PvP Broken? Let us count the ways..

[Glacier Peak]

Indom native since HC launch here! I don't mind the low population most of the times I play. If I want to PvP I can always log in a second account

 😆

[macskull]

9 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Everyone left that server when it was announced that it was the PvP server. Even the PvPers left. Most of the Homecoming PvP happens on Excelsior these days.

This is categorically false. Unless the server somehow managed to collect a large population and then have a mass exodus in the space of three days, anyways. Indomitable and Everlasting were launched on April 28, 2019. Indomitable was designated the unofficial PvP server on May 1, 2019. Besides, double XP didn't get turned off on Indomitable for another week after the announcement.

 

It is true that most zone PvP happens on Excelsior these days, but that's by virtue of being the highest-population server. In the first 18-24 months Homecoming was around there was a pretty big overlap between the people who PvP'd in the arena and in zone, but once the novelty of the game being back wore off lots of the arena PvPers moved on and there was a slow zone PvPer exodus to Excelsior over summer/fall 2021. The problem with zone PvP is that it isn't reliable and is rarely if ever balanced, but that isn't usually a concern for those who enjoy it. Most organized PvP still happens on Indomitable.

Edited April 2, 2022 by macskull

[The_Warpact]

Now I just want to make a stalker and pounce on unsuspecting badgers lol.

[PeregrineFalcon]

19 hours ago, macskull said:

This is categorically false. Unless the server somehow managed to collect a large population and then have a mass exodus in the space of three days, anyways.

Yeah, ok. I didn't say that it happened in three days, but it has happened. Nice attempt to strawman my argument.

 

Oh look! Here's a thread:  Indomitable Needs Your Help - "What I am asking, is that some of you put a character or two back on Indom to prop up the numbers..."

 

Yeah, people are starting threads like that because the server population is soooooooo tremendously high. I guess you're right. I guess that I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

19 hours ago, macskull said:

It is true that most zone PvP happens on Excelsior these days, but that's by virtue of being the highest-population server.

Oh, except that here's where you admit that I actually do know what I'm talking about. I like that you changed your mind and admitted that I'm right in the very same post. How very Snopes of you.

 

Look, I realize that you're the CoH PvP Guru, and I'm not saying that sarcastically, but do you really have to disagree with everything anyone says that appears to be against PvP even when you admit that it's true?

[macskull]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Yeah, ok. I didn't say that it happened in three days, but it has happened.

What you said:

On 4/1/2022 at 11:05 AM, PeregrineFalcon said:

Everyone left that server when it was announced that it was the PvP server

I was addressing that statement at its face value when I clearly should have been looking for a deeper, more insightful meaning. How silly of me.

 

Regarding the rest of your post... not really. The number of active zone PvPers is smaller than the number of arena PvPers. PvP happening in zones tends to be in RV and mainly occurs for a little while every so often. You can't just jump into the zone and find people most of the time, even on Excelsior. Indomitable's low population has more to do with the game's playerbase as a whole shrinking than it does its designation as any particular this-or-that server. The best anyone can do given the lack of any publicly-available historical data about server populations is make educated guesses, but "un-designating" Indomitable as the "unofficial PvP server" isn't going to magically bring its population up. This is a pretty socially-oriented MMO and players will gravitate toward the servers with the highest population. Eventually all that'll be left on Indomitable and Torchbearer are the people who want to play on low-population servers.

 

EDIT: And Reunion, I suppose, but that's kind of a weird case. You can see on Discord's live graphs that Reunion's peak player numbers happen several hours before the rest of the servers, which makes sense considering it's the EU server.

Edited April 3, 2022 by macskull

[DarionLeonidas]

On 4/1/2022 at 1:34 PM, Marbing said:

Yep, as I said: Not worth the price of admission and most suggestions for change are shot down and ultimately get swept into the "I know its broken but just leave it be." crowd. 
 

I wish it were. I wish there were some reason to PvP, just for the sake of moving the game forward.

I still think it should always be optional. But if PvP mattered enough, it would be worth it no matter how "imbalanced" people perceived it to be.

What's the greatest moment in any story of great conflicts? The great conflict. The colossal battle between dark and light, good and evil, heroes and villains.

Picture a monthly event in Recluse' Victory with a hundred, two hundred people on each side fighting for the future of Earth. Winning side gets a badge and a temp power and a+5% buff to everything for a week. Whatever. Keep the badges and buffs, I'd be there every month for just a free set of in-game steak knives. 

The chance to have our own battle like the ones in "Endgame" or "Ready Player One" or "Return of the King" or whatever would be just too wonderful.

In my 55+ years of gaming and 45+ years of game design, I have learned that the notion of "play balance" is a self-delusion people embrace to comfort themselves.

Here is the cold, hard truth:

There is no such thing as a balanced game, no such thing as a level playing field and no such thing as a fair fight.

