What's hurting Dark Primary for Blasters?

[Solarverse]

I am curious what you guys think (or maybe you don't think) may be hurting Dark Primary (don't get me started on Secondaries) for Blasters.

 

Me personally, it boils down to two things. Umbral Torrent, and Tenebrous Tentacles.

 

Umbral Torrent: Yet another Knock Back. I know some people like Knock Backs, but to many players like myself, Knock Back is a bane we simply don't want, nor need... we hate it. By making it knock back, you pretty much involuntarily ostracized much of the player base...which if you skip the power, limits your options and your DPS potential. Not to mention, if you really want to pick at it, the animation to me is simply not visually appealing.

 

Tenebrous Tentacles: Maybe you agree, maybe you don't, (City of Heroes players can never agree on anything, lol) but the last thing a Blaster needs, is a Cone Immob that does craptastic damage. Blasters need AoE DPS, something that stings when you use it. Something that goes boom!

 

What do I believe the Blaster should have been given in their places? Glad you have asked!

 

To replace Umbral Torrent? I believe the Blaster should have been given a beefed up version of Night Fall. A Cone DoT attack with a wide cone area. Not to mention, the attack animation is very appealing to the eyes.

 

To replace Tenebrous Tentacles? I believe the Blaster should have been given a beefed up version of Engulfing Darkness. A Dark version of Irradiate and again, has a very nice animation and an AoE that the set needs if Tenebrous Tentacles were to be replaced.

 

Now this is just my opinion, some may agree, some may not, but this is City of Heroes...where all equally love the game, but none agree. So I am expecting half and half on this one. However, I don't mind if you disagree, but I am curious of how you would change the set if you could, or if you would leave it as is, and if you would leave it as is, I ask you...do you play a Dark Blaster?

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this. Hope to see how others view Dark Primary for Blasters. Would be nice if we all agreed, but something tells me, in good ol' City of Heroes tradition, we won't.  :D

[Pixie_Knight]

To be honest, when I play a blaster I'd love to have a cone or aoe immobilize. Enemies tyically do less damage at range then they do in melee. So keeping them from getting closer to me is a Good Thing. And knockback again helps keep things away from me. That is still a good thing. But if you really hate knockback, there is a set enhancement that converts it to knockdown instead. No, what I've always heard regarding to what holds dark blast back is that it's got some of the lowest damage to make up for being the least resisted damage type. And if you're fighting certain things like Dark Pantheon, they heavily resist it so you'd better have other stuff like Prestige attacks to pick up the slack.

[Primantis]

Would be nice if we all agreed, but something tells me, in good ol' City of Heroes tradition, we won't.  :D

 

Awww come on, we can agree to disagree! XD

 

 

But back on topic; as mentioned above if you slot the KB-->KD Io into Torrent it becomes a very nifty soft control power!

 

 

Dark Blast also has the ability to stack a decent amount of to-hit debuffs on your foe, comes with a heal and a hold. It's always been more of a slowish DPS that relied on all its support and soft control abilities to make it useful. Probably why it took ages for the Devs to bring it to Blasters. As it's design runs pretty counter to the "in your face, everything must die now" playstyle of the Blaster.

[Solarverse]

To be honest, when I play a blaster I'd love to have a cone or aoe immobilize. Enemies tyically do less damage at range then they do in melee. So keeping them from getting closer to me is a Good Thing. And knockback again helps keep things away from me. That is still a good thing. But if you really hate knockback, there is a set enhancement that converts it to knockdown instead. No, what I've always heard regarding to what holds dark blast back is that it's got some of the lowest damage to make up for being the least resisted damage type. And if you're fighting certain things like Dark Pantheon, they heavily resist it so you'd better have other stuff like Prestige attacks to pick up the slack.

 

Here is the problem I am having with that; Blasters are not Controllers. They lack in DPS for a control. I'm sure Controllers would love to do more DPS, but they are Controllers. We have DPS classes, just like we have controlling classes. Makes no sense to me why a Blaster should get a cone Immobilize when they should be having an AoE Damage ability in its place 

 

I get that you like it, however, it doesn't belong on a Blaster and it hurts the class and their role in the group.

 

Edited for typo.

