Null The Gull -> Knockback to Knockdown

[MTeague]

9 minutes ago, flyinggecko2 said:

And the OPTION to turn it off would make absolutely no difference to you while simultaneously  improving my actually ENJOYING the powerset.

 

Tell you what.

I'll support having the OPTION to turn off KB added exactly as requested, if everyone on this thread will sign in blood that if an energy blast player there teamed with says "nah, I don't want to use that option", you'll just say "okay, that's cool."

[flyinggecko2]

15 minutes ago, Crasical said:

 

I know some people feel that way, but until we get a consensus on 'Knockback in any form is Griefing', I don't feel like anyone has any right to go around telling other people how to play or build their characters.

Going to Null and say 'hey don't let people use Mystic Fortune on me' does not inhibit their ability to use and enjoy Mystic Fortune. Putting a -KB option in Null is so you can tell *other people* to go change their settings. There's a difference.

 

Oh I agree. You're welcome to slot all the knockback you want. You can play a Mastermind with all pool powers and no pets. I mean you can do whatever the heck you want I'm all for that.

 

Speaking of doing whatever you want, I would love to play an AR/DEV blaster.... but theres a lot of people in this thread that are trying to tell me how I need to play (pick a different powerset) or buildmy Character. (With enhancement tax most of my attacks)

For some reason they are adamantly against giving me the option to play how I want.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, MTeague said:

 

Tell you what.

I'll support having the OPTION to turn off KB added exactly as requested, if everyone on this thread will sign in blood that if an energy blast player there teamed with says "nah, I don't want to use that option", you'll just say "okay, that's cool."

Not gonna happen though....

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, flyinggecko2 said:

Oh I agree. You're welcome to slot all the knockback you want. You can play a Mastermind with all pool powers and no pets. I mean you can do whatever the heck you want I'm all for that.

 

Speaking of doing whatever you want, I would love to play an AR/DEV blaster.... but theres a lot of people in this thread that are trying to tell me how I need to play (pick a different powerset) or buildmy Character. (With enhancement tax most of my attacks)

For some reason they are adamantly against giving me the option to play how I want.

The main concern for me is Null the Gull. You want a new IO set that gives a global KB to KD? I'm all for it. Let's just stop running to Null for everything though, please.

[Crasical]

3 minutes ago, flyinggecko2 said:

For some reason they are adamantly against giving me the option to play how I want.

 

People say 'Don't, it's bad' when they talk about mayo on french fries too, and I love them that way.

They're entitled to their opinion, you're fully free to just... roll that character. You don't gotta go on the forums and ask permission first.

[flyinggecko2]

7 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Perspective is an interesting thing. Staring at a tree from 1 inch away tends to obscure one's vision, save the tree.

 

The perspective that knock back is so hugely, engrossingly terrible is quite... Interesting.

 

So, apparently, knocking something back away from you or another is so catastrophically terrible because....

 

Pressing W is bad?

 

Zergspeed is reduced by 10%? Ack?

 

AoE efficacy is not properly saturated and maximized to the 42nd prime meridian? The humanity?

 

Foes that are ragdolled and unable to drub you about the ears is nonobad?

 

Hmm. Really, knock back is so bad it's like someone flushing documents down a toilet? Or kicking bunnies?

 

Interesting. Perspective, neh?

Because the group of friends I play with has 1 brute as our tank and he's not the greatest. Most of them are not running min/maxed builds and things that get knocked out of the brutes AoE often results in my friends dying. 

 

I would like to play my AR/DEV blaster but he just keeps killing my friends. I would also prefer not to be taxed on almost all of my attacks. That's my perspective.

[MTeague]

1 minute ago, Crasical said:

People say 'Don't, it's bad' when they talk about mayo on french fries too, and I love them that way.

 

*throws down the gauntlet*

 

[Naraka]

33 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That comment is a bit too much. I agree that the team as described is showing an amazing inability to cope with a situation, especially if the brute (or tank) can't just taunt the mobs right back. Belittling others to make a point is uncalled for though.

