Uncomfortable/Creepy Player Conduct

[laudwic]

On 8/3/2021 at 5:17 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

The DEVs/GM are taking the higher path. (Do I need to say that's my opinion? Shouldn't have to, but it seems appropriate in this case)

You are in your rights to disagree.

They are well within their rights to take the stance they decide to take as well.

They are the ones that will be making the final decision.

 

I'm going back in to add this.

 

You don't seem to be too knowledgeable about the City of Heroes.

You can rename your characters at any time.

Renaming your global? haven't tried, but a support ticket would probably make that happen in the worse case.

No need so much to do either in most cases. If you put the offending character on ignore you are invisible their searches and you don't get their message. If someone isn't on your global friend list, then you aren't on theirs. 

 

Also. There are RPG groups and clubs that have meetings. Check Clubs - there is a Roleplay-A-Day club.

Some RPG groups have meetings in bases or in locations like you indicate. 

 

We really don't need the specifics of what went on.

Harassment is harassment regardless of where it is going on in THE CITY or otherwise.

(On person's kidding around can be harassment and that is where the line can get blurry. Sexual innuendos and what not are pretty clearly harassment.)

 

Oh, the DEVs here are tech and ethics savvy. They can deal with offenders on multiple levels as they feel it is necessary.

 

Ok, lets unpack this one.

 

The main developer comes on and says the following:

 

On 7/30/2021 at 9:13 AM, GM Kaiju said:

We take these situations very seriously and do act on them. However, every situation is different, and we unfortunately cannot discuss any outcomes, including what actions were taken.

 

I take issue at the idea they they cannot say anything.  I find those two statements contradictory as I do not believe any restrictions exist for revealing player disciple, especially if the information is revealed only to an aggrieved party.  If that kind of information is not revealed to the aggrieved party, it is very easy for them to perceive, rightly or wrongly, that the GMs do not, in fact, take these situations very seriously and that they do not act on them.

 

Another poster says there were all kinds of consumer protection laws that prevent disclosure.  I've asked what those were, just give me the citations.  To date, there has been no posting.

 

You can certainly take the GM's refusal to provide any transparency on player discipline as a 'higher path' and I can still certainly believe that such secrecy is harmful in the long run.

 

While your certainly correct that I know little about the role playing community here as I am not part of it. 

 

The remainder of your suggestion that I do not know much of this game is inaccurate as you clearly read the part of the post that you seem to be attacking.  Lets look at it again: 

On 7/30/2021 at 3:01 PM, laudwic said:

Also, it may make sense, and I'm sorry I don't know the technical side of this, to assist a victim in changing a global name or character names to facilitate avoiding an individual.  A CoH Witness Protection Program if you will.  Players can migrate characters to other servers and do name or costume changes on their own.

 

Hum, your post above does not know how to change global names (after a little research check the menu for Global Handle) but the part you seek to discredit me on is character name and server.  You seem to have misread my earlier post.  

 

I certainly agree that the Devs are tech savvy, ethics is another question.  I can't say the Devs are great, good, bad or terrible when it comes to ethics.

 

The Devs can certainly deal with issues when they arise, unfortunately we will not know if they actually dealt with an issue or if they did so in a savvy manner as they have chosen silence.  Without information as to how they have dealt with issues, no one can say with the slightest bit of certainty that the Devs have behaved in a savvy or even minimally acceptable way.

 

Their choice, their game.  We'll see if it is helpful to the long term community.

 

What would have been helpful is if the GMs clarified their statement by saying why they can't (IF those laws exist this would be a great time to point to them) or simply say we believe it is in the best interest of Homecoming going forward to keep player issues confidential in all cases. 

[GM Kaiju]

3 hours ago, laudwic said:

 

Ok, lets unpack this one.

 

The main developer comes on and says the following:

 

Quote

 

What would have been helpful is if the GMs clarified their statement by saying why they can't (IF those laws exist this would be a great time to point to them) or simply say we believe it is in the best interest of Homecoming going forward to keep player issues confidential in all cases. 

 

Two clarifications — the first is I’m a Lead GM (one of several), not a developer. I don’t work with game code, I enforce the Code of Conduct. 
 

The second is the same Code of Conduct clearly outlines the HC policy on what we do and do not discuss:

 

Please also be aware that if you report another player we will not discuss the actions that we take against them (if any) with you. Any actions taken are only discussed with the player in question and are considered confidential unless that player requests otherwise.