[Solarverse]

Would be nice if we all agreed, but something tells me, in good ol' City of Heroes tradition, we won't.  :D

 

Awww come on, we can agree to disagree! XD

 

 

But back on topic; as mentioned above if you slot the KB-->KD Io into Torrent it becomes a very nifty soft control power!

 

 

Dark Blast also has the ability to stack a decent amount of to-hit debuffs on your foe, comes with a heal and a hold. It's always been more of a slowish DPS that relied on all its support and soft control abilities to make it useful. Probably why it took ages for the Devs to bring it to Blasters. As it's design runs pretty counter to the "in your face, everything must die now" playstyle of the Blaster.

 

I would love to do that if not for one thing; I am not a big fan of the stat bonuses that come with it. I would rather have a toggle that turns KB in to KD, if possible. But yes, there is that option if I get desperate enough...and I'm getting close, lol.

[Pixie_Knight]

Here's some things that you might be forgetting. Dark Blast was not orriginally a blaster set, it was a Defender set. Then later Corruptors got it too. Paragon Stuidos ported it to Blasters because players kept insisting they do so. But there's factors you're not taking into account.

 

Dark Blast has one of the least resisted damage types. This means it naturally was given lower damage. Blast sets that do all Lethal damage (the most resisted damage type) get the highest base damage to compensate.

 

Like other Blast sets, Dark Blast has attacks which are more utility and damage mitigation then damage focused. It just leans more heavily in the Utility & Damage Mitigation front. Most enemies do less damage with their ranged attacks then their melee attacks. Thus having a cone immobilize provides some nice damage mitigation, even if it doesn't do as much raw damage as the other blasts. Then again, I'm not sure if you noticed this but all aoe and cone attacks do less damage per target then single target attacks do. It's been a while since I used dark blast, but as I recall the per target damage for Tenebrous Tentacles is on par with that of the tier 1 attack. Or at least, it is after all the damage ticks go off. But again, it's a utility power intended to mitigate damage. Or do you take offense that Archery also has abilities which do very little damage, but mez the enemy instead? And I suppose you flat out ignore any blaster secondary power which doesn't do damage?

 

Wait, sorry. That was rude of me. But this has been argued about over and over again already.

 

Knockback is again a form of damage mitigation. If the enemy is ragdolling through the air or standing up, they are not doing any damage to you. If they were pounding you in melee and got sent flying backwards, they are no longer using those hard hitting melee attacks. And Umbral Torrent isn't even the only example of blasters using knockback to mitigate damage. Hell, the Energy Blast power set specializes in it.

 

It sounds to me @Solarverse that Dark Blast just isn't the power set for you. And you probably should avoid Energy Blast too. But that's okay. Not everyone has to like every archtype or power set.

[Without_Pause]

KB can be offset with Hover. DB also has a heal and -tohit. I can see a complaint in that it is DoT heavy where blasters want something with more upfront damage, but I have liked the set so far. Not every set has to be awesome to you.

[Solarverse]

Snip

 

I honestly don't even know where to start with you. You emmediately engaged me with combative arguments and even went out of your way to toss insults.

 

I won't go there with you. What I will say is that you are entitled to your opinion about the set...as am I. And the fact that you say this has been debated to death, does not mean you win here, it means that nobody has been persuaded either way.

 

And please do not presume to tell me what sets are and are not for me. My main is an Energy/Energy Blaster and yes, I know how to work with Knock Backs. I also know their downfalls...as in setting up the right angles before firing. I also know that in end game, by time you set up, most often than not, the mobs are all but gone.

 

Nothing you have said has proven any case. I simply pointed out the set's downfall and why MANY players find Dark Blasters to be the red headed stepchild of Blasters...and what I felt COULD have been done to make the set better, and actually represent the class...not mimic another class.

 

So please, try not to come at me on so.e type of personal level. Let's talk with one another as if we were face to face, not as though we were behind computers. Never know, you might actually form a bit of respect for me if you do.  ;)

 

 

[Rumors]

Abrasive or not, Pixie is a bit correct.  Dark Blast is originally intended as a Defender blast set,  If you look at the powers, they're more focused on their debuffing and utility rather than straight damage.  Sonic Attack and Radiation Blast are in a similar boat, although Sonic Attack didn't need any proliferation.  Meanwhile, although Defenders get it, Fire Blast is in the opposite boat in that it's mostly damage and almost no utility, making it not so good on a number Defender primaries, like Empathy or Forcefields.

