Null The Gull -> Knockback to Knockdown

[flyinggecko2]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

Putting players into a position in which they have to choose between potentially being ostracized, or having to give up critical personal protective powers?

 

Did you forget your coffee this morning?

I'm already in that position as an AR/DEV blaster. I have to chose between being ostracized by slotting KB->KD while simultaneously also giving up a large amount of critical personal protection in the form of set bonus'

 

My solution was to switch to beam rifle. I would much rather have kept the assault rifle, without having to chose between annoying the **** out of my friends, or spending significantly more time face-down.

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

My only argument lay below. Electric Shackles has better DPA than BOTH Snap and Aimed Shot. Hard to make the argument that it's not supposed to be considered a damage attack. Especially considering that these three attacks are the ones you get to use while mezzed. And this is NOT only the case with archery/atomic. They just happen to be the first in the list with Mids due to alphabetical order.

 

Edit: But of course I agree that the highest damage attack chain probably doesn't use any of them.

 

Huh. I was going to say "Except you can't.", but then I popped in game and tried. I never knew the blaster secondary's T1 could also be used while mezzed. Live and learn, I guess. (Die and forget, but let's try and postpone that part for a bit.)

 

(Edit: I died trying it out, but that's what happens when the only mobs you can think of where to find are all uber purple for your experiment. 😄)

Edited March 4, 2022 by Rudra

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, th0ughtGun said:

So I was wondering if we could focus on those instead of all powers to see if there is anything that can be tweaked about the magnitude of some of those powers. 

 

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that mindset. I have sg mates that only slot the kb-kd io in aoe powers. Hell, even I see the benefit of KB when I'm solo. Let's not forget that my first character ever and still main had knockback in shockwave for YEARS before I was given the option to change it to KD.

 

This is precisely why player choice should matter. This is why a global IO to change all KB to KD (or even an All Knock is Disabled option) is desired, be it an IO or a Null the Gull option.

[BrandX]

5 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Actually I would be down with this variation of the suggestion. Just turn ALL KB off.

 

All knock on a character off and lose the ability to slot knockback IOs!

[flyinggecko2]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

You can choose not to take the powers/power set that cause knockback.

 

Edit: This is my personal belief, but taking a set based on knockback and being upset it does knockback is like taking a fire set and being upset it burns.

AR/DEV attacks with knockback:

Slug

Buckshot

M30

Sniper rifle

Time Bomb

Trip Mine

 

There's really not much left....

 

[Rudra]

As far as modifying KB to KD, I am adamantly opposed to it being a Null the Gull thing. I was in favor of the current proc becoming a global, but thinking about it more, I prefer the idea of a new set. It has no KB to KD proc, but has a set bonus after 3 or 4 enhancements from the set are slotted of global KB to KD effect. (Edit: Like someone else posted earlier in the thread. Sorry, can't remember your name and currently disinclined to search the thread right now.)

 

Edit (again): And just to keep things simple, this new set would be a knockback set.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Rudra

[flyinggecko2]

3 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

All knock on a character off and lose the ability to slot knockback IOs!

I agree with the lose knockback, but I would like to point out that dual pistols can slot enhancements for abilities that it's attacks don't actually grant.

 

While I'm not really against your suggestion, I just think it makes it much harder to implement. If I have knockback enhancements slotted, then switch off knockback, what would happen to those enhancements? I don't think there is a precedence for that, and would likely be difficult to implement.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, flyinggecko2 said:

AR/DEV attacks with knockback:

Slug

Buckshot

M30

Sniper rifle

Time Bomb

Trip Mine

 

There's really not much left....

 

I'm actually kinda envious of the knockback in that set you are not happy with. I can only get the Buckshot's KB to routinely trigger on my AR character. Every blue moon or so, Slug does too, but otherwise I'm screaming at the mobs "Stay away, you animals! In the name of all that is holy, STAY AWAY!!!! AAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!" Or something similar.

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

secondly, if I could have it my way, I’d keep knockback but would want the knockback to deal bonus damage to enemies based on the strength of the knockback.

I'm not sure that doing more damage just from the knockback works, particularly if your target is resistant to knockback; that should be baked into the power. However, I support doing additional damage based on distance that your target would have been knocked back if their 'flight' is interrupted by hitting something. For example, if you hit a mob, and they would have been knocked back forty feet, but there was a wall ten feet behind them that stops them, they should take Smashing damage from the impact just as they would from a fall.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

I'm not sure that doing more damage just from the knockback works, particularly if your target is resistant to knockback; that should be baked into the power. However, I support doing additional damage based on distance that your target would have been knocked back if their 'flight' is interrupted by hitting something. For example, if you hit a mob, and they would have been knocked back forty feet, but there was a wall ten feet behind them that stops them, they should take Smashing damage from the impact just as they would from a fall.

