Give all Tanker Primaries Knockback Resistance

[arcane]

8 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Not really, some sets are just older and were built during a time where the balance concerns were different and the game died before they could get a proper update. New sets have all these things because the developers knew that the game had changed.

 

This is why stalkers, blasters and scrappers (with the help of that lovely ATO) are on top of the world right now. They got their big and important updates. Armor sets still have some pretty glaring disparities between them. Dark and invuln have held up pretty well, but the former really shouldn't have the amount of status holes it does with the amount of work you need to put into it. Meanwhile, rad armor comes packaged with a pretty hefty supply of slow/knock protection, to the point where you don't need to put a single zephyr into a rad build.

You’re like the fourth person to remove that quote from its context. I get it 🙂

[Zeraphia]

On 2/10/2022 at 2:53 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

I have to devote a ton of slots on my Invuln tank in order to have enough defense and resistance to psi damage so that Carnies won't wreak me. My Invuln tank also doesn't have nearly as much regen as my Willpower tank has. Should we change that too?

 

If you're having a hard time tanking Lord Recluse on a fire tank maybe use a different tank instead? Different armor sets have different strengths and weaknesses, and that's ok. I disagree with changing it. Not all armor sets should be the same.

Okay let me just throw this out here that really anything can tank LR with inspirations and mechanical skill or knowing the mechanics behind LR's repeated tower diving to... even just properly placing a craftable work bench in the right location to prevent him from moving during that phase (lol I kid you not this really is a thing...) 

 

But I think dismissing the idea that some Tanking sets far underperform their duties because "every set should be different" is wrong. Some sets really do need rebalancing in terms of how bad they have become in recent years, especially with how rampant Radiation Armor is in the current state of the game. Invulnerability not only lacks psi resistances, it lacks meaningful damage amplification and does not provide more actual resistances than something like Rad Armor which gets both (and caps its resistances to nearly all damage in the game.)

 

I just don't really like the excuse of "well everything should be different" when some things do genuinely need a rebalance/buff. Energy Melee clearly needed something done to it (now whether its current form is way overtuned is another argument...), as did Electric Blast. Some sets need things to set them apart and make them a worthy pick at the character creation screen. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

25 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

But I think dismissing the idea that some Tanking sets far underperform their duties because "every set should be different" is wrong.

I'm dismissing the idea that Fiery Aura should be given KB protection because the given reason was that it can't tank ONE ENEMY in the entire game.

 

But ok, let's talk about underperforming sets.

 

Let's remember though that it's highly possible that the sets that underperform may be closer to what the devs think is supposed to be the baseline. So if the devs decide to go and balance all of the armor sets then they may decide to nerf the newer ones, as they did with Titan Weapons. So, be careful what you wish for.

 

29 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Invulnerability not only lacks psi resistances, it lacks meaningful damage amplification...

Every set should have 1 weakness. Also, not every set should have damage amplification. If the AT needs every set to have damage amplification then they might as well just up the AT's damage across the board. They recently did just that with tanks. So, as far as I'm concerned, tanker Invuln did get a damage buff.

 

33 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Energy Melee clearly needed something done to it...

Energy Melee was deliberately broken by the live devs as a response to something. Don't say it was because of PvP though, because certain people on this forum will turn green and go berserk. It has almost no AoE output, which is the PvE meta, so the only place that EM was the meta was PvP. But that can't possibly be why it was nerfed, no sir!

 

Ok, I'm better now. Anyway, I suppose the other possible reason was that they didn't want it to overperform in comparison to the powersets they were selling on the market. Of course that would have required the developers to be procognizant, as EM was nerfed in 2008 with issue 12 or 13 and CoH didn't go free-to-play until 2011 with Issue 21.

 

Yeah, that must be why the live devs nerfed Energy Melee. They had precognition.

 

53 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Some sets need things to set them apart and make them a worthy pick at the character creation screen. 

Oh, I completely agree. The devs really should do something to motivate people to pick Fiery Aura more often. Oh, wait! Fiery Aura Brutes pretty much outnumber all of the other characters in existence.

 

Well, there goes that argument.

[Marbing]

25 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'm dismissing the idea that Fiery Aura should be given KB protection because the given reason was that it can't tank ONE ENEMY in the entire game.

 

But ok, let's talk about underperforming sets.

 

Let's remember though that it's highly possible that the sets that underperform may be closer to what the devs think is supposed to be the baseline. So if the devs decide to go and balance all of the armor sets then they may decide to nerf the newer ones, as they did with Titan Weapons. So, be careful what you wish for.

