Equivalent Powers, for more options and flexibility in sets

[Vanden]

This is an idea I've had for a while: Equivalent Powers are additional powers in a set or pool that unlock at the same level as other powers, but are mutually exclusive with them. If you take one, you can't take the other. These powers would be roughly equal in utility, and would give players a thematic or role-based choice at those levels, letting them build their character closer to the idea they have for them. Here's some examples of ideas I had for Equivalent Powers:

 

Assault Rifle: Burst, Slug, Sniper Rifle, and Full Auto would gain Hollow Point versions of themselves as Equivalent Powers. These powers are statistically identical in damage scale, end cost, and recharge, however the damage is a 50/50 split of Smashing and Lethal, rather than entirely Lethal.

 

Pyre/Blaze Mastery: Melt Armor is available in this APP for melee archetypes. It's pretty much the exact same power as from Thermal Radiation, but it's had the usual APP reduction in effectiveness, and it's on ATs with weaker debuff scales. This double-whammy makes it a fairly weak choice; a mere 7% defense debuff and 9.75% resistance debuff. It would have an Equivalent Power that is single target, with higher numbers in exchange: 14% defense debuff, and 16.25% resistance debuff (numbers stolen from Poisonous Ray in Mace Mastery, another single-target debuff in an APP).

 

Body/Energy Mastery: These pools for melee archetypes offer Laser Beam Eyes and Energy Torrent for attacks. However, they don't fit a lot of character concepts. Thus, the pool would gain Power Blast as an Equivalent Power for Laser Beam Eyes, and Explosive Blast as an Equivalent Power for Energy Torrent. In addition, the Brute version of Energy Mastery and Stalker version of Body Mastery get Superior Conditioning instead of Conserve Power; this is because Conserve Power/Energy was already available to those ATs from Energy Aura and Electric Armor. However, those armor sets have since had Conserve Power/Energy replaced with Energize. So there's really no reason Conserve Power couldn't become an Equivalent Power for Superior Conditioning for Brutes and Stalkers, and vice versa for Tankers and Scrappers.

 

Presence: In i24 Challenge was replaced by Pacify. I know it's an overall buff to the pool, but this still didn't entirely sit well with me, because I found a lot of value in Challenging bosses and EBs on Masterminds while in Bodyguard mode. Challenge could come back as an Equivalent Power for Provoke or Pacify.

 

I think this idea would add a lot of flexibility to the various power pools in the game. Let me know what you think.

[Galaxy Brain]

This would be awesome. Doesn't /Sr on sentinels have something like this too?

[Vanden]

So they do! Super Reflexes Sentinels can take either Master Brawler or Practiced Brawler starting at 10, but never both. I was pretty sure this idea was mechanically possible already, but that confirms it.

[Primantis]

It's also seen in SoA

 

You can take the basic Venom Grenade, or the Crab Spider Venom grenade. But not both.

 

Granted it is an Epic AT so it might be coded differently, I dunno.

 

 

- I do like this idea! It could be used in all sorts of ways too. Maybe give different versions of BUs (Vanilla and one that lasts longer but gives a smaller buff?) or different damage types to sets etc. "Do you want your Cosmic Burst to do Fire damage? Then get Cosmic Scorch!"

[Vanden]

It's also seen in SoA

 

You can take the basic Venom Grenade, or the Crab Spider Venom grenade. But not both.

 

Granted it is an Epic AT so it might be coded differently, I dunno.

Yes, that’s the thing that made me think this was already possible.

[justicebeliever]

I like it - more choices = more fun.

[Galaxy Brain]

(Knockback sets into knockdown sets)

[Rylas]

Assault Rifle: Burst, Slug, Sniper Rifle, and Full Auto would gain Hollow Point versions of themselves as Equivalent Powers. These powers are statistically identical in damage scale, end cost, and recharge, however the damage is a 50/50 split of Smashing and Lethal, rather than entirely Lethal.

 

So in this example, if you chose the Burst Alternative would you then be locked into taking the other Alternatives for Slug and Sniper, etc? Or would you be able to take from one side here, another side there? For example, Burst Alternative, Slug Original, Sniper Alternative.

[Vanden]

Assault Rifle: Burst, Slug, Sniper Rifle, and Full Auto would gain Hollow Point versions of themselves as Equivalent Powers. These powers are statistically identical in damage scale, end cost, and recharge, however the damage is a 50/50 split of Smashing and Lethal, rather than entirely Lethal.

 

So in this example, if you chose the Burst Alternative would you then be locked into taking the other Alternatives for Slug and Sniper, etc? Or would you be able to take from one side here, another side there? For example, Burst Alternative, Slug Original, Sniper Alternative.

 

I don’t see any reason you wouldn’t be allowed to mix and match.

[Super Homer]

This would be a nice way to buff some sets without breaking cottage rules. Pick: Assault Rifle Bean Bag or Aim.

 

Click stacking and crashing rage, or toggle non-stacking crash-free Rage.

[Vanden]

This would be a nice way to buff some sets without breaking cottage rules. Pick: Assault Rifle Bean Bag or Aim.