Well, it was mostly a joke response because I know you just quickly made up an easy scenario that might have KB being the culprit for disaster. But at the same time, I find it funny that you're basically pointing to the trinity for why KB is bad. Lol who here cares about the trinity? I guess we will shit in the trinity's mouth until it's convenient to get KB tarred and feathered.

 

All this is in jest, btw. I'll as soon don my devil's advocate hat before I actually get very emotionally involved in a debate like this one.

[MTeague]

4 minutes ago, flyinggecko2 said:

Because the group of friends I play with has 1 brute as our tank and he's not the greatest. Most of them are not running min/maxed builds and things that get knocked out of the brutes AoE often results in my friends dying. 

 

I would like to play my AR/DEV blaster but he just keeps killing my friends. I would also prefer not to be taxed on almost all of my attacks. That's my perspective.

 

Fair enough. This I can get behind. You're not looking to say how anyone else should config their character, just how you want your own powers on your own character to act. I'm okay with that, until and unless it morphs into any desire to instill expectations on other players.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, flyinggecko2 said:

I agree with the lose knockback, but I would like to point out that dual pistols can slot enhancements for abilities that it's attacks don't actually grant.

 

While I'm not really against your suggestion, I just think it makes it much harder to implement. If I have knockback enhancements slotted, then switch off knockback, what would happen to those enhancements? I don't think there is a precedence for that, and would likely be difficult to implement.

 

The difference is, Dual Pistols gimmick is switching between ammos that grant different secondary effects.  So, slot the slow sets, because the attack can slow, if the right ammo is in place.  Which they still need to fix Pistol's which can do it but can't slot for it.

 

That is not the case with a Null the Gull.  Null the Gull isn't part of the set.

 

I don't recall Null the Gull turning off Team TP (isn't that just an option that says "Decide or Automatic"  and only has the "Disable Group Fly" which, can stop a few sets from working, as they require one to be on the ground.  Though, I would've personally lived without Null doing that.

 

As for what happens with those enhancements, they can just grey out and not give any bonuses.

[kelika2]

29 minutes ago, MTeague said:

 

Use of knockback is not, in fact, griefing other players. It's using powers that the devs specifically put into the game for players to use against enemies becusae it's FUN

They also put in team teleport, group fly, adding runspeeds to speed boost and so on.  But look what Null can do now

 

Fun does not always have to come at someone else, or a groups expense.

 

30 minutes ago, MTeague said:

and sometimes very tactically advantageous. (mobs standing back up are not mobs that are shooting at you)

KnockDOWN does the same thing, but without the grief.  My energy/energy blaster is highly playable because I can knock stuff DOWN and not chase after my own mobs to punch them

 

I wanna make it super fucking clear that I love KnockDOWN.  From Ice Slick to my khelds nova burst.

[BrandX]

53 minutes ago, flyinggecko2 said:

 

So instead, we have "go respec your character and slot different (sub-par) enhancements that will significantly weakened your character because your choices are getting me and my friends killed. "

 

Which is WAY more intrusive than Null The Gull would be.

 

I think it's sad you're getting killed because of knockback.  I can see, "Man, I'm just annoyed that I actually have to move in a direction because of the knockback" than killed because of it.

 

A good compromise for this however, is a new Energy Blast set.  Same exact set, no Knock.  Can't slot Knock IO sets (they're sub par anyways, right?  That's why people say they don't want to slot those sets).  Get the pure blasting set.

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Well, it was mostly a joke response because I know you just quickly made up an easy scenario that might have KB being the culprit for disaster. But at the same time, I find it funny that you're basically pointing to the trinity for why KB is bad. Lol who here cares about the trinity? I guess we will shit in the trinity's mouth until it's convenient to get KB tarred and feathered.

 

All this is in jest, btw. I'll as soon don my devil's advocate hat before I actually get very emotionally involved in a debate like this one.

Apologies then.

 

(Edit: Also, what scenario did I come up with?)

Edited March 4, 2022 by Rudra

[kelika2]

3 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

See, there is a problem....its like...a function of the power.  It's not griefing when blowing things up, that's someone having fun with no intent to cause harm.