 

Also, looking at the Dark Blast powers on the wiki, it looks like they did add a good bit of damage to Blaster Dark Blast, between Aim, Umbral Torrent, Abyssal Gaze, and a stronger Life Drain.  Unlike Defender Fire Blast, which got no added utility.  :(

[Solarverse]

Abrasive or not, Pixie is a bit correct.  Dark Blast is originally intended as a Defender blast set,  If you look at the powers, they're more focused on their debuffing and utility rather than straight damage.  Sonic Attack and Radiation Blast are in a similar boat, although Sonic Attack didn't need any proliferation.  Meanwhile, although Defenders get it, Fire Blast is in the opposite boat in that it's mostly damage and almost no utility, making it not so good on a number Defender primaries, like Empathy or Forcefields.

 

Also, looking at the Dark Blast powers on the wiki, it looks like they did add a good bit of damage to Blaster Dark Blast, between Aim, Umbral Torrent, Abyssal Gaze, and a stronger Life Drain.  Unlike Defender Fire Blast, which got no added utility.  :(

 

I'm all about what is fair. Making changes to power sets to fit the class should have been do e from the start, across the board on all classes. Now, we have abilities that dont go there, when other abilities that already exist, should have been used in their place. Sadly, players get used to things the way they are, and if anyone threatens any type of proposal for change, they fight till the death to keep things the way they are, even when the way things are makes no logical sense to the class itself.

 

People dont like change. I get it. Many changes happened in this game that I didn't like either, due to players crying about this, or crying about that, next thi g you know, something you loved about your favorite class, suddenly changed and now you hate the class because of that change. I have been there. So I get it.

 

This is why I never put up much of a fight to change things in this game. I understand where that uncalled for rudeness comes from...I have honestly been there. Been around since issue 1...so trust me, I know.

 

Like I said before, these are things that SHOULD have been done. Not things that I am pushing to make happen. I'm not in any big hurry to throw myself to the sharks, lol.

 

I did find a work around for at least one power, but I will need to switch to the villain side to pick it up. Once I get to that point, at least half of my issue with the class will be over. Still wished I had that PBAoE though...but I'll live.

 

Anyway, things are well...the class wont be changing due to anything I have said, I simply wanted to Express what I felt should have been done to make the primary an actual Blaster set, not a slight damage buffed Defender set. 

 

Cheers!  :)

[Rumors]

I'm not sure what they'd change about Dark Blast without making it into a generic blast set though.  I'm not against it, but I'd like for it to keep its different flavor since having red-headed step children definitely does add some variety and unique build angles.  But I mean... hmm, lemme bullet point this for simplicity.

 

Bear with me, I can't look up the in-game detailed info right now to compare numbers.

 

 

-Replacing Umbral Torrent with Night Fall:  From a pure numbers standpoint, this seems like a nerf as Umbral Torrent looks like it's already Nightfall (moderate cone) and Torrent (low damage knockback cone) combined.  For those who hate knock back it would certainly be a buff though.

 

-Replacing Tenebreous with Engulfing Darkness:  From a pure damage standpoint this would be an upgrade, since a PBAoE would need more damage than a cone since it's more dangerous to use.  But it feels like it takes a bit of flavor from the set.  Letting it keep the immobilize would keep the flavor, but I seem some possible issues in trying to combined it with the cone from Umbral Torrent.  I think such a power would be more at home in Darkness Manipulation, since PBAoEs usually tend to live in Blaster secondaries (T9 nukes and Electric Short Circuit being the only exceptions).

 

-IMO, what I think Dark Blast might lack is a TAoE attack, like Fireball.  I'm not 100% sure where you would put it though.  I could maybe see replacing Umbral Torrent with it and changing it from knock back to (chance for) knock down to prevent scatter.  It'd probably do less damage per use, but it'd be a lot easier to use and it'd play well with-

 

Actually, hold that thought.  Maybe a damage patch skill like Rain of Fire and Whirlpool?  You could set it up with Tenebreous and Abyssal Gaze to ensure targets can't escape it and ensure it does more damage.  I don't think such an attack pre-exists to just put in the spot, however.  But a damage patch with -tohit that synergizes with Tenebreous to keep them in the area could be pretty cool.

