How and when to use Procs?

[aethereal]

So the deal with Gaussian's in Leadership is that yes, it does have a chance to proc for each target, and Leadership has an enormous radius and 255 max targets.  So you can theoretically get up to 50% uptime in Gaussian's that way.  But the large area also works against the proc rate of the power, and the low PPM of Gaussian's means that each target has a 6.5% chance to proc (once every 10 seconds).

 

That means that your total chance to proc every 10 seconds is:

 

If there's just you:  6.5%

If there are you and six pets (eg you're a Mastermind):  37.5%

If you're on an 8 person team (with no pets):  41.6%

If you're on an 8 person team and you or one party has 6 pets:  61.0%

If you're on a 50 person league (with no pets, and everyone's within 60' of you):  96.5%

 

Divide all those numbers in half to get the uptime (since it checks for proccing every 10 seconds, and Gaussian's lasts for 5 seconds).

 

Now, I mean, 18% uptime with Gaussian's is nothing to sneeze at.  But it's also a random 18% of the time, not necessarily "when you need it most."

[Clave Dark 5]

13 hours ago, tidge said:

Mileage varies of course. But if a Robotics MM wants to lean into %procs...

 

My Robots MM has the AoE Photon Grenade slotted for -Res (5 pieces of Annihilation for the global Endurance Discount and +MaxEnd) and Knockdown (Overwhelming Force). This is an example of the set bonuses being enough to make me not care so much about %procs, but that power is a particularly good one (better than Pulse Rifle Blast IMO) for %damage (and other effects) for offense. IIRC with no slotted recharge in Photon Grenade, the -Res piece will have a ~40% chance to proc, the 3.5 PPM %damage will have something like 50% chance to proc, and (Absolute Amazement) %-ToHit should be above 60% chance to proc... and these are for each target in the AoE!

 

Either choice (all %procs in Photon Grenade or minimal %procs in it) feels like a better choice for trying for a MM to inflict damage than Pulse Rifle + Tactics (w/ Build Up). One other advantage I see to Photon Grenade over a ST attack from the rifle is that you should draw more aggro to the MM than from just using ST attacks.

Hm, that -Resist does sound nice.  BTW, I have Pulse Rifle BURST, not BLAST, better damage right there.  Looking at the numbers, they animate all about the same time, so there's that too.  I don't slot purples because I don't speed level, hate the extreme expense, sometimes sidekick down, and often drop a toon once they're about half way through their Incarnate powers, so the AA proc is out.  Still, although I never seem to have trouble drawing agro ha ha, this is a good argument, I may have to do a respec to Grenade, thanks for the tips.

[Clave Dark 5]

8 hours ago, aethereal said:

So the deal with Gaussian's in Leadership is that yes, it does have a chance to proc for each target, and Leadership has an enormous radius and 255 max targets.  So you can theoretically get up to 50% uptime in Gaussian's that way.  But the large area also works against the proc rate of the power, and the low PPM of Gaussian's means that each target has a 6.5% chance to proc (once every 10 seconds).

 

That means that your total chance to proc every 10 seconds is:

 

If there's just you:  6.5%

If there are you and six pets (eg you're a Mastermind):  37.5%

If you're on an 8 person team (with no pets):  41.6%

If you're on an 8 person team and you or one party has 6 pets:  61.0%

If you're on a 50 person league (with no pets, and everyone's within 60' of you):  96.5%

 

Divide all those numbers in half to get the uptime (since it checks for proccing every 10 seconds, and Gaussian's lasts for 5 seconds).

 

Now, I mean, 18% uptime with Gaussian's is nothing to sneeze at.  But it's also a random 18% of the time, not necessarily "when you need it most."

I don't believe in trusting it to proc "when I need it" because the RNG always hates you when you trust it.  😃  Also?  One less thing to click in the middle of even beginning of a fight, I can just forget about it and let it run in the background there.  Anyway, here's the thread and post where I found this info if you want to look at it: 

Regardless of all of that, I'm not one to squeeze every last DMG point out my build until it hollers, but others do, I know.