 

Every set should have 1 weakness. Also, not every set should have damage amplification. If the AT needs every set to have damage amplification then they might as well just up the AT's damage across the board. They recently did just that with tanks. So, as far as I'm concerned, tanker Invuln did get a damage buff.

 

Energy Melee was deliberately broken by the live devs as a response to something. Don't say it was because of PvP though, because certain people on this forum will turn green and go berserk. It has almost no AoE output, which is the PvE meta, so the only place that EM was the meta was PvP. But that can't possibly be why it was nerfed, no sir!

 

Ok, I'm better now. Anyway, I suppose the other possible reason was that they didn't want it to overperform in comparison to the powersets they were selling on the market. Of course that would have required the developers to be procognizant, as EM was nerfed in 2008 with issue 12 or 13 and CoH didn't go free-to-play until 2011 with Issue 21.

 

Yeah, that must be why the live devs nerfed Energy Melee. They had precognition.

 

Oh, I completely agree. The devs really should do something to motivate people to pick Fiery Aura more often. Oh, wait! Fiery Aura Brutes pretty much outnumber all of the other characters in existence.

 

Well, there goes that argument.

You make some good points here but keep relying on the same few arguments:
 

1) Brute fiery aura outnumbers ever other set BECAUSE OF FARMING. They are rare outside of that.

 

2) Fiery Aura doesn’t need help in its current state, but if they nerf/fix burn then Fiery Aura loses its big advantage and thus becomes a weak set overall. The argument (at least the one I’ve made) for buffing fiery aura is around making sure it doesn’t lose its 1 advantage without getting some form of balancing compensation. Also, you say every set should have 1 weakness, Fiery Aura currently has 2 major holes, not 1. And those holes I am fine with, if Burn stays as is. But not so much if it becomes weaker… depends on what they do.

 

3) That one enemy was brought up as an example. The sets that underperform usually underperform in many different situations not just that 1. @Galaxy Brain I believe did a test on the different armor sets survival against MULTIPLE enemy groups and Fiery Aura and Dark Armor consistently performed dead last under pretty much every test. Granted it was a baseline test but it shows that their foundation isn’t as strong as others. Which, again, is fine for Fiery Aura in its current state. Maybe not so fine for Dark Armor… I will see if I can find it, if he doesn’t post it here first…

Edited February 14, 2022 by th0ughtGun

[Galaxy Brain]

19 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

You make some good points here but keep relying on the same few arguments:
 

1) Brute fiery aura outnumbers ever other set BECAUSE OF FARMING. They are rare outside of that.

 

2) Fiery Aura doesn’t need help in its current state, but if they nerf/fix burn then Fiery Aura loses its big advantage and thus becomes a weak set overall. The argument (at least the one I’ve made) for buffing fiery aura is around making sure it doesn’t lose its 1 advantage without getting some form of balancing compensation. Also, you say every set should have 1 weakness, Fiery Aura currently has 2 major holes, not 1. And those holes I am fine with, if Burn stays as is. But not so much if it becomes weaker… depends on what they do.

 

3) That one enemy was brought up as an example. The sets that underperform usually underperform in many different situations not just that 1. @Galaxy Brain I believe did a test on the different armor sets survival against MULTIPLE enemy groups and Fiery Aura and Dark Armor consistently performed dead last under pretty much every test. Granted it was a baseline test but it shows that their foundation isn’t as strong as others. Which, again, is fine for Fiery Aura in its current state. Maybe not so fine for Dark Armor… I will see if I can find it, if he doesn’t post it here first…

 

 

This would be the "Tough Test" 🙂

[PeregrineFalcon]

28 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

You make some good points here but keep relying on the same few arguments:

When the argument is correct, and the factors haven't changed since the last statement, there's no point in changing arguments.

 

29 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

1) Brute fiery aura outnumbers ever other set BECAUSE OF FARMING. They are rare outside of that.

And they are used for farming because they have the highest AoE damage output. That's their strength. Their weakness is that they are the least tough of the armor sets. That isn't broken, that's by design. The entire game is balanced like this.

 

This does not mean that Fiery Aura is underperforming. Fiery Aura's entire schtick is that it's weak armor but high damage output. Arguing that Fiery Aura needs to be tougher is like arguing that Blasters need some defense and a mez toggle.

 

33 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

2) Fiery Aura doesn’t need help in its current state, but if they nerf/fix burn then Fiery Aura loses its big advantage and thus becomes a weak set overall.

