Null The Gull -> Knockback to Knockdown

[flyinggecko2]

GI think the title says it all. 
I would love it if Null The Gull could simply make all my knockback powers into knockdown.
The 'Enhancement Tax' on these powers drastically lowers their performance.

 

 

EDIT: The suggestion to have the option to disable knockback, as opposed to changing it to knockdown, was proposed by Naraka. I think this is a fabulous idea! It doesn't 'invalidate' the KB->KD IO's while still addressing the root of the problem: being a detriment to the team.

Edited March 4, 2022 by flyinggecko2

[PeregrineFalcon]

[Rudra]

It's not an enhancement tax. Using the KB to KD enhancement gives you access to more of the set bonuses. Now, if the only enhancement from that set you are using is the KB to KD proc, that is your choice.

 

Besides, as has already been discussed in other threads, Null is a poor cop out for problems that could not be addressed in other ways. Adding more options to Null the Gull is something that is discouraged. Especially when other options to achieve the same effect in the game already exist. So, sorry. Adding this feature to Null serves no real purpose.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Anti-jranger.

 

I'm so very sick and tired of this discussion and all the idiotic reasons NOT to do it.

 

We can block other people's team teleport and team fly. Why? Because it was annoying the hell out of us.

We can disable the travel power and Kheldian form shifting pop up power bar. Why? Because it was annoying the hell out of us.

We can set ourselves to always accept or deny mystic fortune. Why? Because the popup request was annoying the hell out of us.

 

I, for one, want to keep what hell I have in me.

 

Knockback, as per the weekly thread on the topic, obviously, also annoys the hell out of many of us, and those that wish to continue using it may do so, and I can avoid teaming with those people while having my enjoyment of many powers greatly increased by not having to waste a slot on them to make them stop being ridiculously annoying.

 

So, yes, signed, agreed, please, I personally implore you, HC Developers, add the ability to Null the Gull to turn all of a character's KB into KD and let's just be done with this shit once and for all.

[Naraka]

Considering most view such a change as a "buff" and also how it has broken some powers, I'd counter this suggestion with a more balanced option.

 

Don't turn KB into KD, just turn KB *Off*. You want to turn a "tax" into a free slot, then you owe something back. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Naraka

[Outrider_01]

Don't group and avoid energy blast 👍

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

We can block other people's team teleport and team fly. Why? Because it was annoying the hell out of us.

We can disable the travel power and Kheldian form shifting pop up power bar. Why? Because it was annoying the hell out of us.

We can set ourselves to always accept or deny mystic fortune. Why? Because the popup request was annoying the hell out of us.

Team teleport and group fly are powers that other players can use on you whether you want it or not. So Null disabling that is fine.

Travel power pop up tray was imposed on players by HC. Null disabling that is fine.

Mystic fortune is used by other players on you. Null disabling that is fine.

 

KB-based powers are the player's choice. Null disabling that makes much less sense.

 

37 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Considering most view such a change as a "buff" and also how it has broken some powers, I'd counter this suggestion with a more balanced option.

 

Don't turn KB into KD, just turn KB *Off*. You want to turn a "tax" into a free slot, then you owe something back. 

I'm still opposed to Null having any effect on KB. However, if it is to be done, your idea makes much more sense. They don't want KB on their powers? They don't get KD either. They want KD? They gotta pay the "Enhancement Tax" for the proc's advantage.

 

Edit: After all, every other power set that wants KD has to pay the "Enhancement Tax".

Edited March 4, 2022 by Rudra

[Parabola]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Anti-jranger.

 

I'm so very sick and tired of this discussion and all the idiotic reasons NOT to do it.

 

We can block other people's team teleport and team fly. Why? Because it was annoying the hell out of us.

We can disable the travel power and Kheldian form shifting pop up power bar. Why? Because it was annoying the hell out of us.

We can set ourselves to always accept or deny mystic fortune. Why? Because the popup request was annoying the hell out of us.

 

I, for one, want to keep what hell I have in me.

 

Knockback, as per the weekly thread on the topic, obviously, also annoys the hell out of many of us, and those that wish to continue using it may do so, and I can avoid teaming with those people while having my enjoyment of many powers greatly increased by not having to waste a slot on them to make them stop being ridiculously annoying.