 

Griefing, is intentionally FD dropping a train in LG on someone to get the Frenzy for the FBSS (bonus points if you know what I am talking about.  Monks are using a mechanic and abusing it to their amusement.

 

Power blast and knockback, is just a function with no intent to grief.  It's an annoyance you don't like because it causes havoc where as FD is used to create havoc.

I had a team teleporting mastermind about a year ago.  zombies are slow, they have this animation they HAVE to animate if they fall a few inches and root themselves during it and I thought I was also being a no intent to grief by binding team teleport to powexecname location.  You can have honest intentions all you want, or claim innocence but cmon, we both know at some point you seen a Storm Summoner jump into the middle of a mob and say "TOHIT DEBUFF"

 

Just because you can, does not mean you should.

[flyinggecko2]

24 minutes ago, MTeague said:

 

Tell you what.

I'll support having the OPTION to turn off KB added exactly as requested, if everyone on this thread will sign in blood that if an energy blast player there teamed with says "nah, I don't want to use that option", you'll just say "okay, that's cool."

So, you think that its actually a better idea to not give players the option? 

You think that forcing people to chose drastically reducing the survivability of certain power sets via the enhancement tax or having them (at best) annoying the hell out of the tank or (at worst) being kicked from the team, is better than giving them an option?

 

Nobody is saying take away knockback. Knockback is great for a team in the right hands. Knockback is fun for lots of people. Knockback also really sucks in some scenarios.

 

I just want to play an AR/DEV blaster because I think it's cool with:

A) not dying all the time.

B) not getting my friends killed all the time.

C) be an effective damage dealer.

[Naraka]

38 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Perspective is an interesting thing. Staring at a tree from 1 inch away tends to obscure one's vision, save the tree.

 

The perspective that knock back is so hugely, engrossingly terrible is quite... Interesting.

 

So, apparently, knocking something back away from you or another is so catastrophically terrible because....

 

Pressing W is bad?

 

Zergspeed is reduced by 10%? Ack?

 

AoE efficacy is not properly saturated and maximized to the 42nd prime meridian? The humanity?

 

Foes that are ragdolled and unable to drub you about the ears is nonobad?

 

Hmm. Really, knock back is so bad it's like someone flushing documents down a toilet? Or kicking bunnies?

 

Interesting. Perspective, neh?

 

I think one possibly legitimate indefensible argument against KB is knocking foes into map geometry, making them difficult to hit or untargetable. 

[flyinggecko2]

19 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

The difference is, Dual Pistols gimmick is switching between ammos that grant different secondary effects.  So, slot the slow sets, because the attack can slow, if the right ammo is in place.  Which they still need to fix Pistol's which can do it but can't slot for it.

 

That is not the case with a Null the Gull.  Null the Gull isn't part of the set.

 

I don't recall Null the Gull turning off Team TP (isn't that just an option that says "Decide or Automatic"  and only has the "Disable Group Fly" which, can stop a few sets from working, as they require one to be on the ground.  Though, I would've personally lived without Null doing that.

 

As for what happens with those enhancements, they can just grey out and not give any bonuses.

Right, I'm not against your suggestion. That's fine by me, I just assume it makes it much more difficult for a programmer to implement since nothing else in the game works like that. But I'm not a programmer and don't really know.

 

Just to be pedantic, you don't need to take 'swap ammo'. You can still slot slow in your attacks as DP.

[Naraka]

Hmm, I just had another idea.

 

Why not make a new difficulty setting where enemies just have KB protection? Or is that already a thing?

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, flyinggecko2 said:

Right, I'm not against your suggestion. That's fine by me, I just assume it makes it much more difficult for a programmer to implement since nothing else in the game works like that. But I'm not a programmer and don't really know.

 

Just to be pedantic, you don't need to take 'swap ammo'. You can still slot slow in your attacks as DP.

Swap Ammo doesn't take enhancements. So the effects need to be slotted for in the (potentially) affected powers.

