knockback Proposed Knockback modifcation/fix

[Sunsette]

Don't get me %&~%ing started on Force Feedback. The only thing that keeps Force Feedback from being straight absurd is that it doesn't play well with pseudopets and toggles, but my best Force Feedback users are natural knockdown powers, which are just about everywhere on damage sets that weren't at launch. You know what set has a hard time actually slipping Force Feedback into enough powers to have high uptime on it?

 

Yeah it's the same one I've been complaining about. SURPRISE.

 

(I am sure a bunch of people are going to rush to tell me that they can totally do it and you know what? So can I! But it takes way more effort and thinking on the original KB damage set to use the one actually fun KB IO in the game than on a bunch of incidentals that will never even look twice at a knockback set io otherwise.)

[KelvinKole]

Im not particularly bothered by knockback, and don’t really play any characters that heavily utilize it, so I’ve abstained from commenting here. But, in a lack of restraint, here goes something. …

 

Is the problem a lack of control over when a particular power does knockback? Sets like energy blast have it coded in to all of the powers, but sometimes either the player or their teammates doesn’t desire that effect. However, other than standing completed idle, or I guess slotting kb to kd in every power, and energy blaster doesn’t have control over it. If there was a mechanic that allowed the player to have better control over it, would that help? 
 

Let’s say all energy blast powers were changed to only do knockback when the player was within X range of the target. If I’m less than X, my powers will do knockback so I can get things out of my or an ally’s face. If I’m greater than X, my powers will not do knockback (but maybe have a different effect). Some specific powers with intentional 100% chance to knockback would not be changed, so players can still count on those for the desired effect no matter what (torrents, bonfire, gale, etc).

[Zewks]

Refraining from making changes out of "Fear of people having issues with it" is not valid reasoning when people ALREADY have issues with things.

 

The key is to find which situation creates the least amount of issues.

 

Right now, players dont have a choice.  If they (for example) play a Energy Blaster, they dont get invited to groups, or worse, get kicked from groups. This creates a HORRIBLE experience for that player, and its not based on anything they did wrong. Especially new characters. Especially those that dont have knowledge of the KB->KD IO.

 

While a global switch would still not do away with people refusing to use it and causing issues, it WOULD allow those who ARE willing to use it to not be shunned and kicked from group content.

 

You dont stop sending food to starving countries just because people still end up dying of starvation. If a change can help SOME of the problem its better than helping NONE of the problem.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Zewks

[Sunsette]

While I am all for help to Energy Blast sets, imx, I have neither been kicked from groups on HC nor seen groups kick people for being EB. Even when they weren't using their KB well. At most some disgruntled whispering about the guy knocking mobs everywhere even after asked to stop.

 

I'm sure it does happen, but I don't feel it happens as much as it did on live. 

[Super Atom]

5 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

While I am all for help to Energy Blast sets, imx, I have neither been kicked from groups on HC nor seen groups kick people for being EB. Even when they weren't using their KB well. At most some disgruntled whispering about the guy knocking mobs everywhere even after asked to stop.

 

I'm sure it does happen, but I don't feel it happens as much as it did on live. 

 

It doesn't happen much, though I've seen it a couple times. I always bail on the team when it does. It hasn't happened at all since HC dropped in players

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, Sunsette said:

 

 

The big issue is damage-focused powers that carry knockback, which is primarily a blast set issue and especially an Energy Blast issue. 

 

 

Overwhelming Force's KB>KD already enhances damage.  So what is the problem?

[Super Atom]

7 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

Overwhelming Force's KB>KD already enhances damage.  So what is the problem?

 

That's a 1 power unique IO (the enhanced damage would be lower than a proc as a side note). Energy blast features 8 abilities with knockback and if you're being nice, 3 with knockback that would cause frustration. So assuming you put the IO into 1, that's still 2 that have multiple enemy Knockback or have it changed to KB at the cost of damage.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Super Atom

[Sunsette]

24 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

Overwhelming Force's KB>KD already enhances damage.  So what is the problem?

