Demons/Cold vs Demons/Thermal

[res1972]

How much more tanky are the cold demons than the thermal demons?

 

Trying to decide between the two and if we’re only talking a small amount it would seem that the less active cold with the self-healing demons would be the better choice for me. 
 

Thanks for your input!

 

man is it great to be back playing CoH again!!

Edited July 2, 2021 by res1972

[DocMidknight]

I have both at 50 and I feel thermal is the more tankier pairing. Cold is very nice with heat loss and benumb to make most bosses, EBs and AVs hurt a bit along with the other debuffs it offers but thermal has a really strong buff in forge and 2 strong debuffs......both are win win combos

[res1972]

Sorry, I should have been more clear in my question... I was asking the difference between these two secondaries for the pets with regard to defense and resistance. 
 

Typical reply example would be something like: Demons/Cold you can get to 32% defense and 70% S/L resistance but Demons/Thermal can only get to 20% defense and 45% S/L but with the aoe healing it’s not a problem. 

Obviously those are not real numbers but hopefully it explains what information I’m looking for? 🤷‍♂️
 

Thanks!!

Edited July 2, 2021 by res1972

[brasilgringo]

The correct answer is Demons/Dark 😜

[res1972]

4 minutes ago, brasilgringo said:

The correct answer is Demons/Dark 😜

Thank you for the reply. Can you elaborate on why you say that? The way I understand it Dark is a debuffing set. Does it somehow have great slotting options that allow you to get the pets to high defense/resistance levels?

[brasilgringo]

5 minutes ago, res1972 said:

Thank you for the reply. Can you elaborate on why you say that? The way I understand it Dark is a debuffing set. Does it somehow have great slotting options that allow you to get the pets to high defense/resistance levels?

 

High level:  the demons have pretty good baked-in resists, including the shield they cast (one of the Gargoyle's casts a resist buff I think), and with dark you debuff the bejeezus out of everything's to-hit (effectively raising your def).  And your heal in Dark, plus Fluffy (dark pet) fill in the gaps.  This thread for the win:  

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by brasilgringo

[Force Redux]

Also Shadow Fall in Dark also boosts some resists and a bit of Defense. 

 

Honestly, can't go wrong with any of these, as many have reported excellent results with thermal & cold, too. 

[DocMidknight]

Dark not only debuffs the bejeezus out of everything with darkest night, throw in the fear which also debuffs, the rez which debuffs and stuns....and we can't forget about the fluffy, your own mini shadow troller. Shadowfall gives you a good amount of defense and resists when slotted accordingly. Out of all my demon MM that have hit 50, dark is the one that stands above all others on what it can do......storm, thermal, cold, kin and time all at 50 with pain at 35 and sonic next up but demon/dark is my beast

[Force Redux]

41 minutes ago, DocMidknight said:

Dark not only debuffs the bejeezus out of everything with darkest night, throw in the fear which also debuffs, the rez which debuffs and stuns....and we can't forget about the fluffy, your own mini shadow troller. Shadowfall gives you a good amount of defense and resists when slotted accordingly. Out of all my demon MM that have hit 50, dark is the one that stands above all others on what it can do......storm, thermal, cold, kin and time all at 50 with pain at 35 and sonic next up but demon/dark is my beast

I didn't want to sound biased or derail from Thermal/Cold via the OP, but you summed up my experiences very well 🙂

[res1972]

52 minutes ago, DocMidknight said:

Dark not only debuffs the bejeezus out of everything with darkest night, throw in the fear which also debuffs, the rez which debuffs and stuns....and we can't forget about the fluffy, your own mini shadow troller. Shadowfall gives you a good amount of defense and resists when slotted accordingly. Out of all my demon MM that have hit 50, dark is the one that stands above all others on what it can do......storm, thermal, cold, kin and time all at 50 with pain at 35 and sonic next up but demon/dark is my beast

I see...sounds intriguing. So what kind of numbers are we talking about as far as a good Demons/Dark build?

 

Pet Defense? Resistance? Etc?