[Mr. Vee]

Would be nice if we all agreed, but something tells me, in good ol' City of Heroes tradition, we won't.  :D

 

Awww come on, we can agree to disagree! XD

 

 

But back on topic; as mentioned above if you slot the KB-->KD Io into Torrent it becomes a very nifty soft control power!

 

 

Dark Blast also has the ability to stack a decent amount of to-hit debuffs on your foe, comes with a heal and a hold. It's always been more of a slowish DPS that relied on all its support and soft control abilities to make it useful. Probably why it took ages for the Devs to bring it to Blasters. As it's design runs pretty counter to the "in your face, everything must die now" playstyle of the Blaster.

 

I would love to do that if not for one thing; I am not a big fan of the stat bonuses that come with it. I would rather have a toggle that turns KB in to KD, if possible. But yes, there is that option if I get desperate enough...and I'm getting close, lol.

 

So don't slot the set. Put the KB to kd io with a 5 piece Ragnarok or posi and bob's your uncle.

[Jaguaratron]

Nothing hurts it, its a solid set with a damage type that isnt typically resisted

 

Torrent can become a KD with a KB to KD IO and it does almost the same damage as the t1 attack, in a cone on 100% KD, thats crazy good.

 

Tentacles Im not a fan off but with recent changes of KD working on rooted NPCs it could have some more value now in conjunction with torrent.

 

Abyssal gaze is kind of weird as you would see it as a hold first but does solid damage (70% of moonbeam) 20s recharge blows though.

 

Life drain......... a ranged, high damage (84% of moonbeam) attack which debuffs the enemies tohit on a 8 second cooldown AND heals you? Insanely good.

 

You can fix torrent yourself and the rest is just flavour, theres nothing the set "needs" its a high performer, just not formulaic like some other sets.

[Solarverse]

I'm not sure what they'd change about Dark Blast without making it into a generic blast set though.  I'm not against it, but I'd like for it to keep its different flavor since having red-headed step children definitely does add some variety and unique build angles.  But I mean... hmm, lemme bullet point this for simplicity.

 

Bear with me, I can't look up the in-game detailed info right now to compare numbers.

 

 

-Replacing Umbral Torrent with Night Fall:  From a pure numbers standpoint, this seems like a nerf as Umbral Torrent looks like it's already Nightfall (moderate cone) and Torrent (low damage knockback cone) combined.  For those who hate knock back it would certainly be a buff though.

 

-Replacing Tenebreous with Engulfing Darkness:  From a pure damage standpoint this would be an upgrade, since a PBAoE would need more damage than a cone since it's more dangerous to use.  But it feels like it takes a bit of flavor from the set.  Letting it keep the immobilize would keep the flavor, but I seem some possible issues in trying to combined it with the cone from Umbral Torrent.  I think such a power would be more at home in Darkness Manipulation, since PBAoEs usually tend to live in Blaster secondaries (T9 nukes and Electric Short Circuit being the only exceptions).

 

-IMO, what I think Dark Blast might lack is a TAoE attack, like Fireball.  I'm not 100% sure where you would put it though.  I could maybe see replacing Umbral Torrent with it and changing it from knock back to (chance for) knock down to prevent scatter.  It'd probably do less damage per use, but it'd be a lot easier to use and it'd play well with-

 

Actually, hold that thought.  Maybe a damage patch skill like Rain of Fire and Whirlpool?  You could set it up with Tenebreous and Abyssal Gaze to ensure targets can't escape it and ensure it does more damage.  I don't think such an attack pre-exists to just put in the spot, however.  But a damage patch with -tohit that synergizes with Tenebreous to keep them in the area could be pretty cool.

 

You mean like Tar Patch with added damage? Hmmmmm...I think that could grow on me, and like you said, would synergize well with TT.

[Solarverse]

I'm not sure what they'd change about Dark Blast without making it into a generic blast set though.  I'm not against it, but I'd like for it to keep its different flavor since having red-headed step children definitely does add some variety and unique build angles.  But I mean... hmm, lemme bullet point this for simplicity.

 

Bear with me, I can't look up the in-game detailed info right now to compare numbers.