 

1. ...once. you can use it once.
2. It's not as reliable as Sudden Acceleration (though that's a minor issue) because it has its own independent kd chance and two kds that fire at the same time have a multiplication effect.
3. Damage capping within six slots isn't really the trick at max level it's doing that while grabbing good set bonuses and procs. Blast sets typically are optimally taken to five slot bonuses. While other blast sets that are better in other respects can five slot and spend the last on a useful proc, Energy Blast has to risk the slot machine on Torrent and Blast or get KB to KD just to get consistent performance. Nova in particular is absolutely unusable outside of PvP, KB neutering immobs, or very niche situations without KB to KD IO.
4. Before max level, that's still a major speed bump on the full development of a power. Everyone else gets their special toy procs later, NRG wants to do it ASAP.
5. Compared to Archery and Assault Rifle, which also have ExBlast clones  Energy Blast wants to play in your face to use Nova as it currently exists, while these two have T9s at range. This makes the terrible Explosive Blast your other go-to AoE and also even worse if it does KB because at PB range it is a mini Nova scatter. 
6. As a result I will generally spend spend Overwhelming Force on Blast and proc it heavily since it's a very bad power otherwise, weigh skipping Torrent based on the build, and 5 slot the Very Rare in Nova with Sudden Acceleration just to get a slightly worse version of the DP T9. This gets even messier with Sentinels who are expected to use Mag 16 power push rotationally but have 60 ft. range

Edited July 14, 2021 by Sunsette

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Zewks said:

Refraining from making changes out of "Fear of people having issues with it" is not valid reasoning when people ALREADY have issues with things.

 

The key is to find which situation creates the least amount of issues.

 

Right now, players dont have a choice.  If they (for example) play a Energy Blaster, they dont get invited to groups, or worse, get kicked from groups. This creates a HORRIBLE experience for that player, and its not based on anything they did wrong. Especially new characters. Especially those that dont have knowledge of the KB->KD IO.

 

While a global switch would still not do away with people refusing to use it and causing issues, it WOULD allow those who ARE willing to use it to not be shunned and kicked from group content.

 

You dont stop sending food to starving countries just because people still end up dying of starvation. If a change can help SOME of the problem its better than helping NONE of the problem.

 

They don't have a choice to what?  What do they not have a choice in?

 

You're exaggerating to try and build a foundation for your argument.  Most people don't kick in this game because most would rather just skim through the content for the reward rather than throw hissy fits.  Even with completely horrendous KB use, you're looking at extending a TF/SF by maybe 5 min if they don't just outright skip as much of the content as possible to get the whole thing over with.  Even if you get kicked, teams are a dime-a-dozen on blue.

 

I think the solution that is currently available is fine and I don't even ever use the KB/KD crutch.

 

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

That's a 1 power unique IO (the enhanced damage would be lower than a proc as a side note). Energy blast features 8 abilities with knockback and if you're being nice, 3 with knockback that would cause frustration. So assuming you put the IO into 1, that's still 2 that have multiple enemy Knockback or have it changed to KB at the cost of damage.

 

1 minute ago, Sunsette said:

 

1. ...once. you can use it once.
2. It's not as reliable as Sudden Acceleration (though that's a minor issue) because it has its own independent kd chance and two kds that fire at the same time have a multiplication effect.
3. Damage capping within six slots isn't really the trick, it's doing that while grabbing good set bonuses and procs. Blast sets typically are optimally taken to five slot bonuses. While other blast sets that are better in other respects can five slot and spend the last on a useful proc, Energy Blast has to risk the slot machine on Torrent and Blast or get KB to KD just to get consistent performance. Nova in particular is absolutely unusable outside of PvP, KB neutering immobs, or very niche situations without KB to KD IO.
4. As a result I will generally spend spend Overwhelming Force on Blast and proc it heavily since it's a very bad power otherwise, weigh skipping Torrent based on the build, and 5 slot the Very Rare in Nova with Sudden Acceleration just to get a slightly worse version of the DP T9. This gets even messier with Sentinels who are expected to use Mag 16 power push rotationally.