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/code-of-conduct/#violations-and-enforcement

Edited August 4, 2021 by GM Kaiju

[GraspingVileTerror]

The question of ethics is a difficult one . . . particularly due to the complication of legality.

It's important to remember:  Ethical actions are not necessarily legal actions, and legal actions aren't necessarily ethical.  As it stands, Homecoming appears to be more concerned with legality, as the game is balanced on a razor's edge with concerns regarding C&Ds or DMCAs or lawsuits, et cetera.

It's a topic I too would really like to see addressed in more detail, particularly if the Homecoming Team even drafted up an internal Code of Ethics.  The last time we tried to tackle it, there was a LOT of people talking past one another, and the thread got locked.

 

So . . .

Yeah.

Not the place.

 

Although, one more slight tangent before trying to swing things back to the original topics:
@GM Kaiju (or any of the GMs, Homecoming Team, et cetera); perhaps it would be valuable to integrate the definitions and roles of the Core Team, GMs (Prime, Lead, and other ranks), and Devs, then post it to the main FAQ.   Something to consider, perhaps?  Just kind of help players who aren't familiar with the distinctions wrap their heads around the differences.

 

 

But trying to circle back to the original topic:

Something that is a little nebulous, and perhaps part of the issue, is where different people draw the lines between "uncomfortable" and "creepy."

Strictly speaking, the Code of Conduct makes a point to restrict "sexually explicit" content, but unless there's a specific Ratings Board's system which Homecoming is using, I understand the definition of "sexually explicit" to be in the hands of each GM.  As we saw in the previous ERP thread (linked in my first reply here), things are kept relatively nebulous for the purposes of discretionary latitude.

 

But maybe players who feel someone has crossed the line with them could give us some idea of where they draw their personal lines for comfort.

Naturally:  I am not asking anyone to post anything graphic or gratuitous as an example.  If someone is unable to describe their personal limits without crossing that same line, then we may be at an impasse. 

I'm mostly just curious if anyone draws their personal line at a private Tell of "Hey!  Nice outfit!" 

[Arctique]

1 hour ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

But maybe players who feel someone has crossed the line with them could give us some idea of where they draw their personal lines for comfort.

Naturally:  I am not asking anyone to post anything graphic or gratuitous as an example.  If someone is unable to describe their personal limits without crossing that same line, then we may be at an impasse. 

I'm mostly just curious if anyone draws their personal line at a private Tell of "Hey!  Nice outfit!" 

 

The way I look at it is, the "creepiness" comes less from what specifically is being said, and more just the other factors around it being said. Like for instance, somebody you've never interacted with at all sending sexually suggestive messages completely unprompted. Or continuing to make advances after you've asked them not to or otherwise clearly expressed you are not interested. Or even in cases where maybe you have expressed interest in ERP with them, and then they start making sexual advances OOC as well that you didn't consent to (just because you said yes to one thing, does not mean you said yes to everything).

 

In situations like those, it's not the exact words being said that's the problem, but that the person is saying them to begin with. If the person receiving it hasn't shown that they're open to it, and/or has specifically said they are not open to it, then going against that to make those sexual advances anyway is uncomfortable and creepy.

[Dark Dove]

1 hour ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

I'm mostly just curious if anyone draws their personal line at a private Tell of "Hey!  Nice outfit!"

 

I get these kinds of tells all the time on a variety of alts that I play, or similarly "Hey! Nice bio!" or both (humblebrag?!!). There is a line that gets crossed beyond that though, I've often wandered through pocket D just trying to visit Null the Gull or the P2W vendor and gotten tells that first say they like how my character is bio/outfit and second how their character would (with a highly suggestive wording) react or act around my character. At that point I either just say Thanks or I don't say anything and I move along as quickly as possible. The difference is in the suggestive nature, most of the time I am super happy to receive a positive tell about my creative use of the costume editor or the 1023 word bio and I almost always make a note about how someone said something nice and so they end up with stars over their heads. Adding some suggestive language along with that usually sours me to any further interaction, though. Not that I don't want people to do their thing, it's just not something I find draws me in as a first impression, and it's just a line that when crossed means I probably won't have anything to do with that person at that point in time.

 

I usually don't bother putting someone on ignore for that, or even putting a negative note about them, because the account system means that they can just switch to an alt account and take their shot again.  It's never been aggressive enough so far to warrant needing a report either.  Admittedly I don't usually play at peak times though, so my experience might be significantly different from others.