[Spectre7878]

Hello

 

Ok. So I thought I understood procs and where to place them. After reading this thread. I think I may not know what I am doing with them. For example, I have a controller. She is a electric/storm. I love her build and powers, but as far as procs go. I think I messed up. 
 

i have read that toggles and rain type powers are pointless to proc, but then I read to put Achilles chance for -res. I put force feedback chance for recharge is gale, but being a fast recharge power. I don’t think it’s going off. In jolt I put a chance to hold, and chance for recharge. Again being a fast power I don’t think it’s working. 

 

So what powers are pointless to proc. Am I missing something?
 

 

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

31 minutes ago, Spectre7878 said:

Hello

 

Ok. So I thought I understood procs and where to place them. After reading this thread. I think I may not know what I am doing with them. For example, I have a controller. She is a electric/storm. I love her build and powers, but as far as procs go. I think I messed up. 
 

i have read that toggles and rain type powers are pointless to proc, but then I read to put Achilles chance for -res. I put force feedback chance for recharge is gale, but being a fast recharge power. I don’t think it’s going off. In jolt I put a chance to hold, and chance for recharge. Again being a fast power I don’t think it’s working. 

 

So what powers are pointless to proc. Am I missing something?

There are a couple of general rules to follow with procs. Auto powers are the best placement for certain procs like Panacea or Numina. Some procs are global, and will activate when their conditions are met, think Spirit Ward slots Chance for +Absorb - it's always active, but certain conditions need mer for the effect itself to activate. Then there are damage procs and chance for effects like -res and -def, etc. These have certain proc per minute (PPM) numbers between 1 and 4.5. The higher the PPM, the higher the chance for the proc to go off in certain powers, which follow a formula based on Auto/Click/Toggle and single target, AoE and Cone targeting. 

 

When in doubt though, you can use one of the many handy PPM calculators that members of the community have made. I'm sure there is a link someone can share, but I use one that's in a spreadsheet. Let me see if I can find the link...

[aethereal]

The entire point of the PPM system is that you're not supposed to have to worry that much about what the proc rate is for a power.  It's higher on longer-recharge powers and lower on  shorter-recharge powers and it ends up being the same.

 

Some people get extremely neurotic about having high proc chance in their powers, and thus avoid it in short-recharge-time powers, but that doesn't (with some exceptions that I'll get to below) actually matter.  It evens out.

 

The exceptions:

 

1.  If you have your power sit around off cooldown but unclicked for a long time, that means you get fewer procs per minute with it.  Basically, the PPM system assumes that you click your power on cooldown.  If you have a power that "wastes" cooldown by recharging much quicker than you actually want to use it, it would ceteris paribus be better to replace it with another power that does similar things but only recharges just in time for you to use it.

 

2.  If a long-recharge power uses a pseudopet to accomplish its effects, you get a bad PPM rate despite your long recharge, which sucks.  That's the origin of "don't put it in rain powers."

 

3.  If the proc isn't just a scalar increase in something, but has a dramatic effect that you want to plan around, then obviously you can plan better if your proc rate is more reliable.  But seriously think hard about does it actually matter if it goes off On This Activation, or does it just matter how often it goes off at all?

4.  There are various complications that are one-off affairs unique to certain procs or certain power that you somehow just have to memorize all of.  (PPM is a kinda terrible system).  That said, the staff have quashed some of these unique things.

[Sir Myshkin]

4 hours ago, Spectre7878 said:

So what powers are pointless to proc. Am I missing something?

 

See my signature or search for "Proc Monster" and you'll find the relevant information that will help guide you along the path to enlightenment.

[carroto]

One of the ways I like to look at the utility of slotting a damage proc in a power is to compare slotting a proc versus using that slot for direct damage enhancement.  You can see on the below chart that for Corruptor Energy Blast the three main blasts end up very similar in this regard due to the PPM system, varying only due to their animation times.  This also shows that once I've slotted the power to the ED limit, procs can allow me to surpass it by a respectable amount.  If I slot minimal or no recharge in one of those powers and put two procs in it, that's like adding another +100% (on average) damage enhancement.