 

The the solution looks like it's putting an enhancement value into Sudden Acceleration...like I said in the beginning.

 

As for the point about procs and IO bonuses: moot.  You are getting an advantage you're sacrificing a slot for just the same as if I take my Peace Bringer and put procs instead of KB>KD.  You are not getting nothing for the slot and you'd be getting a bit more if, for example, Sudden Acceleration had some kind of enhancement added to it which is the easiest solution.

[Sunsette]

Damage would be better than nothing, and help solve the leveling issue -- but without other changes that basically just means the platonic max level slotting choice for NRG becomes six slot Sudden Acceleration.

 

If that was paired with SA getting its fifth and six set piece bonuses swapped I think that would be good, and I might add that to my Knockback IO topic.

 

But I still don't feel great about a poorly designed powerset needing a specific IO to work. We don't have that many new players, so I suppose it's a minor issue.

 

You can declare points moot, but that doesn't make them so; it is not taking an IO to get an advantage, it's taking an IO to make a core power behave in ways that are intuitive for teaming or even for soloing in the case of Sentinels, multiplied over most of your damage powers. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Sunsette

[Naraka]

4 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

 

But I still don't feel great about a poorly designed powerset needing a specific IO to work.

 

GOOD NEWS!

 

It doesn't.

[Sunsette]

Yeah, okay, play an Energy Blast Sentinel to your 40s without the IO and tell me "this feels fun and intuitive"

 

I mean if you do and you genuinely feel that way, then more power to you, and I notice you have very different opinions.

 

But I don't think that's likely. 

 

Going to further point out that the professional developers of the game certainly seem more likely to agree with me than you on this since every powerset designed after Energy Blast behaves at most like Energy Blast does with that IO, even the second set designed entirely around knocks, *and* gets additional benefits or damage on top of that. So you're spending an IO to get a weaker version of your own powerset. This is not comparable to how Storm Summoning or Bonfire change.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Sunsette

[Super Atom]

15 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

Yeah, okay, play an Energy Blast Sentinel to your 40s without the IO and tell me "this feels fun and intuitive"

 

I mean if you do and you genuinely feel that way, then more power to you, and I notice you have very different opinions.

 

But I don't think that's likely. 

 

That's not gonna happen and not saying Naraka is/will do this, but most people will just claim they like whatever it is the way it is and never actually play it (see EM pre-changes) Energy Blast doesn't flow together at all, especially in blaster when you knock enemies away from your melee powers.

 

27 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

As for the point about procs and IO bonuses: moot.  You are getting an advantage you're sacrificing a slot for just the same as if I take my Peace Bringer and put procs instead of KB>KD.  You are not getting nothing for the slot and you'd be getting a bit more if, for example, Sudden Acceleration had some kind of enhancement added to it which is the easiest solution.

 

It's not an advantage it's an even level to other blasters to be remotely competitive in damage output don't call it something it isn't.

 

Peace bringers and Warshades are so far f#$@#d literally any thing that makes it smoother feels like a world of relief, not a great comparison.

 

Damage in those KB>KD would make a lot of complaints die out, so you right.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Super Atom

[Koopak]

I dont personally think the fact one, very old, powerset being poorly designed is much of a reason for the proppsed changes though. Energy Blast needs a balancing pass, not a new kb toggle io.

 

Also this is not equivalent to not sending food to starving people because you cant feed them all and that insinuation is just dumb. We HAVE a working solution, and I dont think anyone is opposing this change because it isnt perfect. Im opposing it because I believe it is actively harmful.

 

To use that obsurd analogy, id say this proposal is like replacing said food with week old mcdonalds. Thats not an improvement and is likely worse than continuing to do what we already are.