The whole point of conflict in sports, or gaming, or life for that matter, is to exploit your advantages, compensate for your defects and find a way to gain an edge over the opponent who may be better at a given contest than you.

Nobody likes hearing that, but that's too bad.

Play Balance is a myth, and the more people insist on imposing what they think is "fair", the more "unfair" the game becomes to someone else... and the less interesting any game becomes.

[Marbing]

On 4/2/2022 at 9:03 PM, macskull said:

but "un-designating" Indomitable as the "unofficial PvP server" isn't going to magically bring its population up.

I just want to point out how many times I’ve had this conversation:

 

Me: Hey you should try City of Heroes, it’s really fun and free! <long explanation about how awesome CoH is and how it works>

 

Interested Person: Oh? Okay yeah sounds great, what server do you play on?

 

Me: Indomitable.

 

Interested Person: Okay.

 

*days pass*
 

Interested Person: So I was going to create a character but I found out Indomitable is the PvP server? I don’t like to PvP…

 

Me: No no no, that doesn’t mean the same thing that it means in other games.  You aren’t going to get ganked, it’s not open world PvP.

 

Interested Person: Okay then what DOES it mean?

 

Me: It just means that for the few zones that ARE PvP they tend to host PvP events on Indomitable. There is also this thing called Arena PvP and there are events for that as well. But, you can play all the content the same as any other server and never HAVE to PvP.

 

Interested Person: Oh, okay, well I guess that’s fine then.

 

 

I’ve had that conversation a few times. Now imagine if I wasn’t there to explain that. Imagine if some new player is interested in CoH and finds out Indomitable is the PvP server and assumes it’s like most other games with PvP so they avoid it. You can see how that would be a deterrent for new players not interested in PvP.

 

So the designation DOES have an effect. 

[battlewraith]

Most other games with pvp? Are these non-gamers who don't have a clue about the difference an MMO and something like COD?

Pretty much every other MMO I've played has had more or less the same types of pvp as COH: instanced matches against teams and open world areas where you enter the space and then are flagged for pvp. 

[M3z]

On 4/1/2022 at 2:05 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

I'm fairly certain that most of the PvE crowd will agree with me when I say: I don't care what you do to change PvP. Leave it as is, revert it to pre-I13 state, change the rules to something else entirely, whatever.

 

I just don't want the developers spending a lot of time on PvP changes for the 10 whole people who PvP as opposed to the 99% of us who don't.

 

Don't believe me? Read the thread about Idom, the PvP server, dying People are desperately trying to get people to play on that server. Everyone left that server when it was announced that it was the PvP server. Even the PvPers left. Most of the Homecoming PvP happens on Excelsior these days.

 

So yeah. Do whatever you want with PvP. Just please don't spend a ton of developer time for the 10 whole people who still PvP because that's time you could be spending coding things for the rest of us who don't.

 

Not that my opinion matters.

this community can be so miserable to be in sometimes

[macskull]

10 hours ago, Marbing said:

I just want to point out how many times I’ve had this conversation:

To counter your anecdotal evidence with more anecdotal evidence, most people I've seen on Facebook, Reddit, or the HC Discord asking which server to play on get told either Everlasting or Excelsior because that's where the people are. You might get a few players on Indomitable who otherwise wouldn't be there if it wasn't designed as "the PvP server," but not enough to significantly impact the server's population. What's happening on HC now is similar to what was happening the last year or two of the game's live run, where the vast majority of the population consolidated on Freedom and Virtue with a couple other servers competing for a distant third place.

[Marbing]

12 hours ago, macskull said:

To counter your anecdotal evidence with more anecdotal evidence, most people I've seen on Facebook, Reddit, or the HC Discord asking which server to play on get told either Everlasting or Excelsior because that's where the people are. You might get a few players on Indomitable who otherwise wouldn't be there if it wasn't designed as "the PvP server," but not enough to significantly impact the server's population. What's happening on HC now is similar to what was happening the last year or two of the game's live run, where the vast majority of the population consolidated on Freedom and Virtue with a couple other servers competing for a distant third place.

We could go back and forth forever with this. But ultimately the point was made. The PvP flag does have an impact. As you just admitted.

 

EDIT: Actually your own argument doesn’t account for how the number of people on Excelsior or Everlasting would be different had Indomitable never been labeled PvP in the first place. If we work under the assumption that the designation does have an effect and extrapolate that over two years worth of people avoiding said designation, then it is only exacerbated by the fact that those two servers now have a higher population. Meaning the designation caused the population difference which in turn made the population difference worse over time.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Marbing

[macskull]

17 hours ago, Marbing said:

Meaning the designation caused the population difference which in turn made the population difference worse over time.