 

Click stacking and crashing rage, or toggle non-stacking crash-free Rage.

I think if this idea is to be used, it should be applied to primary and secondary sets with a light touch. They exist in a much more delicate balance than APPs do, and doing something big like letting players trade a single-target stun power for Aim is much more likely to throw off the balance of the set. Plus, the power choices are supposed to be Equivalent, and I don't think Aim and Bean Bag are equal powers.

[Primantis]

For Bean Bag you could have a Stunning version and a version that applies a hold instead.

 

Heck I wouldn't be against giving all KB powers a KD alternative either. Same exact power, just lower mag KB so its all KD.

 

Makes those IO's a bit redundant though xD

[Super Homer]

I think if this idea is to be used, it should be applied to primary and secondary sets with a light touch. They exist in a much more delicate balance than APPs do, and doing something big like letting players trade a single-target stun power for Aim is much more likely to throw off the balance of the set. Plus, the power choices are supposed to be Equivalent, and I don't think Aim and Bean Bag are equal powers.

 

If you just aim at "equivalents" sure, but if you aim to fix sets that underperform, then you could "get rid" of bean bag without removing it from those players that like it. Sentinels got rid of it in exchange of Aim, and they are better for it. Also: bean bag happens to be exactly at the spot where you would have Aim.

[Vanden]

I think if this idea is to be used, it should be applied to primary and secondary sets with a light touch. They exist in a much more delicate balance than APPs do, and doing something big like letting players trade a single-target stun power for Aim is much more likely to throw off the balance of the set. Plus, the power choices are supposed to be Equivalent, and I don't think Aim and Bean Bag are equal powers.

 

If you just aim at "equivalents" sure, but if you aim to fix sets that underperform, then you could "get rid" of bean bag without removing it from those players that like it. Sentinels got rid of it in exchange of Aim, and they are better for it. Also: bean bag happens to be exactly at the spot where you would have Aim.

Aiming for equivalent is exactly the point of the suggestion. It’s to add flavor and player choice, not buff underperforming primaries and secondaries; that’s outside the scope of the suggestion.

[MalphiteMeIRL]

That would certainly breathe new life into all the powersets, I like it!

 

My only concern is I feel it would be difficult to keep everything purely as a sidegrade. Not impossible though.

[OEM61]

For Bean Bag you could have a Stunning version and a version that applies a hold instead.

 

Heck I wouldn't be against giving all KB powers a KD alternative either. Same exact power, just lower mag KB so its all KD.

 

Makes those IO's a bit redundant though xD

 

Isn't knockdown generally better?

Not saying that there aren't times/conditions where knockback isn't a good thing, goodness knows that energy thrust has saved my energy/energy blaster on occasion, but I think that knockdown would be the preferred choice by far.

 

It would certainly be more welcome in teams or in connection with close combat heroes that would rather not have to chase enemies down after hitting them.

 

So yeah, this would have to be handled extremely carefully.

[justicebeliever]

For Bean Bag you could have a Stunning version and a version that applies a hold instead.

 

Heck I wouldn't be against giving all KB powers a KD alternative either. Same exact power, just lower mag KB so its all KD.

 

Makes those IO's a bit redundant though xD

 

Isn't knockdown generally better?

Not saying that there aren't times/conditions where knockback isn't a good thing, goodness knows that energy thrust has saved my energy/energy blaster on occasion, but I think that knockdown would be the preferred choice by far.

 

It would certainly be more welcome in teams or in connection with close combat heroes that would rather not have to chase enemies down after hitting them.

 

So yeah, this would have to be handled extremely carefully.

 

I truly understand the pathos that people have with Knockback..."Hey, we just worked really hard to get these guys in the same place so we can tank or use AoE attacks/holds/debuffs and now you are scattering them, and we have to run around and chase them, and oh damn...my toggles just dropped...sigh"

 

However, as someone who solos/duos a bit - Knockback is a life saver...They are both out of commission for a few seconds AND out of range when they get back up.  Definitely been the difference between life and...hospital on a few occasions

[Vanden]

Another idea I had for an Equivalent Power, for Electricity Manipulation: Fire and Ice Manipulation's i24 Sustain powers are their aura abilities, changing them from expensive toggles to run to free debuff/damage auras that give nice buffs to yourself as well. Electricity has a damage aura as well, in Lightning Field, but it was Lightning Clap that became the Sustain ability instead. I think the reason for this is that Lightning Field drains endurance, and putting a +Recovery on it would let you slot for both at once with end mod enhancements, which could potentially be too good. They couldn't remove the end drain, because players that used Lightning Field for that would cry foul. This is a perfect place to put an Equivalent Power: Overcharged. It's a damage aura like Lightning Field, same damage, but no end drain. Instead, it increases Recovery and Regeneration. Lightning Clap comes back as an Equivalent Power for Force of Thunder.  This set of powers would be a little different, in that taking one would lock out two other powers instead of just one. You can have Force of Thunder and Lightning Field, or Overcharged and Lightning Clap; you can't combine Force of Thunder and Overcharged or Lightning Field and Lightning Clap.