[Naraka]

34 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

Yeah, okay, play an Energy Blast Sentinel to your 40s without the IO and tell me "this feels fun and intuitive"

 

I mean if you do and you genuinely feel that way, then more power to you, and I notice you have very different opinions.

 

But I don't think that's likely. 

 

Going to further point out that the professional developers of the game certainly seem more likely to agree with me than you on this since every powerset designed after Energy Blast behaves at most like Energy Blast does with that IO, even the second set designed entirely around knocks, *and* gets additional benefits or damage on top of that. So you're spending an IO to get a weaker version of your own powerset. This is not comparable to how Storm Summoning or Bonfire change.

 

I'd say, there are other powersets to choose from then.

 

As for the last statement, that sounds like you've found your personal solution right there.

 

24 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

It's not an advantage it's an even level to other blasters to be remotely competitive in damage output don't call it something it isn't.

 

 

Only if you do not value mitigation or the ability to spam abilities wantonly.  So it's basically gotten to, if it doesn't do more damage, it's not an advantage and that mentality seems more prevalent the higher level you go.  It's one reason I don't play in those ranges because of how out of whack it is...but people seem to keep wanting to push the *entire game* into the same loop.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Naraka said:

 

Only if you do not value mitigation or the ability to spam abilities wantonly.  So it's basically gotten to, if it doesn't do more damage, it's not an advantage and that mentality seems more prevalent the higher level you go.  It's one reason I don't play in those ranges because of how out of whack it is...but people seem to keep wanting to push the *entire game* into the same loop.

 

Putting a damage proc or any other kind of IO instead of a KB>KD is the issue. It's literally forcing you to because of the sets design being knockback the musical. As i've said before, I love energy blast so i just deal with it. However if you look at the set compared to other blaster sets it seemingly has a strong force of hand that the others don't. Now you could just not have those IO's and knock everything around like wild but we've been over that a thousand times. This is an issue at low level, maybe even more so because scattering enemies early game can be a death sentence if your team doesn't have good ST characters.

 

6 minutes ago, Koopak said:

I dont personally think the fact one, very old, powerset being poorly designed is much of a reason for the proppsed changes though. Energy Blast needs a balancing pass, not a new kb toggle io.

 

Also this is not equivalent to not sending food to starving people because you cant feed them all and that insinuation is just dumb. We HAVE a working solution, and I dont think anyone is opposing this change because it isnt perfect. Im opposing it because I believe it is actively harmful.

 

To use that obsurd analogy, id say this proposal is like replacing said food with week old mcdonalds. Thats not an improvement and is likely worse than continuing to do what we already are.

 

Honestly we've moved beyond that as a solution and have just been casually talking about energy blast and KB IO's off topic and to the dismay of a GM or two I'm sure.

[Naraka]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

 

Putting a damage proc or any other kind of IO instead of a KB>KD is the issue. It's literally forcing you to because of the sets design being knockback the musical. As i've said before, I love energy blast so i just deal with it. However if you look at the set compared to other blaster sets it seemingly has a strong force of hand that the others don't. Now you could just not have those IO's and knock everything around like wild but we've been over that a thousand times. This is an issue at low level, maybe even more so because scattering enemies early game can be a death sentence if your team doesn't have good ST characters.

 

 

What team doesn't have good ST?  I play almost exclusively early game and not having good ST has never been an issue.  Not on MM, not on Blaster, not on even Defender and if you're a controller, you can proc a hold if you'd like.

 

In fact, I'd argue the complete opposite: KB early game is a saving grace since you likely suffer from weaker slotting and fewer people have massive high-powered AoEs except perhaps Blasters in the late 20s, early 30s.  It's also a lot more likely control will actually do something, from stopping foes from killing you to...stopping your KB from scattering.