Yeah, that was the bonus damage from knockback I was thinking of. In the Champions pen and paper game, knockback only does damage if the target slams into something. Or half damage if it goes the full distance without hitting anything if they hit the ground. So using a variation of the fall mechanic for knockback was what I was thinking of.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to separate and clarify statement.

[Bill Z Bubba]

17 minutes ago, Rudra said:

As far as modifying KB to KD, I am adamantly opposed to it being a Null the Gull thing. I was in favor of the current proc becoming a global, but thinking about it more, I prefer the idea of a new set. It has no KB to KD proc, but has a set bonus after 3 or 4 enhancements from the set are slotted of global KB to KD effect. (Edit: Like someone else posted earlier in the thread. Sorry, can't remember your name and currently disinclined to search the thread right now.)

 

This sounds like a decent compromise.

[flyinggecko2]

2 hours ago, Crasical said:

The problem I feel is that the other Null toggles are saying 'You can do this but I don't want it to effect me'. Which is more than fair! Curate your experience. But there's not really a way to implement a "You can use knockback but I don't want it to effect me" flag; this suggestion would just lead to a lot of "Hey go change how YOU play because it annoys ME", which is more intrusive than I think a Null flag should be.

 

So instead, we have "go respec your character and slot different (sub-par) enhancements that will significantly weakened your character because your choices are getting me and my friends killed. "

 

Which is WAY more intrusive than Null The Gull would be.

[Rudra]

Having KD hardly makes a character subpar. Changing KB to KD doesn't make a character subpar either. My Bane Spider only really survives because of all the knockdown. (My energy blaster on the other hand? Will not slot the KB to KD procs. It's way too much fun to go "Bowling for Dollars with Group Du Jour". I change my play style when I team on my energy blast character, but even on TFs/SFs, noone has complained about my knockback.)

Edited March 4, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add last parenthesis.

[Naraka]

41 minutes ago, flyinggecko2 said:

 

If I am teaming up with my friends, I would greatly prefer not to get them killed by knocking mobs put of our brutes taunt aura.

 

 

If that ends up killing people, that must be the most unadaptive team that could exist and they should feel lame and just admit that they need every crutch in the game to be able to beat a gang of low level skulls.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Naraka said:

 

If that ends up killing people, that must be the most unadaptive team that could exist and they should feel lame and just admit that they need every crutch in the game to be able to beat a gang of low level skulls.

That comment is a bit too much. I agree that the team as described is showing an amazing inability to cope with a situation, especially if the brute (or tank) can't just taunt the mobs right back. Belittling others to make a point is uncalled for though.

[MTeague]

I really don't get the Knockback hate. Never have, never will. 

 

It's just not that traumatic to me if my fireball only hits 4 targets intead of 10. 

Or if my scrapper has to take two steps forward before slashing. 

Somehow, I manage to hold onto my equinamity and just enjoy the game. 

 

But it's threads like this that make me roll a Storm / Energy defender. Who will NEVER use KB-to-KD's, and who will NEVER talk to Null, even if this idea were implemented.

[Crasical]

1 minute ago, flyinggecko2 said:

So instead, we have "go respec your character and slot different (sub-par) enhancements that will significantly weakened your character because your choices are getting me and my friends killed. "

 

I know some people feel that way, but until we get a consensus on 'Knockback in any form is Griefing', I don't feel like anyone has any right to go around telling other people how to play or build their characters.

Going to Null and say 'hey don't let people use Mystic Fortune on me' does not inhibit their ability to use and enjoy Mystic Fortune. Putting a -KB option in Null is so you can tell *other people* to go change their settings. There's a difference.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, MTeague said:

But it's threads like this that make me roll a Storm / Energy defender. Who will NEVER use KB-to-KD's, and who will NEVER talk to Null, even if this idea were implemented.

 

But at that point, it's important to go all in and slot for max KB.

 

And then invite me to your team one night so I can play something that grooves properly with it and it will absolutely be a frellin hoot.

 

This is not sarcasm. Every manner of all X whatever teams in this game are freaking awesome. I'd happily bring my PB or Emp/Nrn Defender on one of those.

[Marbing]

36 minutes ago, Rudra said:

As far as modifying KB to KD, I am adamantly opposed to it being a Null the Gull thing. I was in favor of the current proc becoming a global, but thinking about it more, I prefer the idea of a new set. It has no KB to KD proc, but has a set bonus after 3 or 4 enhancements from the set are slotted of global KB to KD effect. (Edit: Like someone else posted earlier in the thread. Sorry, can't remember your name and currently disinclined to search the thread right now.)

 

Edit (again): And just to keep things simple, this new set would be a knockback set.

That was me that mentioned that earlier, but yes I think this would be a good compromise. 

