Scrapper AoE comparison sheet

[aethereal]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WMSg3mw5r6Y0R1lD5c0fGnfaLnsQcU5r2zIm7rb0YdM/edit?usp=sharing

 

This is a google sheet I created that includes every AoE power in a scrapper primary, and compares their damage and other attributes.

 

All DoTs are summed up and presented as a lump sum.

 

I got this data by looking a CoD and, in many cases, handle-copying and adding up things, so there are several different ways it could be wrong.  CoD could be wrong.  I could be misinterpreting CoD's somewhat cryptic power effects (especially for non-standard things).  Or I could simply have made mistakes/typoes/whatever in actually entering the data into the sheet.  If something seems wrong, double-check it.  Corrections gratefully accepted.

 

I don't have info about non-damage secondary effects here.  I do try to note in the notes when there's something strange going on.

 

Some things that might be interesting to do:

Sort by DPA.

Filter out some of the powers by arc rating, if you're only interested in AoEs that are relatively easy to use (you can drop out the very narrow cones pretty eassily)

Make your own copy and screw around to your heart's content

 

Some things that were surprising to me:

 

The number of powers that have crit irregularities, some of them not mentioned in the power description

How non-standardized arc sizes were

[aethereal]

(Oh, why I did this, when the info is available in CoD and in-game pretty easily:

 

The advantage of this spreadsheet is that you can more easily compare several or lots of powers together.  CoD has better data, but you're only looking at one power per page, it doesn't show you DPA, and it doesn't sum up damage across various effects or DoTs.  So it's hard to get a holistic sense of several powers by looking at it.)

[arcane]

I hate to do this because it looks like a lot of work but tbh this is super helpful and would be cool to have in single target ❤️

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

I hate to do this because it looks like a lot of work but tbh this is super helpful and would be cool to have in single target ❤️

Hah, it was a lot of work and I'm not sure I'm up to doing the much larger number of ST powers, but I'll consider it for some other lazy weekend.

 

So this is just bothering me now, and I'm wondering:

 

Frost, Repulsing Torrent, and One Thousand Cuts all have irregular crits for...  reasons that are unclear to me.  Like, they don't seem to have any terribly coherent reason why they shouldn't have normal crits.

 

Frost and Repulsing Torrent are both "ranged cones" (that is, cones with unusually long ranges and those ranges are enhanceable), but Shockwave in Claws and Throw Spines in Spines, also "ranged cones," have regular crits.  Frost is a pretty good power all told, so maybe it doesn't mind having a slightly low crit, but it's not amazing or anything.  Repulsing Torrent is pretty bad and could use all the help it could get.

 

One Thousand Cuts has a pretty complex damage (a bunch of DoT and then a lump-sum power at the end), so maybe either I just screwed up the regular damage calc or maybe the designers did, but given the low difference between its actual crit and what it "ought" to be, this just seems like an oversight?

 

Anyone know anything about this, and why it is the way it is?

Edited October 10, 2021 by aethereal
Originally had Golden Dragonfly where I meant 1000 cuts

[aethereal]

To @arcane's request, I added a second sheet to the spreadsheet that tries to address procability of the powers in some way.  Basically, I put in the proc chance for a standard damage proc (ie, a 3.5 PPM, 71.75 damage proc), and then put in how much of a damage enhancement that constitutes to the power in crit and non-crit situations.

 

I'd appreciate some eyes on the (complicated) formula to determine proc chance.  I've triple-checked it, but the calculated proc chances seem kinda high to me.

