knockback Proposed Knockback modifcation/fix

[dnomad333]

Hi all. It was suggested that I post this here. Please bear with me, as I attempt to layout the situation, though many already know of it and read as I propose a possible solution.

 

Goal - As of right now I've personally witnessed that there is a growing majority of players that don't like Knockback.

In Solo, it's not too bad once you learn how it works. But in a team or group environment, it seems it can mess up the group dynamic to the point of generating tempers.

This suggestion is not about removing the knockback mechanic, but instead offering a modification to it.

Right now the solution to this problem is to add 'Sudden Acceleration-Knockback to Knockdown Proc' to each individual power. In this, you 1. Have to purchase or get given the IO. 2. Have a power slot for it. And 3. Do it for each power that has Knockback.

For characters that have multiple powers, such ask Energy Blasters and Peace Bringers, this can potentially reduce the characters effectiveness with the loss of a slot to the proc. Or raise the ire of players if they don't use it.

Essentially the goal of this suggestion is to allow characters that have knockback to enjoy playing said characters, without being discriminated against.

 

Solution - Simply, though not always simple, My idea is to have a Singular global IO Proc created, Not unlick the existing proc in 'Sudden Acceleration' that either changes the character itself to either Knockdown or Knock up. Everything else would remain the same.

While this would still require the use of 1 power slot, it would be better than having to slot one of each power,

 

Final - While this seems like a simple solution. I am unaware of how hard it would be to put into play. Would it be a new IO, or a set? Where could it be slotted? Should it be able to be put in say... Brawl? How would it effect the player economy? How would it effect builds? These are a few of the questions that should be answered first before implementation could be made. Other questions that should be considered are. How often are Knockback characters played nowadays? How often are characters with Knockback having to switch to Knockdown? How would this affect PVP? and finally is this worth doing?

For that last question, I would say yes. I have been personally affected by being 'strongly encouraged' to change to knockdown and would like more options to do so, that don't limit my build choices.

 

Thank you for reading!

 

- dnomad333/Vagabond

[PeregrineFalcon]

6 minutes ago, dnomad333 said:

Goal - As of right now I've personally witnessed that there is a growing majority of players that don't like Knockback.

I believe this statement to be false.

 

How, exactly, have you "witnessed a growing majority of players"? Have you run some kind of survey or poll? Do you even know how many people play on Homecoming? If not then how can you say that it's a majority?

 

Also, how do you know that the people who dislike Knockback are growing? Is it possible that it's just a handful of people that are being very vocal?

 

Or is it possible that it's just you and your friends/guildmates that dislike Knockback?

[dnomad333]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I believe this statement to be false.

 

How, exactly, have you "witnessed a growing majority of players"? Have you run some kind of survey or poll? Do you even know how many people play on Homecoming? If not then how can you say that it's a majority?

 

Also, how do you know that the people who dislike Knockback are growing? Is it possible that it's just a handful of people that are being very vocal?

 

Or is it possible that it's just you and your friends/guildmates that dislike Knockback?

 

Fair assessment. I don't play on all the servers. But I do run PUGs a lot. I can't give you a number, but I encounter a great # of people during the day. Maybe I keep running into the same people all the time. Who knows, I don't always track Global's. So I will retract part of that sentence.

 

But this is happening. It's one of the reasons that I asked about Datamining as part of possible implementation. No this isn't my SG and or friends exclusively doing this. I saw a problem that I concluded that was happening due to my experience and offered a solution.

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

So a bunch of people that you've met in game. Ok. I wish you'd just said that instead of attempting bolster your argument by misrepresenting the number of people who agree with you.

 

Ok, let's say the developers do create this global KB to KD IO. What then? What happens when a bunch of people don't slot it because they don't read the forums? What happens when a bunch of people don't slot it because they actually like knockback? Do you kick those people from your team and tell them to go slot a KB to KD global proc? Do you then ask the devs to nerf all KB in game to KD?

 

BTW, my research indicates that 87% of players actually prefer knockback instead of knockdown.

[Naraka]

The simple solution is just add damage enhancement to the IO.

[Super Atom]

Knockback is the enemy of current AOE meta CoH

 

Scattering enemies when instead your group could just AOE them to death in 2 seconds is counter productive.

 

That said- I tend to view it was a negative modifier and honestly, other than be slightly annoying it doesn't do much in terms of slowing down the stomp fest.