 

 Thanks!!

[Force Redux]

Check out my guide in my signature... 🙂

[DocMidknight]

2 hours ago, res1972 said:

I see...sounds intriguing. So what kind of numbers are we talking about as far as a good Demons/Dark build?

 

Pet Defense? Resistance? Etc?

 

 Thanks!!

 

     I'm not really a numbers guy when it comes to the pets.......I just build them to suit my playstyle, think a scrappermind. I use hell on earth to mule all the pet procs and then utilize shadowfall and maneuvers to boost the defenses, the demons casting of the fire shield will boost the resist rating up and to help this I slot demons with a single resist dmg IO to increase that.   I rarely lose any demons and when I do it's mainly from aggroing a wee bit too many new friends in an area...and then it's not enough to worry about as I can just resummon 1 or 2 as needed

[Force Redux]

My guide, linked below my signature, has hard numbers for demons / dark resistance, defense etc

[Force Redux]

@res1972  Importing some of my numbers here from my guide. On top of the numbers for Resistance and Defense below, realize that Dark Miasma typically throws around 36% -ToHit Debuff rather casually through Darkest Night and Fearsome Stare (which combines with the Defense numbers below), and can raise it to 41% by using Twilight Grasp. Dark Servant can add another ridiculous 60% or more -ToHit Debuff if he gets involved in the fracas and is properly slotted for -ToHit:

 

[Exerpt from Gather the Shadows: A Dark Miasma Primer for Masterminds]:
 

Demonlings (Resists)

• 74% Smash/Lethal
• 52% Energy/Negative Energy, Psionic
• 90% Fire (Fiery Demonling); 65% Fire (Cold Demonling); 56% Fire (Hellfire Demonling)
• 56% Cold (Fiery Demonling); 81% Cold (Cold Demonling); 56% Cold (Hellfire Demonling)
• 60% Toxic (Fiery Demonling); 60% Toxic (Cold Demonling); 85% Toxic (Hellfire Demonling)

Demonlings (Defense)

• 19% Melee
• 19% Ranged
• 34% AoE
• 19% S/L/F/C/E/N/Psi

 

Gargoyles (Resists)

• 60% Smash/Lethal (Ember Demon); 79% Smash/Lethal (Hellfire Gargoyle)
• 52% Energy/Negative Energy, Psionic
• 72% Fire (Ember Demon); 77% Fire (Hellfire Gargoyle)
• 47% Cold (Ember Demon); 56% Cold (Hellfire Gargoyle)
• 60% Toxic (Ember Demon); 85% Toxic (Hellfire Gargoyle)

Gargoyles (Defense)

• 19% Melee
• 19% Ranged
• 34% AoE
• 19% S/L/F/C/E/N/Psi

 

Demon Prince (Resists)

• 66% Smash/Lethal 
• 60% Fire
• 64% Cold
• 52% Energy/Negative Energy, Psionic
• 68% Toxic

Demon Prince (Defense)

• 19% Melee
• 19% Ranged
• 34% AoE
• 35% Smash/Lethal
• 29% Fire
• 39% Cold
• 19% E/N/Psi

[brasilgringo]

And don't forget 1-2 whip attacks for style points and delivering some -RES while getting that FF +rchrg!  Yay Demons!

 

Build (my live):