 

 

-Replacing Umbral Torrent with Night Fall:  From a pure numbers standpoint, this seems like a nerf as Umbral Torrent looks like it's already Nightfall (moderate cone) and Torrent (low damage knockback cone) combined.  For those who hate knock back it would certainly be a buff though.

 

-Replacing Tenebreous with Engulfing Darkness:  From a pure damage standpoint this would be an upgrade, since a PBAoE would need more damage than a cone since it's more dangerous to use.  But it feels like it takes a bit of flavor from the set.  Letting it keep the immobilize would keep the flavor, but I seem some possible issues in trying to combined it with the cone from Umbral Torrent.  I think such a power would be more at home in Darkness Manipulation, since PBAoEs usually tend to live in Blaster secondaries (T9 nukes and Electric Short Circuit being the only exceptions).

 

-IMO, what I think Dark Blast might lack is a TAoE attack, like Fireball.  I'm not 100% sure where you would put it though.  I could maybe see replacing Umbral Torrent with it and changing it from knock back to (chance for) knock down to prevent scatter.  It'd probably do less damage per use, but it'd be a lot easier to use and it'd play well with-

 

Actually, hold that thought.  Maybe a damage patch skill like Rain of Fire and Whirlpool?  You could set it up with Tenebreous and Abyssal Gaze to ensure targets can't escape it and ensure it does more damage.  I don't think such an attack pre-exists to just put in the spot, however.  But a damage patch with -tohit that synergizes with Tenebreous to keep them in the area could be pretty cool.

 

You mean like Tar Patch with added damage? Hmmmmm...I think that could grow on me, and like you said, would synergize well with TT.

 

I admittedly would probably like Torrent more if it shared the cast ani.ation with Energy Torrent, rather than the push animation it currently has.

[Nic Mercy]

Tenebrous Tentacles does comparable damage to Umbral Torrent and cone attacks in other Blaster primaries (see Energy Torrent, Buck Shot, Fistful of Arrows, etc). The fact that it does the same damage as other cones but also roots foes in place is a plus in my book.

 

And while I understand this isn't going to be readily apparent to newbies, Umbral Torrent can be slotted with a KB to KD IO to eliminate the knockback for those who dislike it.

 

Taking the above into account, and also considering Blaster's Dark Blast has a single target, high damage, mag3 hold (abyssal gaze) and a single target, high damage, attack/self heal (life drain), I think Dark Blast for Blasters is pretty darn good!

[Solarverse]

Tenebrous Tentacles does comparable damage to Umbral Torrent and cone attacks in other Blaster primaries (see Energy Torrent, Buck Shot, Fistful of Arrows, etc). The fact that it does the same damage as other cones but also roots foes in place is a plus in my book.

 

And while I understand this isn't going to be readily apparent to newbies, Umbral Torrent can be slotted with a KB to KD IO to eliminate the knockback for those who dislike it.

 

Taking the above into account, and also considering Blaster's Dark Blast has a single target, high damage, mag3 hold (abyssal gaze) and a single target, high damage, attack/self heal (life drain), I think Dark Blast for Blasters is pretty darn good!

 

Let me touch base on a couple of things here. Most of us are Vets of this game and our knowledge of the game is quite extensive. As a player who has been here since I1 myself, I can assure you that you are speaking to a 43 year old man, who is also a veteran of this game. In fact, in most situations, I am the go to guy for information about this game and its mechanics. I thi k the days of calling people in this game newbies should be long dead by now.

 

Having said that, I am well aware of the IOs that prevent knock back. In fact, we have two types. It's not just one. I am also well aware that if one does choose to use those sets, chances are he/she will be dissatisfied with the other set bonuses that come with those. So it's a catch 22. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

So yes, it is an option...however, that option should have came free in form of a toggle power that turns on and off knock back to knock down, not in the form of an IO.

 

So in this case, I both agree with you, but also disagree.

[Without_Pause]

Let me touch base on a couple of things here. Most of us are Vets of this game and our knowledge of the game is quite extensive. As a player who has been here since I1 myself, I can assure you that you are speaking to a 43 year old man, who is also a veteran of this game. In fact, in most situations, I am the go to guy for information about this game and its mechanics. I thi k the days of calling people in this game newbies should be long dead by now.