[arcane]

I checked a couple of your values, and it looks like your proc chances are about 15-20% higher than what I calculate with the PPM formulas. It looks higher at a glance in general too. Checked on Whirling Axe and Frozen Aura. I'm struggling to understand your formulas right at the moment, but I am just calculating those two with the basics:

 

 

For instance,

 

Whirling Axe:

=3.5 *  (14 + 2.67) / (60 * (1 + 0.15 * 8))

=3.5 * (16.67) / (132)

=44.2%

 

Frozen Aura:

=3.5 *  (20 + 2.1) / (60 * (1 + 0.15 * 10))

=3.5 * (22.1) / (150)

=51.6%

 

Thank you for your hard work though. 🙂 

 

EDIT: I see an StJ stalker spreadsheet in my current files, looks like I'm off from you on Sweeping Cross (44.9%) and Spinning Strike (54.7%) too.

 

EDIT 2: Well I can't decipher what your Area Factor formula is but that is definitely the difference in our numbers.

 

EDIT 3: BUT just looking at the numbers relative to one another, it sure does look like Savage Leap is a proc nuke 😉

Edited October 11, 2021 by arcane

[aethereal]

Let me re-derive Bopper's "combined formula," I was blindly following it, but I agree that everything seems too high.

 

EDIT:  @arcane, it looks to me like you're using the "undampened" area factor.  Per @Bopper's guide 

 

The simple sphere formula of AF = 1 + 0.15 * Radius, for example, which it seems like you're using above, is the undampened value, and the actual area modifier is 0.25 + 0.75 * AF.

Edited October 12, 2021 by aethereal

[aethereal]

I added a separate column for Area Factor and used a hopefully easier-to-follow formula for the proc chance.  No change in overall numbers.  Assuming that the formulae in Bopper's linked thread are correct, I think these are correct values.

 

EDIT to explain my calculations a little further:

 

1.  I'm using the "combined" formula for AF, of 

AF = 1 + Radius x (11 * Arc + 540) / 30,000 

(This formula basically just lets you treat spherical powers as cones that have arc = 360)

 

2.  I'm using IF statements in two ways: first, to substitute in 360 for any arc value that's left blank (since I thought it was ugly to fill in the value 360 for all spherical powers), and second, to substitute in the value of 10 for the activation + modifiied recharge time for a power that's a toggle or pseudopet.

 

3.  Finally, I'm using MIN and MAX functions to coerce the value into the range of 90% (max), and 5% + 1.5% * 3.5 (PPM) (min).

Edited October 12, 2021 by aethereal

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

I'm using the "combined" formula for AF, of 

AF = 1 + Radius x (11 * Arc + 540) / 30,000 

(This formula basically just lets you treat spherical powers as cones that have arc = 360)

Are you using that formula for procs or for calculating AF in general? Dividing by 30,000 is correct if you just want the Area Factor. Divide by 40,000 if you want to calculate the dampened Area Factor used by PPM calculations.

[aethereal]

24 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Are you using that formula for procs or for calculating AF in general? Dividing by 30,000 is correct if you just want the Area Factor. Divide by 40,000 if you want to calculate the dampened Area Factor used by PPM calculations.

I calculated the area factor (undampened) in one column, then dampen it when used in another column to calculate proc chance.

[arcane]

14 hours ago, aethereal said:

Let me re-derive Bopper's "combined formula," I was blindly following it, but I agree that everything seems too high.

 

EDIT:  @arcane, it looks to me like you're using the "undampened" area factor.  Per @Bopper's guide 

 

The simple sphere formula of AF = 1 + 0.15 * Radius, for example, which it seems like you're using above, is the undampened value, and the actual area modifier is 0.25 + 0.75 * AF.

All my toons are a lie 😳. Why would hcwiki do this to me? 💔

 

For real this info is a lot to handle 😞

 

Any comment on just how bad my error is? I’m nearing 100 level 50’s and have used this formula everywhere... There was never any indication wiki was wrong.

 

EDIT: reading Bopper’s thread more, it appears this error works in my favor? As in, I was underestimating AoE proc rates.

Edited October 12, 2021 by arcane

[Uun]

Touch of Fear is funky. The fear and -tohit are single target and the damage is AoE. Not sure if it's working as intended, but it seems like the proc chance for the AoE is calculated as if it were a single target attack. On my tank it goes off way more often than the 34.7% indicated in the table.