Spoiler

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Voidcaller: Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Demon Summoning
Secondary Power Set: Dark Miasma
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Summon Demonlings -- CmmoftheM-Acc/Dmg(A), CmmoftheM-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), CmmoftheM-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(3), CmmoftheM-Rchg/PetAoEDef(5), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(5), EdcoftheM-PetDef(7)
Level 1: Twilight Grasp -- TchoftheN-Acc/EndRdx/Heal/HP/Regen(A), TchoftheN-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(7), TchoftheN-Acc/Heal(9), ThfofEss-+End%(9)
Level 2: Lash -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), HO:Nucle(11), TchofDth-Dam%(11), Hct-Dam%(13), ExpStr-Dam%(13), FrcFdb-Rechg%(15)
Level 4: Darkest Night -- SphIns-ToHitDeb(A), SphIns-Acc/ToHitDeb(19), SphIns-Acc/Rchg(19), SphIns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(21), SphIns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 6: Enchant Demon -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Tar Patch -- TmpRdn-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(A)
Level 10: Howling Twilight -- Artl-End/Rech/Rng(A), Ann-ResDeb%(23)
Level 12: Summon Demons -- MarofSpr-Acc/Dmg(A), MarofSpr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23), SlbAll-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), SlbAll-Build%(25), ResDam-I(27), ResDam-I(27)
Level 14: Crack Whip -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), PstBls-Dam%(29), HO:Nucle(29), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(31), ExpStr-Dam%(31), FrcFdb-Rechg%(31)
Level 16: Shadow Fall -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(33), ShlWal-Def(33), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(33), GldArm-3defTpProc(34), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(34)
Level 18: Hell on Earth -- MarofSpr-Dmg(A), MarofSpr-EndRdx/+Resist/+Regen(34), Dmg-I(36), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(36), SvrRgh-PetResDam(36), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(37)
Level 20: Fearsome Stare -- CldSns-ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(37), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(37), CldSns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(39), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(39), CldSns-%Dam(39)
Level 22: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Ksm-EndRdx/Rchg(40), Rct-ResDam%(40), BlsoftheZ-Travel(40), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(42)
Level 24: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(A), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(42)
Level 26: Summon Demon Prince -- MarofSpr-Acc/EndRdx(A), MarofSpr-Dmg/EndRdx(42), SlbAll-Dmg(43), ImpSwf-Dam%(43), UnbCns-Acc/Hold/Rchg(43), HO:Nucle(45)
Level 28: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(45), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(45)
Level 30: Tactics -- HO:Cyto(A)
Level 32: Abyssal Empowerment -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Dark Embrace -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(46), RctArm-ResDam(46)
Level 38: Dark Servant -- SphIns-ToHitDeb(A), SphIns-Acc/ToHitDeb(48), SphIns-Acc/Rchg(48), SphIns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(48), SphIns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(50), CldSns-%Dam(50)
Level 41: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 44: Oppressive Gloom -- HO:Endo(A)
Level 47: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Victory Rush -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 1: Supremacy 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(15), Prv-Absorb%(17)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(17)
Level 1: Cold Demonling 
Level 26: Demon Prince 
Level 12: Ember Demon 
Level 1: Fiery Demonling 
Level 1: Hellfire Demonling 
Level 12: Hellfire Gargoyle 
------------

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by brasilgringo

[Force Redux]

Yes, @brasilgringo truly an amazing combo, between two fantastic power sets! My favorite MM since CoV launch!!

[Crysis]

On 7/3/2021 at 12:15 AM, Force Redux said:

My guide, linked below my signature, has hard numbers for demons / dark resistance, defense etc

I know how to find your guide myself but just FYI that for me anyways, you have no signature line nor links to the guide.

 

Back on topic, I’ve many Demon MM’s.  Given their native +Res powers I have found /Dark and /Cold to make them the sturdiest.  However, although I often hear that a Demon/Cold is the max you can achieve for DPS (against hard targets), I honestly find Demon/Storm to be superior for putting down EB’s and AV’s.  /Storm adds little to the tackiness factor but with a double LS/Tornado you basically are just face melting anyways.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Crysis

[TygerDarkstorm]

37 minutes ago, Crysis said:

I know how to find your guide myself but just FYI that for me anyways, you have no signature line nor links to the guide.

Maybe if you're on mobile it's different, but it's there on my laptop.

 

[Force Redux]

@Crysis  Yes, I've heard fantastic things about Demons/Storm...if I didn't already have a demons, I might try one!

 

The linkage was directed more toward @res1972 since he'd asked for some hard numbers and I had them available. 