 

also, you're gonna ruffle a ton of feathers with this and it's gonna be really funny. Gonna see a lot of "Learning to aim it" and "Mitigation" thrown around.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Super Atom

[Sunsette]

Knockback is a core function of the game, and the stance in the past has been that Knockback should be redesigned to be more desirable rather than just turning KB into another static stun.

 

Which I am for, in theory, but I have no idea when that's going to happen.

 

In some ways a global KB to KD effect would be an improvement (slots saved, for sure) but it would also really expose how hilariously basic and bland Energy Blast really is, and potentially create a toxic environment for people who want to keep some KB powers -- so I don't think it'll happen. I've been pushing for better KB IOs and sets in order to better facilitate this (link in sig) but I suppose there's not much interest in that.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Sunsette

[dnomad333]

53 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

So a bunch of people that you've met in game. Ok. I wish you'd just said that instead of attempting bolster your argument by misrepresenting the number of people who agree with you.

 

Ok, let's say the developers do create this global KB to KD IO. What then? What happens when a bunch of people don't slot it because they don't read the forums? What happens when a bunch of people don't slot it because they actually like knockback? Do you kick those people from your team and tell them to go slot a KB to KD global proc? Do you then ask the devs to nerf all KB in game to KD?

 

BTW, my research indicates that 87% of players actually prefer knockback instead of knockdown.

 

*looks around for the hornets nest* ...interesting thoughts. I would hope that something like this doesn't just magically appear one day and take us all by surprise.

I am not asking that a Nerf be put in place or even that a change be made to remove KB. I am asking that other options be considered and offered my suggestions. Who knows, I hope this discussion sparks something positive. As I mentioned in the beginning of my first post. I asked where this should be put and was told here was the best place.

 

I am interested in your data on KB. Would you be willing to share your sources?

[Sunsette]

Pretty sure they were mocking you with that statistic because they were still upset about your phrasing. 

[dnomad333]

6 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

Pretty sure they were mocking you with that statistic because they were still upset about your phrasing. 

 

Possibly, but I am curious. Actually, this whole thing is fascinating. I'm interested in everyone's points of view. I have to be to find the best answer. If that answer comes back no, that's fine. I'll accept it. But I won't give up until I try first.

 

So, in the end I don't always communicate well and I'm a bit naïve. I'll learn and move forward and hopefully help in the process.

[PeregrineFalcon]

7 minutes ago, dnomad333 said:

I am interested in your data on KB. Would you be willing to share your sources?

Sure. I asked all of my friends who play City of Heroes. 87% of them said they prefer knockback to knockdown. I'm sure that my small group of friends is a representative sample of the thousands of people that play on Homecoming. Right?

 

Also, you never answered my question about "what next"? I ask because yours is like thread number 1,178 on converting knockback to knockdown. If the developers take your suggestion and allow people to slot globally for knockback to knockdown then what? Because you know that a bunch of people won't do it. So what then? Do you then come back to the forums and complain to the devs that since people refuse to slot their new KB to KD IO, and you're tired of kicking these people who don't play their characters the way you want them to, that they should now just change all knockback to knockdown? And if your answer is 'no' then why not? Because it appears to be the next logical step.

 

Welcome to Suggestions & Feedback. Where new ideas undergo trial by fire! 😄

[Sunsette]

Yeah, okay. Don't mind this guy, not sure why he feels like giving you so much crap.

 

I will once again toot my own horn on my solution to this issue

 

 And prior developer comment on this issue.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Sunsette

[dnomad333]

Thanks Sunsette! I knew I would be doing some reading when I started this and told the person as much that sent me here.

 

15 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Sure. I asked all of my friends who play City of Heroes. 87% of them said they prefer knockback to knockdown. I'm sure that my small group of friends is a representative sample of the thousands of people that play on Homecoming. Right?

 

Also, you never answered my question about "what next"? I ask because yours is like thread number 1,178 on converting knockback to knockdown. If the developers take your suggestion and allow people to slot globally for knockback to knockdown then what? Because you know that a bunch of people won't do it. So what then? Do you then come back to the forums and complain to the devs that since people refuse to slot their new KB to KD IO, and you're tired of kicking these people who don't play their characters the way you want them to, that they should now just change all knockback to knockdown? And if your answer is 'no' then why not? Because it appears to be the next logical step.

 

Welcome to Suggestions & Feedback. Where new ideas undergo trial by fire! 😄

 

I can't answer your 'what next?' Not truthfully at least. Reason? There is a lot more in implementation than someone asking for something. Getting it immediately and it going right into production. I would hope that 'If' such a thing happened that I would be the bigger person. I am not here to tell people what to do. Just offer suggestions. Fighting each other is not going to solve anything.