[TheZag]

49 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

And it can work the other way, too. The HC staff added 'pull' to Singularity; I regularly see mobs in MSRs getting pulled into the air in the middle of the bowl,and less often during other content. There are a number of powers that require the target to be on the ground. The moment a Singularity yanks a mob off the ground, Seismic Blast loses a power against it. Is this annoying? Yes; in the roil of power effects, it may not be noticeable that a mob is airborne. It can be caused incidentally by other powers, too -- a mob standing on the object produced by Propel is not "on the ground" for targeting purposes. Some holds lift the target off the ground.

 

In a group that works together across an extended period of time, it's reasonable to expect the members to tailor their actions to work together to best effect. For the vast majority of grouping in CoH, a teammate could be 'Fred from the planet Fred' for all you know about them, and expecting them to tailor their abilities to your prejudices about how you want fights to go is setting yourself up as the arbiter of the One True Way to Play...

 

I made a suggestion awhile ago for arc of destruction to be usable while near the ground and flying but it didnt go anywhere.  I probably should have researched all the powers that worked that way.  Overall the whole player/target needs to be on the ground probably should get looked at but im not incharge of such decisions.  In the end it should probably be changes to the specific powers and not an addition to null.

[SwitchFade]

41 minutes ago, flyinggecko2 said:

Because the group of friends I play with has 1 brute as our tank and he's not the greatest. Most of them are not running min/maxed builds and things that get knocked out of the brutes AoE often results in my friends dying. 

 

I would like to play my AR/DEV blaster but he just keeps killing my friends. I would also prefer not to be taxed on almost all of my attacks. That's my perspective.

Just so we know, the driving reason is because on a normal team of SO using causal players, knock back causes defeat?

 

I'm sorry, this seems highly implausible. If a team of people is getting defeated because SOME foes (because no KB is auto 100%) are not firmly in the AoE taunt radius of a brute, this is not primarily due to knock back. In such a scenario, knock back is merely unmasking the true cause, in that the difficulty is beyond all but one type of tactical play for that team. Now, should this be the preferred and only way said team will play, that's all well and good; however, the reality is, if a brute retaining aggro on all foes is the fulcrum of survivability, this clearly demonstrates that KB is not the issue.

 

Suppose a controller spammed AOE immob before all foes we're in brute AoE radius?

 

Suppose a controller or Dom had singy?

 

Suppose someone used fold space or wormhole?

 

Suppose a stalker could generate more threat than the brute?

 

Suppose someone used burn or fear and foes scatter?

 

There are so many scenarios that it's difficult to imagine them all. Really, if the difference between success and defeat is knock back .. larger issues are at play and the diff is likely too high.

[SwitchFade]

23 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

I think one possibly legitimate indefensible argument against KB is knocking foes into map geometry, making them difficult to hit or untargetable. 

Absolutely accurate.

[Rudra]

Mmmm... yes and no... yes because of the clarifying part "making them difficult to hit or untargetable". No because on my energy blaster I am specifically trying to get mobs stuck in the geometry. It makes fighting things like EBs so much easier when they are thrashing/spinning in a grate, a barrel, a wall, or whatever. When I knock them through it? Yeah, I curse myself for being an idiot, clear the rest, then exit map to let mob pop free if a defeat all or stuck target is the required defeat.

 

(Edit: I really should grab teleport other for my energy blaster....)

Edited March 4, 2022 by Rudra

[flyinggecko2]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

 

Tell you what.

I'll support having the OPTION to turn off KB added exactly as requested, if everyone on this thread will sign in blood that if an energy blast player there teamed with says "nah, I don't want to use that option", you'll just say "okay, that's cool."

But we already have the option to turn off knockback whether you support it or not. 

 

As it currently stands, when you're on a team where all the knockback is a bad thing, all those energy blasters just need to switch to their 2nd build for their character, with drastically lower survivability, and pay the enhancement tax.

 

Because apparently having a toggle at Null the Gull would somehow be worse than that?

Edited March 4, 2022 by flyinggecko2
Grammar

[flyinggecko2]

29 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Swap Ammo doesn't take enhancements. So the effects need to be slotted for in the (potentially) affected powers.

Yes, thats what I said.

You don't even need to take swap ammo. You can still put the new chance for cold damage proc in your powers.