 

@TygerDarkstorm Thanks for checking, I was starting to wonder what I might have done to my account to hide my siggy, lol.. but yes, it is hidden on Mobile unless you run it as Desktop site. 🙂 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Force Redux

[Force Redux]

Also, to answer OP:

DEMON/COLD:  Demons get hit less often but will need to rely on demon heals to top off health. Has good debuffs, just like fire, so those are about even. Comes with an AoE stealth. Infrigerate can be procc'd to be a nasty ST attack.

 

DEMON/THERMAL:  Demons get hit more often, but you have healing aplenty to keep them upright (along with improved resists, so damage should not be too spikey). Forge is a great buff that Cold doesn't get. 

 

Both are fantastic. Just different feel. 

[res1972]

Just wanted to come back and say thank you all for the wonderful information. I went ahead and got a demons/dark to 50 with all his IO sets and have gotten most of my incarnates…and it’s pretty impressive compared to pre-50. My true test was to run +4/x8 arachnos and carnies paper missions solo without losing a single pet. It was slow going but I got it done. 
 

Now I’m wondering if necro/dark might be even better since I love control. I’ve got one up to 40 so far and it’s been pretty good. Can’t wait to see him at 50 with all his IOs and incarnates. 
 

Force Redux, I have really enjoyed your demons/dark build. Do you by chance have an IO sets build but without the Hami’s you could share?

 

 Thank you!!

Edited July 9, 2021 by res1972

[SmalltalkJava]

Without looking at the build you can usually replace a hami with a set piece that does the same thing or at least gets close.    Usually like an acc/dam or damage/end io from a set.  It gets you close usually

[Force Redux]

I'm away from my computer, but I'll be happy to detail a response later this weekend

[Force Redux]

19 hours ago, res1972 said:

Just wanted to come back and say thank you all for the wonderful information. I went ahead and got a demons/dark to 50 with all his IO sets and have gotten most of my incarnates…and it’s pretty impressive compared to pre-50. My true test was to run +4/x8 arachnos and carnies paper missions solo without losing a single pet. It was slow going but I got it done. 
 

Now I’m wondering if necro/dark might be even better since I love control. I’ve got one up to 40 so far and it’s been pretty good. Can’t wait to see him at 50 with all his IOs and incarnates. 
 

Force Redux, I have really enjoyed your demons/dark build. Do you by chance have an IO sets build but without the Hami’s you could share?

 

 Thank you!!

 

hello Res. Smalltalkjava pretty much summed out how to replace a Hami-O.  Any combo IO (that can even be boosted to +5 levels) can approximate a Hami-O until you decide to go and replace it. 

 

For Necro/Dark, yes, it is a more controllery set, the trade off being somewhat less damage, but you will lock down things and debuff their to hit even more. On mine, I run them with either Diagmanetic or Spectral Interface for even more debuffing/immob shennanigans, because no one can stack up Interface procs like a MM can! @Nyghtmaire (where are yoooooouuuuu Nyght!!?) posted a solid Necro/Dark build in my guide's thread if you want to review it. 

 

Personally, for me, Necro/Dark and Demon/Dark are both equally enjoyable. Demons are a bit more innately tougher and do more damage, but Necro is more controlelly and just as safe after things get locked down/debuffed. Plus the knights are fun to watch knocking things up and down. And they all ignore slows from Malta. I'd still get group fly for them, even if they are more melee-centric, as they can benefit from it like all pets can when dealing with odd map geometry and z-axis.

 

Glad you are enjoying!  🙂

[Hedgefund]

Too bad I didn't notice this when the thread was posted so I could rep Demon/Cold.  Cold is not a "Defensive set" at least not exclusively.  The shields give fire/cold resists as well (no f/c def).  I have a Demon/Cold and all of the minions have f/c resists somewhere between 80 and 90%.  The minimum def for any of the minions is 40% (except for f/c def), Demon Prince has 55% s/l.  All exceed soft-capped aoe.  An application of FW caps any minion's HP.  I've got a lot of MMs on my roster (multiples of any primary and secondary) and this one is the most powerful.