 

I take these kinds of tells within context of City of Heroes, so for me "Hey! Nice outfit!" is 100% appropriate for that context to say to someone.  Outside of that context it would need to be reevaluated though.

[Arctique]

36 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

I take these kinds of tells within context of City of Heroes, so for me "Hey! Nice outfit!" is 100% appropriate for that context to say to someone.  Outside of that context it would need to be reevaluated though.

 

There's usually a pretty clear difference between what's just a simple compliment on a costume, and a more "creepy" comment I feel. It's like somebody on the street just saying "Hey, nice shirt!" vs. "Hey, nice shirt, it makes your boobs look good!" one of those will get a response of "oh thanks!" while the other gets a slap in the face and I'm sure it needs no saying which one gets which response.

[Hyperstrike]

12 hours ago, laudwic said:

I take issue at the idea they they cannot say anything.  I find those two statements contradictory as I do not believe any restrictions exist for revealing player disciple, especially if the information is revealed only to an aggrieved party.  If that kind of information is not revealed to the aggrieved party, it is very easy for them to perceive, rightly or wrongly, that the GMs do not, in fact, take these situations very seriously and that they do not act on them.

 

It's not that they CANNOT.

They WILL NOT.

Because, frankly, it's NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS.  Even the person lodging the complaint.

The most you have an expectation of, as a complaintant, is the GMs telling you "We'll take care of this." as you put the offender on ignore.

Beyond that, you are owed nothing.

What someone perceives beyond that?  Frankly, is that person's problem.  NOBODY ELSE.

Again, community "drama" is corrosive and will kill the community faster than anything else (save maybe lawyers, and THEY are corrosive in their own way).

You are playing a game, provided to you FOR FREE (AS IS).
You get the choice to either enjoy the game or not.
And tools are provided to you, as if you were a real, live ADULT, to allow you to tailor your exposure to others.

The fact that you have GMs at all is a blessing.

 

12 hours ago, laudwic said:

Another poster says there were all kinds of consumer protection laws that prevent disclosure.  I've asked what those were, just give me the citations.  To date, there has been no posting.

 

Look up defamation.  Libel.

Are most of the people here going to sue them for libel?
No.
But every community has their share of crazies.
 

 

12 hours ago, laudwic said:

You can certainly take the GM's refusal to provide any transparency on player discipline as a 'higher path' and I can still certainly believe that such secrecy is harmful in the long run.

 

Everyone's entitled to be wrong every now and again.  Even you.

 

I'm sorry if the GMs responses aren't "good enough" for you.

But they're all you're getting.

Hopefully you can find a way to make peace with that.

[TheZag]

Seems very similar to an employer not telling a customer if the employee they complained about got punished or not.

 

If they did reveal punishments,  you can be sure that many of those that filed the original complaints would complain again that the punishments werent harsh enough or didnt satisfy them.

[Ghost]

For me the line is clear.

if I receive a tell, or even a comment in RL, and I ask the person to stop - that’s the line.

 

Its not about what you deem appropriate.  It’s what the person receiving is comfortable with.

This doesn’t mean every instance of crossing the line is dealt with the same way.  
Some are innocent, and some are not. 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Ghost

[teamtr]

15 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

But maybe players who feel someone has crossed the line with them could give us some idea of where they draw their personal lines for comfort.

Naturally:  I am not asking anyone to post anything graphic or gratuitous as an example.  If someone is unable to describe their personal limits without crossing that same line, then we may be at an impasse. 

I'm mostly just curious if anyone draws their personal line at a private Tell of "Hey!  Nice outfit!" 

 

I'm fine with most tells along those lines. I'm even fine with tells that start with "hey cool character, wanna ERP?" because I can simply say no and move on with my day.

 

Where I cross the line is sending anything explicit without initial consent. I'm a legal adult and very few things faze me anymore, but not everyone playing this game is. No one should ever just start spouting off their favorite fetishes, write explicit emotes, include racy information in their bio, or send explicit tells unprompted.

 

Hell, I don't even feel comfortable making dirty jokes, excessive PDA, or using language above PG-13 levels when I'm in more public spaces. If I include anything on the edge, such as descriptions of something people might be squicked out by, then I might put a disclaimer in front of my emote ("(CW: emetophobia)", for example).

