Market pvp

[RageusQuitus2]

Something i was thinking about, and mean no disrespect to anyone, just curious.

 

One way to get a flame war started is to discuss pvp with non pvper on these here forums.  Generally people suggest pvpers are cruel and out to ruin others fun.  Like a pro nba player vs a 10 year old.  Despite no debt, gear loss, etc.

 

Yet if a marketer pvps.  I definitely can suffer (yes yes highly dramatic word choice).  IOs I cant afford during mids to live phase of character life.  Hours farming moar inf to make up the difference.  All cause someone cornered a market or found a niche.

 

Im curious why yall get called ebeel marketers tongue and cheeck.  And pvpers well, im sure you can find some choice threads.

 

Is it because you dont get t bagged playing market pvp?  You dont see who beat you so no ego involved?

[Yomo Kimyata]

I can only speak for myself, and I fully recognize my biases:

 

It depends on what you mean by market pvp (lol).  

 

If you mean buyers competing against sellers, I don't really consider that pvp, but ok.  In this case, I think that "market pvp" is generally a straw man argument that doesn't really exist.  A real fundamental difference between Live and Homecoming is that the current devs have implemented (or expanded) policies that, honestly, make it extremely difficult if not impossible for people to manipulate markets.  

 

-- Fungibility (or pooling) of items make it extremely difficult to manipulate markets.  Shutting down luck charms was simple on Live.  It is a lot more difficult to shut down all common invention salvage.

 

-- Fixed price offerings, or price caps.  These caps can be (relatively) hard, like seeding 10mm rare salvage at 1mm, or 10mm Hero Packs at 10mm.  Or they can be soft, like converting other items (like merits) from one item to another, like the cost of an item (in inf) that costs 100 merits is definitively capped by the inf cost of 100 merits (which is 100mm), and soft capped by the relative value of selling alternate items (e.g., comparing the cost of a Winter O with the cost of 300 converters).

 

-- Converters are cheap, practically free.  With few exceptions (Hami-os leap to mind), you can create expensive items from cheap items.  It is (usually) probability based, and it takes a small amount of knowledge, but you cannot stop supply.

 

-- You cannot stop supply.  Fundamentally, Homecoming is an essentially closed system.  In order to control a market, you need to control supply, demand, or both.  There is no way to stop people from making more in-demand items, unless you buy them at inflated prices.  If you artificially create demand, that only works in the very short run.  In that case, you are setting yourself up to get pummeled with supply from other people.  Which brings me to my second point:

 

If by market PvP you mean buyers competing against other buyers or sellers competing against other sellers, that's real.  But that leads to better prices for buyers, as sellers compete.  It leads to better prices for sellers, as buyers compete.  This seems to be the exact opposite of what you are complaining about.  Truth be told, ebil marketers are making better, more efficient markets for the market muggles out there.

 

tl;dr  If you can't afford something over the long run (which I would consider one to a few days), that's not ebil marketers.  That's your fellow consumers wanting the same things you want and buying them at better prices.  I'm not going to claim there is *no* manipulation, but it's practically non-existent, in my opinion and in my personal experience.

 

Of course, your opinions may vary.

[Sakai]

I don't think there is a lot of market manipulation pvp style action going on.  There are far too many ways to get around a stranglehold on supply. 

 

Converting keeps it an even playing field. 

 

For about a year I was selling Lvl 10 Rectified Reticle: To Hit Buff/Recharge for prices ranging from 8 to 20 million.  Lots of them. Always wondered why people purchased my product instead of just crafting one themselves for 700K and change.  Then the set was mentioned somewhere in these esteemed halls, a few new well intentioned ladies and gentlemen entered the playing field and it became time to back off.  I get the consumer mentality though, I don't want to craft anything either, I want it nao.  So you pay.  I don't really view that as pvp.

 

There are certain items I dabble in that people pay me an obscene amount of influence for, compared to what I invest.  What can I say?  I am, after all, a flipper at heart.  I think the sweet spot for flipping is around 73ish% of purchase price; some IOs being exceptions to the rule (LotG+ being the most noticeable.  If you are willing to wait a few days you can probably get it for 5.5-5.8 but soonish costs 6-7.  It is tight profit margin.   That is why we convert.)  List it for a little over the Listing fee and you win.  1.5 will give you 3...8 will get you 12 with minimal effort.  So there is that sort of thing going on but it is super easy to beat.   

 

I think if we were ever to see manipulation it would be in Hami Os.  As there is no way to convert lead into gold, the market there is  more susceptible.  Prices vary radically over time so it doesn't appear anyone is doing so in a concerted way.  It is  fun to watch and profit from though.

 

 It is as Yomo said, the Ebil League of Ebilness is good for the market and the average player.  More available now for a much lower cost.  

 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Sakai
Edited for punctuation enhanced fluidity.

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, Sakai said:

 

 

For about a year I was selling Lvl 10 Rectified Reticle: To Hit Buff/Recharge for prices ranging from 8 to 20 million.  Lots of them. Always wondered why people purchased my product instead of just crafting one themselves for 700K and change.  Then the set was mentioned somewhere in these esteemed halls, a few new well intentioned ladies and gentlemen entered the playing field and it became time to back off.  I get the consumer mentality though, I don't want to craft anything either, I want it nao.  So you pay.  I don't really view that as pvp.