 

So, yes, signed, agreed, please, I personally implore you, HC Developers, add the ability to Null the Gull to turn all of a character's KB into KD and let's just be done with this shit once and for all.

I'm inclined to agree, simply from the point of view that this clearly isn't something that is ever going away. All the balance discussions and other arguments against doing it, no matter how valid, don't stop people finding kb an annoying feature of the game. We will go around and around this discussion forever and it's tedious.

 

47 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Considering most view such a change as a "buff" and also how it has broken some powers, I'd counter this suggestion with a more balanced option.

 

Don't turn KB into KD, just turn KB *Off*. You want to turn a "tax" into a free slot, then you owe something back. 

This is interesting. The question of course is how much the kb in a set like energy blast really adds to its power. Personally I've always found myself more frustrated by the unreliability of the kb in that set than by the kb itself*. I would play storm summoning with all the kb stripped out in a heartbeat though.

 

* Edit: Of course that is from the point of view of soloing. I have found myself frustrated with teammates kb when playing melee like many other people.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Parabola

[AerialAssault]

We're starting these threads early this month huh.

 

My own thoughts are that too much of the game revolves around putting enemies into an inescapable kill-box and mowing them down without fear of retaliation. Yawn. I prefer a bit more chaos and excitement, which might be why I prefer levels 1-30, before all the big nukes come into play.

 

But if this were to happen I'd rather it just be an auto-power granted to all characters. Saves me traipsing back to that damned bird everytime someone blows their gasket because I pushed a single enemy 5 feet.

 

If it wasn't obvious, I love knockback and if I had it my way I'd have the April Fools Brawl power which catapulted victims across the map be an option all year round, but I doubt that would go down well with the community...

 

 

[SeraphimKensai]

Personally I don't care one way or the other, but if they do make the null the gull option to convert kb to kd, let's turn the procs to cause knock up instead of knock down. Then we can make clown costumes and juggle for people.

[BrandX]

Not for this.  Don't like the knockback, don't use the set.

 

I don't like how Kinetic Melee isn't the top tier #1 damage set.  Can we have Null the Gull make it so? 🙂

[The_Warpact]

Good grief, would everyone just like the enemies to all run up to you to make it easier?

I don't like the following, can Null the Gull wipe my ass too?

 

Dimensional Shift and powers like it, why should I have to put up with this. Null it!

 

Aggro, I don't like it on my ranged toons, can't I just shut aggro off??? Null it!

 

Fold Space/TP foe/Wormhole if I'm teaming and someone uses it I have to chase the enemies to a new location. Null it!

 

FF, Sonic resonance, repel, etc just Null all of them for the obvious KB.

 

 Super Strength Rage, there's a crash its not a T9. Why is there a crash?? Can I just get Null to disable it?

 

Heals/Buffs from teammates who said they could do this!? Null it!

 

Then how does this affect teaming? Say a person (like me) uses it to herd baddies in nice little piles, teammate 1 doesn't like it and demands I Null it, I tell him to get bent, lrn2ply, and then hilarity ensues. The same can be said of everything else I listed.

How much easier does everyone want everything? The devs already gave everyone the option with a proc to change it. Little by little keep chipping away. 

There's already enough give on ALOT  of things.

 

You know what fvck it, you want to do it that's fine. Disable everything. Null it all. Make it so easy to play thats it boring.

 

[Luminara]