 

I see far too many people being frankly kind of way too flirtatious and excessive. I'd be fine with that if they were around players who they know are cool with it, but often times they'll do it upon first introduction. (We've all met at least one demon/catgirl/cyborg who just out the gate starts making super dirty jokes or talking about their past experiences like water out of a faucet.)

 

Sidenote, regarding the debate on whether or not mods should let people know if their report did anything:

 

12 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

The most you have an expectation of, as a complaintant, is the GMs telling you "We'll take care of this." as you put the offender on ignore.

Beyond that, you are owed nothing.

What someone perceives beyond that?  Frankly, is that person's problem.  NOBODY ELSE.

Again, community "drama" is corrosive and will kill the community faster than anything else (save maybe lawyers, and THEY are corrosive in their own way).

 

In an ideal world, I would like if mods told reporters simply whether or not action was taken. Not any details beyond, just a simple message of "Your report factored into the mod's decision, and action was taken against this player."

 

HOWEVER. This is not an ideal world, and Hyperstrike is completely right. The more involved more parties become, the greater the chance of drama getting stirred up within the community as a whole, as well as the likelihood of spurious or vengeful reporting.

 

I know in my experience that when I'm mad enough at somebody's bad behavior to report them, I might be in a very vindictive mood at the moment I write and submit that report. Receiving any response at all beyond the canned "Thank you for your feedback" would only ever feed the flames, not help me feel a sense of closure. The only method that consistently calms me down in those moments is having time to cool off and let it go.

 

You know how celebrities get cancelled on Twitter, and then go on a campaign of apologizing for whatever they got cancelled for, but their response only seems to make the mob angrier and angrier? That's because ANY response means the situation must continue. If the celebrity wants the mob to get bored and move on quickly, the only response is zero response.

 

Comparatively, the best solution the mods can reach to ensure most reporters simply forget about the incident and move on is for their report to disappear into a black hole the moment they submit it. That might mean less closure for the reporter, but it also means less drama, less encouragement of toxic reporting behavior, and a culture of just reporting, blocking, and/or moving the hell on like adults.

Edited August 5, 2021 by teamtr

[laudwic]

12 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

It's not that they CANNOT.

They WILL NOT.

Because, frankly, it's NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS.  Even the person lodging the complaint

 

You may wish to read the prior posts as my objections was because one of the Lead Game Masters said: 

 

"However, every situation is different, and we unfortunately cannot discuss any outcomes, including what actions were taken."

 

Third post in, please feel free to confirm the quote.

 

My post is directly after, the forth post in this thread, where I take issue at the quoted statement that the GMS are able to make a statement but are choosing not to.

 

The same Lead Game Master later clarified that they are making a conscious decision not to share anything with anyone rather than some impediment, legal or otherwise.

 

Your ALL CAPS came after the GM clarified.  I thumbed it and then left it alone.

 

Your entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.

 

  

 

 

[Hyperstrike]

16 minutes ago, laudwic said:

You may wish to read the prior posts as my objections was because one of the Lead Game Masters said: 

 

"However, every situation is different, and we unfortunately cannot discuss any outcomes, including what actions were taken."

 

Third post in, please feel free to confirm the quote.

 

My post is directly after, the forth post in this thread, where I take issue at the quoted statement that the GMS are able to make a statement but are choosing not to.

 

The same Lead Game Master later clarified that they are making a conscious decision not to share anything with anyone rather than some impediment, legal or otherwise.

 

Your ALL CAPS came after the GM clarified.  I thumbed it and then left it alone.

 

Your entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.

Thank you for illustrating my point.

[Latex]

It's a private server in murky water concerning legality. While it's well run by the team it is still a private server not owned, ran or managed by the original creators in any way. Any talk of legality concerning what happens on the server can be wavered because it's blowing hot air, it has no ground to stand on.

 

The decent thing to do for those with access to the back-end chat logs is to discuss incidents as a team 'Yes this player is a problem, permabanned.' and not reveal the details to those that play on the server because it just begins a vortex of never-ending drama and back and forth, they are the arbiters and could ban anyone for anything if they so desired, there is no 'petition' system akin to a corporation like NCSoft might run, most likely this is why they wrote a 'Code of Conduct' so that the rulings they dish out are consistent.

 

As for being harassed I just global ignore, multibox is a problem if that is the case and it's not a one-off you've plenty of evidence to get them perma banned. It's a shit situation either way, I've been on the sharp end of some vile hate-tells myself, I just blank them then when I've screenshotted their rant show my friends, have a laugh, global ignore and move on.