 

I think you're also committing some exaggeration.  At best, it might be an inconvenience if groups of enemies are very close together AND you somehow aggro them by specifically knocking a toggle anchor into the other group.

[Ghost]

4 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I was having a discussion with the OP, disagreeing with him, and trying to get him to see the mistakes in the way he was phrasing things. I was not deceiving him about anything, nor was I trying to get him to question his sanity. Having a disagreement with someone is NOT gaslighting. Gaslighting is something that takes place over months or years.

 

And, unless you are psychic, and can read my mind, you do not get to tell me that I am gaslighting someone. You can not read my mind. You clearly do not understand why I am doing anything. You clearly do not understand the difference between a disagreement and gaslighting, so I suggest that you speak to a professional who can explain it to you in a way that you'll understand.

 

And now you're 0 for 3, Iron Joe. Third strike - you're out.  😉

 

The problem is the way you went about disagreeing with him.

You came across as petty. 

You attacked a sentence, not necessarily his argument  Maybe you didn't mean to, but that's how it came across. 

 

Things are phrased in misleading ways all the time - ever look at movie posters or movie advertisements?  

With the way you took offense to the way he phrased something, I'm guessing you don't watch movies or TV shows.

Guess you also don't watch sports, read books/comics or buy any type of products.

Heck, why are you even on the internet?

Because EVERYTHING is phrased in a misleading way in order to sell you.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Ghost

[Naraka]

@Ghost, you need to be careful with targeted insults.  You're gonna get your post deleted that way.

[Super Atom]

7 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

What team doesn't have good ST?  I play almost exclusively early game and not having good ST has never been an issue.  Not on MM, not on Blaster, not on even Defender and if you're a controller, you can proc a hold if you'd like.

 

In fact, I'd argue the complete opposite: KB early game is a saving grace since you likely suffer from weaker slotting and fewer people have massive high-powered AoEs except perhaps Blasters in the late 20s, early 30s.  It's also a lot more likely control will actually do something, from stopping foes from killing you to...stopping your KB from scattering.

 

I think you're also committing some exaggeration.  At best, it might be an inconvenience if groups of enemies are very close together AND you somehow aggro them by specifically knocking a toggle anchor into the other group.

 

Oh ho i wouldn't be throwing around the exaggeration claim, that's the primary defense tactic of people who hype up KB ever being used to save people.

 

Most people don't have great ST early game, be it the powers or slotting but ST is usually not great overall and neither is AOE but AOE is stronger than ST in current coh, even early AOE. I do a lot of TF's and I've seen early level people knock stuff around and because everyone spaces out aggro slips and often support can't aoe heal everyone and it falls apart quick (see posi part 1). Just as I've seen people knock enemies back into AoE's. It happens on both areas, idk why you'd claim it doesn't that's just not true.

 

We're also not talking about +0 or +1 here. Those baby difficulties don't count for anything.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Super Atom

[Ghost]

3 minutes ago, Naraka said:

@Ghost, you need to be careful with targeted insults.  You're gonna get your post deleted that way.

😞

didnt think it came across as a targeted insult - just an observation.  Hopefully I cleaned it up enough 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Ghost

[golstat2003]

I don't think KB is an issue, so I DO NOT agree that it's a problem. I've teamed with plenty of folks over the years that have used KB correctly and as a great mitigation tool.

 

So without saying, I agree with the HC devs expressed view on it.

 

The KB>KD IO imo is good enough.

[Naraka]

Just now, Super Atom said:

 

Oh ho i wouldn't be throwing around the exaggeration claim, that's the primary defense tactic of people who hype up KB ever being used to save people.

 

Most people don't have great ST early game, be it the powers or slotting but ST is usually not great overall and neither is AOE but AOE is stronger than ST in current coh, even early AOE. I do a lot of TF's and I've seen early level people knock stuff around and because everyone spaces out aggro slips and often support can't aoe heal everyone and it falls apart quick (see posi part 1). Just as I've seen people knock enemies back into AoE's. It happens on both areas, idk why you'd claim it doesn't that's just not true.