Really? What did farmers do before damage procs? Oh yeah, they farmed with Fiery Aura Brutes. Just because it's the weakest set doesn't mean that it needs a buff. In a game where not every set is exactly the same, one is going to be the best and one is going to be the worst.

 

36 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

3) That one enemy was brought up as an example. The sets that underperform usually underperform in many different situations not just that 1.

Yes, that one enemy was brought up as an example. So bring up a different example to prove your point. If Fiery Aura really does underperform that badly coming up with a common example should be easy.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

 Invulnerability not only lacks psi resistances, it lacks meaningful damage amplification and does not provide more actual resistances than something like Rad Armor which gets both (and caps its resistances to nearly all damage in the game.)

 

Invulnerability does have offensive buffs: +ToHit is an offense buff. Meaningful is going to be mostly subjective because it's likely going to end up needing to be +dmg, +rech or/and a damaging attack to be considered meaningful.

 

From that perspective, I would argue saying it's wrong to underperform just to be different is going to net you the most hiccups because the mainline changes you're going to push for *WILL* be the same. You're going to end up morphing the sets into the same thing with only cosmetic differences and maybe the way you use the offensive power. 

 

Energy melee changes is actually a decent example of the results you're looking for that pretty much makes it a different colored flavor of most other melee sets. Dark melee was close too and eventually will share it's same fate.

[Apparition]

2 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

Okay let me just throw this out here that really anything can tank LR with inspirations and mechanical skill or knowing the mechanics behind LR's repeated tower diving to... even just properly placing a craftable work bench in the right location to prevent him from moving during that phase (lol I kid you not this really is a thing...) 

 

 

Was a thing.  It was an exploit that was fixed with the launch of Page Three.  Workbenches are now mobile and will follow the PC, cannot be collided with, and cannot trap PCs nor NPCs.

[Marbing]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Yes, that one enemy was brought up as an example. So bring up a different example to prove your point. If Fiery Aura really does underperform that badly coming up with a common example should be easy.

A) I didn’t bring up the point and don’t entirely agree with it in FA’s current state. 

 

B) See Galaxy Brains post.

 

 

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Really? What did farmers do before damage procs? Oh yeah, they farmed with Fiery Aura Brutes. Just because it's the weakest set doesn't mean that it needs a buff. In a game where not every set is exactly the same, one is going to be the best and one is going to be the worst.

Lol. Fiery Aura before procs was objectively worse than Fiery Aura now, but it was still the cheapest and most efficient way to farm. That doesn’t mean it was great at anything else. In fact, it was even less common back then to see a fiery aura toon out of a farm unless it was paired with Ice Melee or Dark Melee.
 

Do you understand how farming works and why Fiery Aura is so popular with farming? Legit question. You keep bringing up farming like it’s evidence of Fiery Aura greatness. Farming isn’t normal PvE gameplay. You do know there is a difference don’t you?

 

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

And they are used for farming because they have the highest AoE damage output. That's their strength. Their weakness is that they are the least tough of the armor sets. That isn't broken, that's by design. The entire game is balanced like this.

 

This does not mean that Fiery Aura is underperforming. Fiery Aura's entire schtick is that it's weak armor but high damage output. Arguing that Fiery Aura needs to be tougher is like arguing that Blasters need some defense and a mez toggle.

For what feels like the millionth time. I don’t think Fiery Aura is CURRENTLY underperforming. I think it will be IF THEY NERF/FIX BURN. You disagree, that’s fine… how about stick with that?

 

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

When the argument is correct, and the factors haven't changed since the last statement, there's no point in changing arguments.

Lol for all the reasons mentioned above.

 

Edit: And see arcane’s or macskull’s post about what happened when they did nerf/fix burn.

Edited February 14, 2022 by th0ughtGun

[BrandX]

Dark Armor doesn't need KB Protection.  It needs the ability to cap Negative Resistance all on it's own.

 

Do Scrapper consider Burn to be a good offense when the enemies run from them when it's used instead of staying in the fire?

Edited February 14, 2022 by BrandX

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, BrandX said:

So Scrapper consider Burn to be a good offense when the enemies run from them when it's used instead of staying in the fire?

 

No, it's a mitigation tool. If they're runnin, they're not attacking you.

[BrandX]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

No, it's a mitigation tool. If they're runnin, they're not attacking you.

 

Fixed my typo (Do...not...So...on the question).  That's what I'm thinking, but I don't have a Fire Armor scrapper.

[arcane]

8 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

No, it's a mitigation tool. If they're runnin, they're not attacking you.

Not to mention that the real meat of Burn’s damage is upfront anyway now..