 

There are certain items I dabble in that people pay me an obscene amount of influence for, compared to what I invest.  What can I say?  I am, after all, a flipper at heart.  I think the sweet spot for flipping is around 73ish% of purchase price; some IOs being exceptions to the rule (LotG+ being the most noticeable.  If you are willing to wait a few days you can probably get it for 5.5-5.8 but soonish costs 6-7.  It is tight profit margin.   That is why we convert.)  List it for a little over the Listing fee and you win.  1.5 will give you 3...8 will get you 12 with minimal effort.  So there is that sort of thing going on but it is super easy to beat.   

 

I think if we were ever to see manipulation it would be in Hami Os.  As there is no way to convert lead into gold, the market there is  more susceptible.  Prices vary radically over time so it doesn't appear anyone is doing so in a concerted way.  It is  fun to watch and profit from though.

Apologies for the Rectified Reticles, on two levels.  Not only did I bring them up in the Meandering Path thread, but it was the niche I was moving into.  I took it out of rotation, but not before I locked up a huge amount of Encouraged Accuracy and Rectified Reticle recipes and cheap IOs.  It has not been the first market I ruined…

 

Flipping is still great on a lot of items, but for most IOs it’s much more profitable to craft and/or convert.  Plus, I can usually do that in good sized blocks!

 

There’s still good flipping in HOs (and in packaging them up into 53s, although that’s so slow and thin), but with daily Hami runs on many servers, there’s still a lot of daily supply.  IMO more than demand.

 

So market PvP is alive and good, but it’s really not sellers v. buyers.

[RageusQuitus2]

i appreciate the responses and love the who runs bartertown qoute.

[nihilii]

On 7/2/2021 at 8:32 PM, RageusQuitus2 said:

Is it because you dont get t bagged playing market pvp?  You dont see who beat you so no ego involved?

 

I think you cracked it right away.

 

The same maps out to the real world. Sport fans get hyper aggressive with each other. Yet most people are not as engaged with Wall Street shenanigans. If they complain, it's about an undefined, remote "them".

 

Finance is too abstract. Likewise with economics, monetary policy... It's just unnatural stuff, compared to more direct competitions that answer a primal need (at least in those of us afflicted with XY chromosomes).

[Murcielago]

I'm considering buying and deleting rare hami-os. What kind of market pvp is that?

Edited July 10, 2021 by Murcielago

[Murcielago]

I am trying to see if putting in a few hundred 1 INF bids on cheap hami-os will cause an artificial scarcity and cause the price to rise. Has anyone ever done this before? 

[Yomo Kimyata]

18 minutes ago, Murcielago said:

I am trying to see if putting in a few hundred 1 INF bids on cheap hami-os will cause an artificial scarcity and cause the price to rise. Has anyone ever done this before? 

 

By a GM no less.

 

 

[Murcielago]

3 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

By a GM no less.

 

 

Delicious. BRB going to manipulate the market even more. 

[America's Angel]

On 7/10/2021 at 10:26 PM, Murcielago said:

I am trying to see if putting in a few hundred 1 INF bids on cheap hami-os will cause an artificial scarcity and cause the price to rise. Has anyone ever done this before? 

 

A few weeks before level 53 Hami Os were possible, I checked which level 53 Hami Os people were storing their inf on.

 

Then I went and flooded all the OTHER level 53 Hami Os with 1 inf bids, to create the illusion that the majority of wealth was stored elsewhere.

 

This made the niches I was targeting look much less desirable on patch day.

[Yomo Kimyata]

22 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

A few weeks before level 53 Hami Os were possible, I checked which level 53 Hami Os people were storing their inf on.

 

Then I went and flooded all the OTHER level 53 Hami Os with 1 inf bids, to create the illusion that the majority of wealth was stored elsewhere.

 

This made the niches I was targeting look much less desirable on patch day.

Heh.

 

I had a lot of holding bids in lvl 53 HOs.  When I saw the patch notes, I took down all my bids and just in case someone was monitoring numbers I replaced them with the same number of bids at really low prices but well above 1 inf.  I didn’t think anyone would be foolish enough to spend 50+mm on lvl 50 nucs, combine them up, and offer it at 1 inf.  But there were plenty who offered at 1mm…. I’ve made a bunch of 100mm+ profit flips.

[tidge]

I also ended up with a few bargain-priced lvl 53 HOs, and scored some large profits from 'forgotten' bids. I didn't think to stay in that niche for more than four hours! It felt like the Oklahoma land rush.

[golstat2003]

Meh, market pvp is a bit weak when you have converters, merits and what the AE gives you.

 

You really can completely avoid the market for some things. Or just bid patiently and wait.

 

I think the OP exaggerates the issue.

[Murcielago]

12 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Meh, market pvp is a bit weak when you have converters, merits and what the AE gives you.

 

You really can completely avoid the market for some things. Or just bid patiently and wait.

 

I think the OP exaggerates the issue.

Oooo look at this person with rational thinking. jk

Edited July 15, 2021 by Murcielago