46

 

I'm doing the math from my phone, so I'll come back soon with new numbers where all ATs show a 95% damage buff, and brutes assume 80% fury for a 255% damage buff. Then I'll rerun those debuff values

 

Supplemental math. I added a Stalker to make it a team of 8, and I gave the stalker an out of hide crit chance of 31% because of the 7 teammates. Subbing in a scrapper for a sentinel, using 95% damage enhancements, giving brutes 80% fury, I come up with the following.

Scrapper team: scaled total = 15.6105 x 1.6 = 24.98

Sentinel team: scaled total = 14.91825 x 1.85 = 27.60

 

% change: +10.5% when opportunity is active.

% change: -1.45% when opportunity is not active.

 

This assumes of course everyone is using an attack with the same scaled damage

[drbuzzard]

Though I've got a kooky idea since we're crunching numbers. How about we numerically compare that 4 blaster team to a 4 sentinel team? (apples to oranges all things considered, but I will over simplify to make it completely invalid).

 

4 blasters, make them all ranged /dev so constant 20% damage buff from targeting drone, and assuming they can maintain a 40% damage boost from defiance (I usually keep it higher, but whatever).

 

100x1.125x2.6 = 292.5

x4 = 1170

 

OK, 4 sents

.95 x 2 = 190 x4 = 760

this though will have opportunity up for 2 of 4 all the time -shiny.

so x1.6 = 1216

 

But that is for +0

 

Of course we were doing +4s

 

Blaster 1170 x.48 = 561

Sentinel 760x .48 x (1+(.48x.6)) = 469

 

Simple, but kind of explains that MoITF time.

[drbuzzard]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

It's not even remotely valid.

 

 

I don't. Ice armor sucks on every AT. 🙂

 

It's more valid on some sets than others. On the resistance sets, the .7 vs. .75 is usually followed in the numbers (looking at fiery aura, or electric armor for example) though they have different powers in the set so mitigation gets shifted again.

[drbuzzard]

6 minutes ago, underfyre said:

"But whattabout the mobs innate resists? That will lower how much it's resisting on top of purple patch"

Actually this is a cute thing about how they did resistance debuff. They made it so that damage resistance always acts as debuff resistance in the same amount. This is universal (except for bugs which have existed at times).

 

What that results in mathematically is that resistance debuff is always a damage boost equal to the debuff %.

 

To demonstrate:

Say target A has damage resistance 0% to damage type. You hit it with that 100 point blast you do 130 damage.

 

Target B is loaded with damage resistance of 50%. You debuff that 30%, which is resisted to 15%. Then the resistance is 35%.

Before the debuff you do 50 damage. After the debuff you do 65 damage (which is 30% more). Voila, tidy math. I have to believe that was intentional.

[Underfyre]

 

45 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Scrapper SR vs Sentinel SR:

 

Sentinel with 3 toggles and 2 passives, slotted with SOs, Melee and Range are at 28.39% and AoE is at 31.12% defense.

Scrapper with 3 toggles and 3 passives, slotted with SOs, 30.42% to MRA defense.

 

The sentinel can take Master Brawler for +absorption and removes the clicking for mez protection and can get 10.92% Psi Def if you slot enduring for it. (I never would.)

 

And unless Mids is wrong, the sentinel gets capped 75% damres at 0 health where the scrapper only gets 60%.

 

How again, is sentinel armor inferior to scrapper armor?

 

Health caps aren't something I track, but from Mid's I get:

 

Scrapper cap: 2409

Sentinel cap: 2088

 

Both are capped at 75% resists. Health pool matters, especially where regen/s is concerned. The armors as sets aren't 1 for 1 copies. So we have differences like the superior Fiery Embrace against the weaker Molten Embrace. There are no damage auras (besides the one from the epic pool) since it's a "ranged" AT. Sentinels definitely scored with Master Brawler.