1. How would one go about having one or two powers remain high KB when a character-wide setting neuters all KB?  Some people really like having those one or two powers with ridiculously high KB values, to decisively put some distance between them and melee threats (or just for fun, because turning critters into astronauts is fun), but even with maximal slotting for KB, they'd never deal KB with a global setting turning all KB powers to KD.  Those "GET OFFA ME NAO, TURDBURGER!" powers would be gutted for their purposes.
2. If this is done for KB, doesn't it also have to be done for Repel and KU?  So we'd be turning powers like Telekinesis, Tornado and Hurricane into perfect KD patches?  Sounds very power creepy.
3. I have 5 (five!) KB->KD enhancements on my Peacebringer.  All of those powers have sufficient Accuracy, Damage, Recharge Reduction and Endurance Reduction, they don't need any more of those attributes, and they don't offer any other compelling use of the extra slot.  Three of those powers are six-slotted, the remaining two are five-slotted, and they're all giving significant global bonuses.  None of those powers would be "improved" by changing the KB->KD enhancement to something else, so the only value would come from moving them to one or more other powers.  That would also constitute significant power creep.
4. Would this result in teams either congregating around Null constantly to ensure that everyone has their KB flag set, or ostracization of players who didn't visit Null (perhaps they forgot, perhaps they didn't know, perhaps they chose not to use it)?  If so, then it would be creating problems (plural).
5. A solution that introduces more problems than it resolves is bad solution.  This is not the first time this has been proposed, but to date, there have been no attempts to address those additional problems.  Until and unless those additional problems are addressed, it's a bad solution.

[kelika2]

45 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Good grief, would everyone just like the enemies to all run up to you to make it easier?

 

Make it so easy to play thats it boring.

you only get fun from griefing other players?

[The_Warpact]

6 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

you only get fun from griefing other players?

Explain 

[kelika2]

2 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Explain 

Your first point was being angry at the ability to make people chase mobs from the knockback you created.  One or two mobs in a random group being chased down isnt so bad, but in task/strike forces and flashbacks you are stuck with some people sometimes for extended periods of time is what eats at peoples sanity

 

The middle part of your post was just getting angry at Null for stuff he cant do (yet) while avoiding all the things he can do that other players hate, such as team tp/fly/etc that @Bill Z Bubba addressed

 

And the end of your post was just.. like an angry acceptance that knockback is a pain in the ass to a great many people.

[The_Warpact]

4 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Your first point was being angry at the ability to make people chase mobs from the knockback you created.  One or two mobs in a random group being chased down isnt so bad, but in task/strike forces and flashbacks you are stuck with some people sometimes for extended periods of time is what eats at peoples sanity

 

The middle part of your post was just getting angry at Null for stuff he cant do (yet) while avoiding all the things he can do that other players hate, such as team tp/fly/etc that @Bill Z Bubba addressed

 

And the end of your post was just.. like an angry acceptance that knockback is a pain in the ass to a great many people.

So how is that griefing? Its a mechanic of the game, sort of like people going into a pvp zone and them saying they were griefed?

Or like my post, you think its all anger, because, thats how you interpret it. The same could be said of someone firing off Dimensional shift during a zone event or using a kb power to herd. So we should Null it?

 

But, in truth.

Its sarcasm mixed with anger that people continue to want to make things easier. My post was a "if we are going to do it to this, then why not to all the others".

 

The conclusion. 

The pain in this ass are people, this continual bitchfest about not liking stuff because it doesn't cater to them or its an inconvenience.

Holy sh!t folks welcome its a game.

[kelika2]

Just now, The_Warpact said:

So how is that griefing? Its a mechanic of the game, sort of like people going into a pvp zone and them saying they were griefed?

There is also a chatbox and an email system that I can use to create spam, which is a form of grief.  Just because you can, does not mean you should.

 

1 minute ago, The_Warpact said:

Or like my post, you think its all anger, because, thats how you interpret it.

Theres no way anger was not used when you rant like that.  I have never once seen someone use the Slippery Slope fallacy while calm or attempting satire.

 

4 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

its a game.

there it is.

every in game sociopath from everquest to elden ring has used this saying or a variant of it to justify being an ass.

from monks dropping a train on a group because they want a camp

to level 60s camping newbie zonelines on pvp servers

to injected pokemon

and gary from elementary school spamming e-hondas thousand handslap attack in a corner in SF2 turbo

"Its just a game, bro!"

 

Alright welp we had this conversation a few times before in the past 3* years, now the thing to do is just take bets on which GM will close the thread.

My inf is on Impervium

[The_Warpact]

23 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

There is also a chatbox and an email system that I can use to create spam, which is a form of grief.  Just because you can, does not mean you should.

 

Theres no way anger was not used when you rant like that.  I have never once seen someone use the Slippery Slope fallacy while calm or attempting satire.