 

Ah, playing the elitist card. FYI, there are people who are actually new to this game and don't spill out the vast knowledge you seem to claim in having.

[Pixie_Knight]

Not to mention the claim that TT does 'crap' damage is directly counter to the fact that the damage is on par with all other cone attacks a blaster might have. Also, those 'explody' aoe do worse damage then you claim, they just do it to a larger number of enemies thus do more damage overall. Same with cone attacks. Thus a Dark Blast/* blaster isn't sacrificing damage to get a cone immobilize, they are getting the same damage they would have that is also a cone immobilize.

[Solarverse]

Let me touch base on a couple of things here. Most of us are Vets of this game and our knowledge of the game is quite extensive. As a player who has been here since I1 myself, I can assure you that you are speaking to a 43 year old man, who is also a veteran of this game. In fact, in most situations, I am the go to guy for information about this game and its mechanics. I thi k the days of calling people in this game newbies should be long dead by now.

 

Ah, playing the elitist card. FYI, there are people who are actually new to this game and don't spill out the vast knowledge you seem to claim in having.

 

Please stop. Now you are just trying to pick a fight. I'm not the one going around calling people newbies. You did that. I simply brought things in perspective, by stating a fact that MOST players here are veterans of this game...and the days of calling people newbies should end. Also, I said most of us has extensive knowledge of this game...not just me. And I am right, most of us do. We learn from each other of the things we don't know to help each other become more knowledgeable. Don't go labeling me with tags without sufficient evidence to back them up. It makes us both look foolish...and honestly, I would rather keep this friendly.

[AkuTenshiiZero]

Can we maybe stop with the uncontrolled Blaster buffing?

[Solarverse]

Not to mention the claim that TT does 'crap' damage is directly counter to the fact that the damage is on par with all other cone attacks a blaster might have. Also, those 'explody' aoe do worse damage then you claim, they just do it to a larger number of enemies thus do more damage overall. Same with cone attacks. Thus a Dark Blast/* blaster isn't sacrificing damage to get a cone immobilize, they are getting the same damage they would have that is also a cone immobilize.

 

Hmmm, I will take a look at that when I get off from work. If this is correct, then I appreciate the info.

[Mr. Vee]

Still don't get why you think you have to slot the entire set to use a kb to kd.

[Solarverse]

Still don't get why you think you have to slot the entire set to use a kb to kd.

 

You wouldn't consider it a waste if you didnt finish out the set? If it was a plus regen or plus defense or something like that, I could see your point, but this is a kb to kd io.

 

Just the way I see it is all.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

LOL many players ? No man just you, since the release of Dark Blast it has been the king of primary for blasters that dont want to spend time eating dirt more then fighting mobs, and do not want to be dependant on tanking and spanking IE the wowtard way to play.

 

While I favor Psi/Ment for flavor reasons I can assure you a Dark/Ment blaster is nearly game breakingly OP. Well built and well played they can solo content that will wipe out the typical tank and spank team that has a fireX3 blaster who will unless having one of the very few great tanker players protecting them, spend way too much time fave planting. And be a horrible head ache for the support builds.

 

I get it you think a blaster should only be about DPS, You want them stuck in that box with no tools for the more creative builders to push beyond what you see as boundaries that must be made into walls and tear down any ladders people build to climb over them.

 

Im not going to pretend everyone on Virtue knew the name of Bentley Berkeley aka bloody berk, Bentley the Beast, and a few other nick names I garnered over the years of specializing in blasters.

 

Understand I have played every possible blaster power combo to cap over the years. And then deleted the vast majority of them after pushing their builds to their limits.

 

Blast sets that include soft control in greater abundance are hands down better sets. As you point out in even hard end game content most mobs die pretty fast, So fast that over kill blasters are far more a liability due to their tendency to over aggro and eat dirt alot more often then those blasters who are from wider MMO backgrounds and understand what managing your personal DPS and aggro draw means.

 

A blaster doing as much dmg as they can sounds great in theory, in practice its always the wrong move, just like those who make tanks focus too much on survival over doing decent DPS and being unable to actually keep aggro off of max DPS builds.

 

If you want to play a hardier blaster make a sentinal. If you want to do a pure DPS build be a fireX3. Because seriously people like you if you get your way will end up driving away alot more players to private servers then anything else.