EDIT: Do I sense a possible Purple KB IO set! 😮 

Edited March 4, 2022 by th0ughtGun

[MTeague]

8 hours ago, kelika2 said:

you only get fun from griefing other players?

 

Use of knockback is not, in fact, griefing other players. It's using powers that the devs specifically put into the game for players to use against enemies becusae it's FUN, and sometimes very tactically advantageous. (mobs standing back up are not mobs that are shooting at you)

 

Some of us just enjoy sending the bad guys flying. Has nothing to do with how anyone else reacts to it. 

It's purely a lulz / endorphin thing of ragdolling the enemy.

 

Now if we were teamed, and I used it, and you threw a fit because I used knockback, well, if I joined the team more recently than you, I'd drop team.  If you joined team more recently than me, I'd probably shrug and continue on as I was, unless someone who'd been on the team longer than me objected to it.  But it has nothing to do with griefing you, or diabolically laughing as I log in my energy blaster. It has everything to do with actually ENJOYING the powerset.

 

 

[flyinggecko2]

31 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm actually kinda envious of the knockback in that set you are not happy with. I can only get the Buckshot's KB to routinely trigger on my AR character. Every blue moon or so, Slug does too, but otherwise I'm screaming at the mobs "Stay away, you animals! In the name of all that is holy, STAY AWAY!!!! AAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!" Or something similar.

Have you tried teaming up with a tank?

[flyinggecko2]

1 minute ago, MTeague said:

 

Use of knockback is not, in fact, griefing other players. It's using powers that the devs specifically put into the game for players to use against enemies becusae it's FUN, and sometimes very tactically advantageous. (mobs standing back up are not mobs that are shooting at you)

 

Some of us just enjoy sending the bad guys flying. Has nothing to do with how anyone else reacts to it. 

It's purely a lulz / endorphin thing of ragdolling the enemy.

 

Now if we were teamed, and I used it, and you threw a fit because I used knockback, well, if I joined the team more recently than you, I'd drop team.  If you joined team more recently than me, I'd probably shrug and continue on as I was, unless someone who'd been on the team longer than me objected to it.  But it has nothing to do with griefing you, or diabolically laughing as I log in my energy blaster. It has everything to do with actually ENJOYING the powerset.

 

 

And the OPTION to turn it off would make absolutely no difference to you while simultaneously  improving my actually ENJOYING the powerset.

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 minutes ago, flyinggecko2 said:

Have you tried teaming up with a tank?

My main is a tank. Has been since I created the character back in 2006 during Issue 7. My best friend's main is an Eng/Eng Blaster.

 

We spent years duo-ing on the retail forums. It was great. We've duo-d for years on Homecoming. Still great! You know what happens when he knocks someone away from me? He kills it and I just change targets.

 

"But Peregrine, changing targets is difficult."  😭

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, TheZag said:

Group fly prevents players from using abilities that require being on the ground.  My titan weapons scrapper cant use Arc of Destruction if someone on my team runs group fly.  I literally lose a power if i couldnt disable group fly from others.  Several other powers in the game require being on the ground as well and a few still work if you are flying near the ground.

And it can work the other way, too. The HC staff added 'pull' to Singularity; I regularly see mobs in MSRs getting pulled into the air in the middle of the bowl,and less often during other content. There are a number of powers that require the target to be on the ground. The moment a Singularity yanks a mob off the ground, Seismic Blast loses a power against it. Is this annoying? Yes; in the roil of power effects, it may not be noticeable that a mob is airborne. It can be caused incidentally by other powers, too -- a mob standing on the object produced by Propel is not "on the ground" for targeting purposes. Some holds lift the target off the ground.

 

In a group that works together across an extended period of time, it's reasonable to expect the members to tailor their actions to work together to best effect. For the vast majority of grouping in CoH, a teammate could be 'Fred from the planet Fred' for all you know about them, and expecting them to tailor their abilities to your prejudices about how you want fights to go is setting yourself up as the arbiter of the One True Way to Play...

[SwitchFade]

Perspective is an interesting thing. Staring at a tree from 1 inch away tends to obscure one's vision, save the tree.

 

The perspective that knock back is so hugely, engrossingly terrible is quite... Interesting.

 

So, apparently, knocking something back away from you or another is so catastrophically terrible because....

 

Pressing W is bad?

 

Zergspeed is reduced by 10%? Ack?

 

AoE efficacy is not properly saturated and maximized to the 42nd prime meridian? The humanity?

 

Foes that are ragdolled and unable to drub you about the ears is nonobad?

 

Hmm. Really, knock back is so bad it's like someone flushing documents down a toilet? Or kicking bunnies?

 

Interesting. Perspective, neh?

Edited March 4, 2022 by SwitchFade