 

there it is.

every in game sociopath from everquest to elden ring has used this saying or a variant of it to justify being an ass.

from monks dropping a train on a group because they want a camp

to level 60s camping newbie zonelines on pvp servers

to injected pokemon

and gary from elementary school spamming e-hondas thousand handslap attack in a corner in SF2 turbo

"Its just a game, bro!"

 

Alright welp we had this conversation a few times before in the past 3* years, now the thing to do is just take bets on which GM will close the thread.

My inf is on Impervium

Actually, thanks to you it got derailed. My post was on point on why its a bad idea, ie; power creep, imbalance, taking away a mechanic of a useful power. It doesn't matter the presentation just the reasoning. 

 

I had you on block for a reason, now I remember why, goodbye. 

 

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

[kelika2]

2 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

My post was on point on why its a bad idea, ie; power creep, imbalance, taking away a mechanic of a useful power.

There was nothing that conveyed that in the post at all.

Even then, a power creep and the theoretical option to remove an annoying mechanic temporarily are two different things

[Icono04]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

You want to turn a "tax" into a free slot, then you owe something back. 

Exactly this. If having KB in a power is a Bad Thing, then having Null remove the KB without adding something else there instead should be considered a positive upgrade in itself.

Asking for Null to remove the KB and add KD in its stead is actually asking for not one but two upgrades to the KB powers. 

[A Cat]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

Considering most view such a change as a "buff" and also how it has broken some powers, I'd counter this suggestion with a more balanced option.

 

Don't turn KB into KD, just turn KB *Off*. You want to turn a "tax" into a free slot, then you owe something back. 

This seems a pretty good idea. Powers like bonfire are probably better than intended due to kb->kd. This way you avoid giving them an additional slot on top of that. 

[kelika2]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

Considering most view such a change as a "buff" and also how it has broken some powers, I'd counter this suggestion with a more balanced option.

 

Don't turn KB into KD, just turn KB *Off*. You want to turn a "tax" into a free slot, then you owe something back. 

What did kinetics give back when other folks opted in to removing the +movement/+jump from speed boost/inertia?

What did players give back when they can change their alignment instantly?

What did flying beastmasters and teleporting necromancers etc

[golstat2003]

5 hours ago, Naraka said:

Considering most view such a change as a "buff" and also how it has broken some powers, I'd counter this suggestion with a more balanced option.

 

Don't turn KB into KD, just turn KB *Off*. You want to turn a "tax" into a free slot, then you owe something back. 

 

Actually I would be down with this variation of the suggestion. Just turn ALL KB off.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

1. How would one go about having one or two powers remain high KB when a character-wide setting neuters all KB?  Some people really like having those one or two powers with ridiculously high KB values, to decisively put some distance between them and melee threats (or just for fun, because turning critters into astronauts is fun), but even with maximal slotting for KB, they'd never deal KB with a global setting turning all KB powers to KD.  Those "GET OFFA ME NAO, TURDBURGER!" powers would be gutted for their purposes.
2. If this is done for KB, doesn't it also have to be done for Repel and KU?  So we'd be turning powers like Telekinesis, Tornado and Hurricane into perfect KD patches?  Sounds very power creepy.
3. I have 5 (five!) KB->KD enhancements on my Peacebringer.  All of those powers have sufficient Accuracy, Damage, Recharge Reduction and Endurance Reduction, they don't need any more of those attributes, and they don't offer any other compelling use of the extra slot.  Three of those powers are six-slotted, the remaining two are five-slotted, and they're all giving significant global bonuses.  None of those powers would be "improved" by changing the KB->KD enhancement to something else, so the only value would come from moving them to one or more other powers.  That would also constitute significant power creep.
4. Would this result in teams either congregating around Null constantly to ensure that everyone has their KB flag set, or ostracization of players who didn't visit Null (perhaps they forgot, perhaps they didn't know, perhaps they chose not to use it)?  If so, then it would be creating problems (plural).
5. A solution that introduces more problems than it resolves is bad solution.  This is not the first time this has been proposed, but to date, there have been no attempts to address those additional problems.  Until and unless those additional problems are addressed, it's a bad solution.

 

This is the best response to this suggestion I've seen in ages.