Prove me wrong

[Guest JackRooks]

Scrappers and Brutes are grossly overpowered and trivialize all content.

 

Protip: You can't

[jack_nomind]

Wouldn't dream of it.  I'd easily put Scrappers and Brutes in the top 13 of ATs for trivializing content.

[LorannaPyrel]

Scrappers and Brutes are grossly overpowered and trivialize all content.

 

Protip: You can't

 

Tanker: Hold my insp tray *knucklecrack emote*

 

- Loranna

[Without_Pause]

Since Incarnates can happen, I think it is simply more than just those two ATs. Certainly controllers can be made to be rather strong, see Ill/rad.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Scrappers and Brutes are great. Right up until you start stacking Defenders, Corruptors and Controllers and realize that those melee ATs were just holding you back from true greatness.

[marcussmythe]

Melee ATs in general look really good on paper, and solo, they can be super impressive.

 

Their overall impact is probalby less than that of anything with a buff/debuff set, and a well designed weilder of a buff/debuff set, with a cunning plan, and IOs/Incarnates, can do anything solo any melee AT could.  Often this is done by leveraging recharge to 'perma' powers that were never meant to be (I'm looking at -you- powerbuildup perma foresight).

 

Ultimately, pretty much anything in CoH can invalidate content, the buff/debuff sets just do it harder and easier, at the end of the day.

[MunkiLord]

Being a Scrapper is a mindset, and in that regard, I agree we are way OP'd.

[Murcielago]

Play content without IOs and come back and say the same thing but you can't. It takes a lot of INF, IOs, and time to make any AT trivialize content. A brute or scrapper cannot solo +4 x8 without IOs, they would absolutely get demolished.

[Hopeling]

Everything in this game is grossly overpowered. That's why we love it.

[marcussmythe]

Play content without IOs and come back and say the same thing but you can't. It takes a lot of INF, IOs, and time to make any AT trivialize content. A brute or scrapper cannot solo +4 x8 without IOs, they would absolutely get demolished.

 

As much as I love the madness unleashed by IOs and Incarnates, I may start doing a series of ‘no sets, no incarnates’ characters.  -Maybe- SOs only, though lvl 50 IOs and HammiOs do open up possibilities.

 

Not that Im -against- Game-Shattering Power, but I feel the ATs and powersets start to lose some of their distinction under the weight of incarnates and set bonuses, so it might be cool?

[jack_nomind]

As much as I love the madness unleashed by IOs and Incarnates, I may start doing a series of ‘no sets, no incarnates’ characters.  -Maybe- SOs only, though lvl 50 IOs and HammiOs do open up possibilities.

 

You mean like the ones in my signature?

[Chaos String]

Lusca is easily soloable on a couple ATs.

 

Hint: scrappers aren't one of them.

[marcussmythe]

As much as I love the madness unleashed by IOs and Incarnates, I may start doing a series of ‘no sets, no incarnates’ characters.  -Maybe- SOs only, though lvl 50 IOs and HammiOs do open up possibilities.

 

You mean like the ones in my signature?

 

Yes, exactly like that.  I think you may be part of what got me thinking about it.  Once IO Set Bonuses and Incarnates come into it, everyone is a buffing/debuffing/tank/nuker, with IO set bonuses and Incarnate Abilities kinda 'overwhelming' the underlying character, till it feels like AT/Powerset is just a matter of choosing a good 'framework' to support Set Boni and Incarnate stuff.

[Murcielago]

As much as I love the madness unleashed by IOs and Incarnates, I may start doing a series of ‘no sets, no incarnates’ characters.  -Maybe- SOs only, though lvl 50 IOs and HammiOs do open up possibilities.

 

You mean like the ones in my signature?

 

Yes, exactly like that.  I think you may be part of what got me thinking about it.  Once IO Set Bonuses and Incarnates come into it, everyone is a buffing/debuffing/tank/nuker, with IO set bonuses and Incarnate Abilities kinda 'overwhelming' the underlying character, till it feels like AT/Powerset is just a matter of choosing a good 'framework' to support Set Boni and Incarnate stuff.

 

That's the appeal of this game, prior to IOs and after ED, the game really took on the you have to team to advance flavor and it didn't sit well with me. IOs freed me up to solo more content that I would have otherwise been squashed by.

[StarseedWarrior]

Mmos get ruined when its not team encouraged, part of the reason why cox is so good is the importance and diversity of team roles, I hear you on being able to solo but lets not want that in sacrifice of team things to.

[Murcielago]

Mmos get ruined when its not team encouraged, part of the reason why cox is so good is the importance and diversity of team roles, I hear you on being able to solo but lets not want that in sacrifice of team things to.

I agree, CoH does a good job of balancing solo'ing and teaming. There's no way to solo most endgame trials/tfs.

[marcussmythe]

As much as I love the madness unleashed by IOs and Incarnates, I may start doing a series of ‘no sets, no incarnates’ characters.  -Maybe- SOs only, though lvl 50 IOs and HammiOs do open up possibilities.

 

You mean like the ones in my signature?

 

Yes, exactly like that.  I think you may be part of what got me thinking about it.  Once IO Set Bonuses and Incarnates come into it, everyone is a buffing/debuffing/tank/nuker, with IO set bonuses and Incarnate Abilities kinda 'overwhelming' the underlying character, till it feels like AT/Powerset is just a matter of choosing a good 'framework' to support Set Boni and Incarnate stuff.