[arcane]

16 minutes ago, Uun said:

Touch of Fear is funky. The fear and -tohit are single target and the damage is AoE. Not sure if it's working as intended, but it seems like the proc chance for the AoE is calculated as if it were a single target attack. On my tank it goes off way more often than the 34.7% indicated in the table.

I’ve always wondered how multi-component powers proc. Which rate they choose, etc.

 

Other examples I don’t understand are Thunderstrike (S/T + AoE) and Acid Arrow (Two AoE effects, two different radius values).

[ZemX]

ToF "executes" two powers: One for ST and one for AoE.  I would assume each of those executions is passed the proc and has their own chances to proc on each target hit by them.  So the ST power should use ST formula and the AoE power should use AoE formula.  I think you'd have to run a fair number of trials to determine if the proc rate you were seeing was 34.7% or something like 60% for the ST portion.   It's complicated probably by not being able to tell the difference between the ST and AoE procs in the combat log.  It's just going to say "procname hits for x dmg" or something like that, I think.  So the ST portion WOULD cause the combined proc rate to appear slightly higher than if it just used AoE formula for everything.

 

Thunderstrike is a single power execution with multiple effects.  It's just some effects only occur on targets within the inner radius.  I wouldn't think that would be any different for procs than any other power that has multiple effects.  You only get one proc chance per target hit, no matter how many separate effects are applied or not applied.

[Uun]

17 minutes ago, ZemX said:

ToF "executes" two powers: One for ST and one for AoE.  I would assume each of those executions is passed the proc and has their own chances to proc on each target hit by them.  So the ST power should use ST formula and the AoE power should use AoE formula.  I think you'd have to run a fair number of trials to determine if the proc rate you were seeing was 34.7% or something like 60% for the ST portion.   It's complicated probably by not being able to tell the difference between the ST and AoE procs in the combat log.  It's just going to say "procname hits for x dmg" or something like that, I think.  So the ST portion WOULD cause the combined proc rate to appear slightly higher than if it just used AoE formula for everything.

I admit that I haven't done any controlled testing, just observation from playing. I have the power slotted with the procs from Eradication, Obliteration, Scirocco's Dervish and Perfect Zinger, all of which are AoE. (I intentionally didn't slot any fear or -tohit procs as they would only hit one target.) I feel like every time I use the power, I'm seeing 2-3 of the 4 procs go off.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

EDIT: reading Bopper’s thread more, it appears this error works in my favor? As in, I was underestimating AoE proc rates.

Correct, the "dampened" area factor means that you take less of a penalty to proc rates due to AoE than you would otherwise.  That is, the proc rate is higher for AoE power than you had been calculating (that's why you saw my numbers as 15-20% higher than yours for the spreadsheet).

 

I added a note to Touch of Fear that it may be incorrect data.

[ZemX]

20 minutes ago, Uun said:

I admit that I haven't done any controlled testing, just observation from playing. I have the power slotted with the procs from Eradication, Obliteration, Scirocco's Dervish and Perfect Zinger, all of which are AoE. (I intentionally didn't slot any fear or -tohit procs as they would only hit one target.) I feel like every time I use the power, I'm seeing 2-3 of the 4 procs go off.

 

The tanker version is an interesting case since both the ST and AoE child powers accept Taunt enhancement.  I wonder if Perfect Zinger has a chance to hit the main target twice!

 

In any case, you'd have to test this, ideally, with a spawn of 10 enemies packed up nice and tight in front of you with the main target in the center and preferrably a unique name, like being the only boss or LT in the group so you can see in the combat log when the proc is hitting it vs. the others maybe.  An then you'd have to do that a number of times to differentiate proc rates since it's only the difference of 34.7% vs. about 58% I think, assuming no local recharge in the power.

 

I have a Shield/DM tanker so it might be a fun experiment... for science! 🤪