 

I've scanned over what Sunsette sent me. I really can't answer to why a few of theirs suggestions won't work (I have my reasons), but the overall idea is sound for the IO's.

 

In the end. I am trying to suggest a solution with the minimum amount of work (Hopefully). As a retool take much long and I believe more time than our wonderful Devs have right now to focus on KB. Yes, I just said this is a temporary fix/solution and should be treated as such.

[Outrider_01]

Stop grouping, problem solved.

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 hours ago, dnomad333 said:

I can't answer your 'what next?' Not truthfully at least. Reason? There is a lot more in implementation than someone asking for something.

I really appreciate the honest answer. I didn't ask it just to be a jerk, I asked it because it's the next logical step in the progression of this discussion. To explain why I'll quote a dev:

 

Captain Powerhouse "A reason I heavily oppose the addition of a global switch for KnockBack is that as soon as it's available, anyone that does not use it will become an outcast, accused of trolling, and what not."

 

I agree with him, which is why I responded to your post in the first place. Once you "solve" the problem of knockback you then create the next problem - people being ostracized for having knockback. So instead of solving one problem by creating another why don't we try to solve it in a way that doesn't create another problem?

Edited July 12, 2021 by PeregrineFalcon
Added link

[Super Atom]

49 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Captain Powerhouse "A reason I heavily oppose the addition of a global switch for KnockBack is that as soon as it's available, anyone that does not use it will become an outcast, accused of trolling, and what not."

 

 

That still happens, it just takes multiple slots to not have it said.

 

Energy blast is probably the biggest set people give grief for being KB heavy, but really you just need the IO's in 2-3 of the powers depending on what you take. I only have KB>KD in my nuke and the AoE. ST KB is not a big deal.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Super Atom

[Sunsette]

  

57 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

So instead of solving one problem by creating another why don't we try to solve it in a way that doesn't create another problem?

 

Mostly because those solutions create a different kind of problem: larger technical workload.

 

I'm not necessarily for a global KD switch, though I am more for it than I was two years ago. What KB really needs is:

1. For KB to have value beyond forcing animation time (which KD does nearly as well with fewer downsides). Choosing what this value should be takes design effort since you're implementing a new force multiplier support sets and attack sets with KD will be able to use much more effectively if you are not careful.
2. Implementing the above is not a trivial technical feat based on what I've seen from people who've looked at the code.
3. Energy Blast dramatically overhauled; it is the only damage set designed around true KB as its main form of utility, which means it's hit by the current IO tax the most, and is the most popular choice for people who want the visceral fun of throwing people around. 

 

I'd love to see this on the horizon, but also I don't think it's realistic to ask for and expect it.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Sunsette

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, Sunsette said:

Yeah, okay. Don't mind this guy, not sure why he feels like giving you so much crap.

 

 

PF does that. You either go "OK, that's just him" and chuckle or want to strangle him. :) 

 

My main reason for opposing this sort of thing is simple. I've already dealt with people who have insisted I "needed" the various KB-KD IOs, without ever seeing me play. I've taught groups that no, it actually isn't needed and can be useful - the tanks and brutes seem to love having mobs flung their way for some reason. >.> And I've blocked people who were just being asses about it.  I don't want to see that behaviour increase, and I don't want people to ... basically never learn to properly use it because they have some global IO in.

 

And honestly, I've seen *having* that directly affect my survivability - negatively. Example: Dark/Pain defender. Soloing through a sewer mission. I have that IO in Torrent since that defender's typically on MSRs. Not being able to knock things away (which, granted, was more "expectation out of habit") meant the things knocked *down* were still in range of their more damaging attacks - and able to get up quicker to attack me - as well as making me less able to use the terrain (knock something down an incline, where I can use ranged attacks while they try to come back, for instance.)

 

The only place I generally *do* feel a KB-KD is a universally "good" option is in pets - unlike people (who can look at a situation and place themselves properly,) pets just fling stuff all over the place. Pets, to me, should not have knock*back.* (Well, that and bonfire, where there's a decided increase in damage as it gives enemies a nice crispy brown texture...)

[Sunsette]

I'm very sympathetic to all of that, and it's a big reason I don't see myself using a global switch on a blaster, corruptor, or Defender. (Sentinel is another kettle of fish; Dom i could see if i was paired with a primary that negates KB most of the time under some build circumstances.) Super Atom kinda made fun of it coming in, and I get why, but also I really have seen wonders come from well placed KB! And there's just something uniquely satisfying about good use of geography in a fight. 