 

You're not really making your point though.  What is "great ST"?  What metric is used to decide if you reach that benchmark?  Because, AFAIK, focus firing on a hard target is the easiest way to take down STs and if you have a team, everyone will have a ST attack to use.

 

And ST is not great...that's just false.  Otherwise, I'd be seeing people making DPS rotations using AoEs.  By the teens, you're looking at having *at least* ONE staple ST attacks whether that's Blazing Arrow, Gambler's Cut, Smite, Suppressive Fire, etc.  Having 2 or 3 team members with similarly decent ST attacks will get you through a lot.  And slotting?  Boy, do you even remember where you came from!?  We have SOs at level 1.  If we could survive on DOs up until the early 20s, how on Earth could what you say have been true for over 10 years?!

 

And your fabricated scenario merely sounds like standard fodder, not life or death.  Half the time the exemplared folk have high-end IO bonuses to get them through anyway.  Outside of the whole ST vs AoE argument, I'm not sure I can take you seriously...

[Sunsette]

40 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Only if you do not value mitigation or the ability to spam abilities wantonly.  So it's basically gotten to, if it doesn't do more damage, it's not an advantage and that mentality seems more prevalent the higher level you go.  It's one reason I don't play in those ranges because of how out of whack it is...but people seem to keep wanting to push the *entire game* into the same loop.

 

I want *consistency* and I want *choice*. Explosive Blast and Energy Torrent are slot machines that fail at consistent mitigation. Power Push on Sentinels is pushing an enemy out of your own short reach, forcing you to do movement or use Aim for a range boost, both of which are times you're not doing anything else, yet it's designed to be rotational. Nova does great mitigation and good damage at significant personal risk to a blaster who isn't majorly IOed out or coordinating with a tank; with a tank, if you don't either finish them or have some way to keep the scatter, the tank is going to be more upset with you than pleased short of a very well-timed wipe prevention, which I think I've seen like... once. And yet, it's again designed to be used every pack on the Sent.

 

Energy Blast currently offers bad, unreliable, occasionally powerful mitigation and unexceptional damage. A KB to KD IO changes it to 'below average damage with consistent but weak mitigation'. The natural thing to reach for in response is damage, but it's not the only thing that could be done to fix the set.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Sunsette

[Super Atom]

6 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

You're not really making your point though.  What is "great ST"?  What metric is used to decide if you reach that benchmark?  Because, AFAIK, focus firing on a hard target is the easiest way to take down STs and if you have a team, everyone will have a ST attack to use.

 

And ST is not great...that's just false.  Otherwise, I'd be seeing people making DPS rotations using AoEs.  By the teens, you're looking at having *at least* ONE staple ST attacks whether that's Blazing Arrow, Gambler's Cut, Smite, Suppressive Fire, etc.  Having 2 or 3 team members with similarly decent ST attacks will get you through a lot.  And slotting?  Boy, do you even remember where you came from!?  We have SOs at level 1.  If we could survive on DOs up until the early 20s, how on Earth could what you say have been true for over 10 years?!

 

And your fabricated scenario merely sounds like standard fodder, not life or death.  Half the time the exemplared folk have high-end IO bonuses to get them through anyway.  Outside of the whole ST vs AoE argument, I'm not sure I can take you seriously...

 

See now you're just being rude because someone disagrees with you, that's where conversation breaks down. It's one thing to go "eh maybe you're adding on" it's entirely another to call it a lie or someone a liar. You also completely misused what i said to argue a point i did not make. ST "not being great" early game is a fact, you don't get your strong ST attacks until later. AoE is king of CoH end game meta it's all about how good your AoE is while ST is still important, having good AoE is more important (again see EM changes). Though since you were rude, I've lost most interest in talking to you. (that means i won't reply further)

Edited July 14, 2021 by Super Atom