 

That's the appeal of this game, prior to IOs and after ED, the game really took on the you have to team to advance flavor and it didn't sit well with me. IOs freed me up to solo more content that I would have otherwise been squashed by.

 

I guess my gripe (inasmuch as I have one) is that IOs and Incarnates and some later powers/sets are so much better at raising practical survivabity on a soft character than they are on raising practical offense on a tough character.  This is largely because Tanks were already so tough it was kinda silly, the fact that IOs and their ilk are soo good at DEF and RCHG and soo bad at damage, but mostly due to the ‘increasing return on further investment’ that you hit when slathering on defense and resist as they approach the cap.

 

Its also waaaay too late to fix it, in terms of game design- and its not like a Tanker cant be radically tougher than the higher damage ATs.  Its just that unless your job is annoying Lord Recluse with lots of towers up, the tank is wasting that survivability advantage, and once you reach ‘baddies cant kill me’ anything extra is fluff and yould be better served to flatten those baddies faster.

 

*shower thoughts*  Bruising was a step in the right direction - 20% Res Debuff is handy, and in theory allows the Tanker to 'make up' a little of what they are missing.  The big problem is that it doesnt stack, doesnt last all that long, is only on the first (often worst) attack in the set, and the targets that it would be most valuable against (AVs) are basically immune to it.  If the Bruising debuff was propagated to the rest of the Tanker Secondary attacks, was unresistable, and could stack some - and/or had a -regen component, equally unresisted - Id feel like the tank brought something of value in late game to make up for for what it loses in damage.

 

[jack_nomind]

*shower thoughts*  Bruising was a step in the right direction - 20% Res Debuff is handy, and in theory allows the Tanker to 'make up' a little of what they are missing.  The big problem is that it doesnt stack, doesnt last all that long, is only on the first (often worst) attack in the set, and the targets that it would be most valuable against (AVs) are basically immune to it.  If the Bruising debuff was propagated to the rest of the Tanker Secondary attacks, was unresistable, and could stack some - and/or had a -regen component, equally unresisted - Id feel like the tank brought something of value in late game to make up for for what it loses in damage.

 

sign on!

[Chaos String]

*shower thoughts*  Bruising was a step in the right direction - 20% Res Debuff is handy, and in theory allows the Tanker to 'make up' a little of what they are missing.  The big problem is that it doesnt stack, doesnt last all that long, is only on the first (often worst) attack in the set, and the targets that it would be most valuable against (AVs) are basically immune to it.  If the Bruising debuff was propagated to the rest of the Tanker Secondary attacks, was unresistable, and could stack some - and/or had a -regen component, equally unresisted - Id feel like the tank brought something of value in late game to make up for for what it loses in damage.

 

Just to point out: AVs don't resist -res debuffs.

 

https://cityofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Archvillain_Resistance

[jack_nomind]

Just to point out: AVs don't resist -res debuffs.

 

https://cityofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Archvillain_Resistance

 

Everything resists -res debuffs, although exactly what that means might be different than you think.

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Resistance_(Mechanics)#Resistance_to_Resistance_Debuffs

[Chaos String]

I understand that mechanic.  I should clarify: AV Resistances offer no special resistance to -res.  Hence Bruising is as useful against AVs as it is against anything.

[_NOPE_]

[marcussmythe]

*shower thoughts*  Bruising was a step in the right direction - 20% Res Debuff is handy, and in theory allows the Tanker to 'make up' a little of what they are missing.  The big problem is that it doesnt stack, doesnt last all that long, is only on the first (often worst) attack in the set, and the targets that it would be most valuable against (AVs) are basically immune to it.  If the Bruising debuff was propagated to the rest of the Tanker Secondary attacks, was unresistable, and could stack some - and/or had a -regen component, equally unresisted - Id feel like the tank brought something of value in late game to make up for for what it loses in damage.

 

Just to point out: AVs don't resist -res debuffs.

 

https://cityofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Archvillain_Resistance

 

Well, Hunh.  Could have sworn they didnt.  Good to know.

[Sarrate]

Something else to consider: Bruising is implemented as a temporary power that reduces resistance, not as a debuff from the power itself. What this means is that it always operates at full strength and isn't reduced against higher level mobs (the mob is debuffing itself). How useful that is depends on what kind of content you're facing, of course. (A +4 would normally reduce its effectiveness to 48% (source).)

[HoundsTooth]

Play content without IOs and come back and say the same thing but you can't. It takes a lot of INF, IOs, and time to make any AT trivialize content. A brute or scrapper cannot solo +4 x8 without IOs, they would absolutely get demolished.

 

As much as I love the madness unleashed by IOs and Incarnates, I may start doing a series of ‘no sets, no incarnates’ characters.  -Maybe- SOs only, though lvl 50 IOs and HammiOs do open up possibilities.

 

Not that Im -against- Game-Shattering Power, but I feel the ATs and powersets start to lose some of their distinction under the weight of incarnates and set bonuses, so it might be cool?

 

You could try having two builds? One OP build with lots of sets and other build with just SO's. You can switch between the two.

 

I change my mindset as I play. Levels 1-45 are when I can have a regular build. Once I get closer to 50 and get veteran levels, I like the challenge of getting the most OP build I can afford.