 

But all the same I do get why people keep asking; Energy Blast is the main offender and it's not a well designed set; it adds insult to injury to see Water do it better with better slotting options. It's not easy to get high value out of it, yet it's the most iconic blaster power down to having Kirby spots.

 

Whether it be some powerset redesigns, new IOs, or some option I haven't thought of, I think it's a natural request that isn't going to go away until it's addressed somehow. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Sunsette

[PeregrineFalcon]

17 minutes ago, Greycat said:

PF does that. You either go "OK, that's just him" and chuckle or want to strangle him. 🙂

I really don't mean to "give people crap." I suspect that my writing style makes me appear to be angry. I'm not. So that's not my intention, but based off of peoples' reactions it seems to me that most people take it that way.

 

My intention is to tear apart the argument, not the person. I often make the mistake of believing that people can read the words that I write without assuming some kind of passive-aggressive 'tone'. If you read the words that I write as if their were spoken by Mister Spock, instead of by Sam Kinison, you'll find that I ask very specific questions for a reason. For example: when I say "Or is it possible that it's just you and your friends?" I do not mean that as a passive-aggressive way to call someone an idiot. What I mean by that is literally "think about what you've said. Is it possible that it's just you and your friends who think that way?"

 

I wonder if people read just the words I write, without putting their own 'tone' to my words and assuming that I'm angry, upset and/or crazy, if they'd still feel the urge to strangle me. I'll probably never know.

[Sunsette]

I've heard it said that English is about as intonation and stress-heavy a language as you can get without being formally a tonal language like Mandarin. Not being a linguist myself, I can't confirm that, but tone is something we always have to read into the words one way or the other. In any event, I am sorry for assuming malice where there was none! 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Sunsette

[dnomad333]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I really appreciate the honest answer. I didn't ask it just to be a jerk, I asked it because it's the next logical step in the progression of this discussion. To explain why I'll quote a dev:

 

Captain Powerhouse "A reason I heavily oppose the addition of a global switch for KnockBack is that as soon as it's available, anyone that does not use it will become an outcast, accused of trolling, and what not."

 

I agree with him, which is why I responded to your post in the first place. Once you "solve" the problem of knockback you then create the next problem - people being ostracized for having knockback. So instead of solving one problem by creating another why don't we try to solve it in a way that doesn't create another problem?

 

You are absolutely correct and this is the reason I wanted to open a discourse on this issue. In my opinion something should be done about this. And soon, because 'become an outcast, accused of trolling and what not' is already happening now. Now, unfortunately as you pointed out earlier, I don't hove solid numbers on how much. But it is happening. It happened to me. I rolled with it, but can we expect everyone to do the same? In my defense it was something that I saw coming. Again though and as you also pointed out, how will new players know? or anyone that doesn't use the forums?

Mine may not be the best solution.

[dnomad333]

Note: I just realized that I sent the last post quite a while after I intended. I apologize if it seems out of order.

Edited July 13, 2021 by dnomad333
Double post

[Zewks]

 

1. I dont believe the option should cost ANY enhancement slots or currency (ie: you have to acquire the IO, which many new players wont be able to early on)

2. Options are good. Always. They let those who like something, keep that thing. They let those that dont like it, get rid of it. Its a WIN / WIN situation if there is the option to enable or disable as just a global option.

3. Ultimately, having a setting in the options menu for this OPTION would be ideal.

4. A quick fix would be to put an option on the P2W vendor or Null the Gull to swap globally from knockback to knockdown (or vice versa). 

 

Again, this should be an option. A option removes ANY debate on if it should be knockback or knockdown. An option allows everyone to pick the way THEY want to play.

[PeregrineFalcon]

9 minutes ago, Zewks said:

Again, this should be an option. A option removes ANY debate on if it should be knockback or knockdown. An option allows everyone to pick the way THEY want to play.

The thread with the developer post that Sunsette linked to was from January 2020, which just goes to show how long this debate has been going on. In it the suggestion was to make a toggle that would cost no endurance and turn all knockback powers into knockdown powers. That seems like an option that would meet all of your criteria.

 

However, even that won't allow people to play they way they want to play. Because, while in teams, people will be likely be told to turn their KB->KD toggle on or get kicked from the team. How is that "playing the way they want to play?"

 

The IOs that we actually have in game now allow people to slot some knockback powers for knockdown and not others. This allows players more flexibility in that they can set many abilities to just knockdown while still maintaining the ability to do knockback when they feel the need to.