Excelsior is far and away the highest-population server even though it has no particular designation while Torchbearer, which also lacks a particular designation - and was the first server - has a population only slightly higher than Indomitable (about 20 more people at the time of this post). Given your argument that Indomitable's low population can be traced solely back to its designation as "the PvP server," how do you explain Torchbearer's similar numbers?

Edited April 6, 2022 by macskull

[Marbing]

Easy:

 

1) You’re wrong, Torchbearer at its  peak has nearly double the population of Indomitable. Not “barely higher”.

 

Edit: Picture added.

 

2) I will quote you on this one:

That effort to split the load didn’t help Indomitable so much because well… PvP  server.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Marbing

[battlewraith]

5 hours ago, Marbing said:

Easy:

 

1) You’re wrong, Torchbearer at its  peak has nearly double the population of Indomitable. Not “barely higher”.

 

 

 

He was talking about the current population. You are pointing at the peak population--which actually undermines your point. It suggests that Torchbearer has lost more active players than Indomitable despite the latter having the unofficial pvp designation. 

[Marbing]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

He was talking about the current population. You are pointing at the peak population--which actually undermines your point. It suggests that Torchbearer has lost more active players than Indomitable despite the latter having the unofficial pvp designation. 

That graph absolutely does not show that torchbearer lost more than indom without a past reference to compare it against. Like the below screenshots taken in November 2020:

 

My reference point would suggest that: no torchbearer has not “lost more than indom” but I won’t go so far as to say it is proof because it’s just a couple days taken out from 2 years ago. But, it does show a frame of reference…

 

EDIT: I thought it went without saying but then again these forums never do, so: The graphs actually show that indom may have lost MORE than torchbearer over time.

 

In fact the screenshots I provided further enforce the idea that the migration to excel has gotten worse and could be a direct result of the actions the dev team took way back when to encourage people on to other servers. They also further suggest that Indom has been suffering for population for quite some time and it has only gotten worse.

 

And to your fist point. It doesn’t matter at what point in time he meant, the point is more people play on torchbearer than do on indom at any given time and during peak times they have nearly double the population of indom which means on any given day a significant amount more people play on torchbearer than do indom. 
 

 

Like I said earlier we can go back and forth on this forever. So how about we just agree to disagree as to the root cause?

Edited April 6, 2022 by Marbing

[The_Warpact]

I seriously doubt pvp drove everyone away, more along the lines of a declining population on a number of factors.

New games, weather, aging playerbase, old game, people back to work, etc.

I pvp but I'm not on Indom, I'm on Everlasting and I don't RP. So if the conclusion is right I should flee Everlasting for the "pvp server".

 

Hell across all the servers I'm seeing lower populations, I'm watching it unfold before my very eyes that Veracor had to ask multiple times to fill up events going on.

Before it would have a been a none issue. 

 

I think this is more of a wide spread issue, namely that the overall population is declining and not just one thing.

[Marbing]

28 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

I seriously doubt pvp drove everyone away, more along the lines of a declining population on a number of factors.

New games, weather, aging playerbase, old game, people back to work, etc.

I pvp but I'm not on Indom, I'm on Everlasting and I don't RP. So if the conclusion is right I should flee Everlasting for the "pvp server".

 

Hell across all the servers I'm seeing lower populations, I'm watching it unfold before my very eyes that Veracor had to ask multiple times to fill up events going on.

Before it would have a been a none issue. 

 

I think this is more of a wide spread issue, namely that the overall population is declining and not just one thing.

I don’t think the PvP designation drove everyone away, I think it is the reason the population started lower and remains lower. 
 

 

EDIT: To clarify, the current perceived population decline is not a result of the designation. But, the designation doesn’t help to attract new players. It is repellent to growth. Hence why Indom has always been one of the lowest populated servers and remains so to this day. 
 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Marbing

[The_Warpact]

2 hours ago, Marbing said:

 

EDIT: To clarify, the current perceived population decline is not a result of the designation. But, the designation doesn’t help to attract new players. It is repellent to growth. Hence why Indom has always been one of the lowest populated servers and remains so to this day. 
 

 

Which to me is strange considering that most games have pvp in them, Fortnight, Overwatch, most MMOs, FPS, so that shouldn't be a repellent for new players.

 

But, as Mac did say there is alot of pvp on Excelsior so maybe population is more of a defining factor. I can absolutely see having "unofficial pvp server" as a repellent for alot of returning players as most of them didn't pvp. 

[macskull]

On 4/6/2022 at 9:32 AM, Marbing said:

I don’t think the PvP designation drove everyone away, I think it is the reason the population started lower and remains lower.

As I've previously pointed out, the population designations for specific servers did not happen until several days after more servers were added. If Indomitable actually did start out at a lower population (which we cannot know for sure without the actual population data from April 2019) it could not have possibly been due to its designation as "the PvP server" since that designation did not exist when the server was brought up.

 

On 4/6/2022 at 12:22 PM, The_Warpact said:

Which to me is strange considering that most games have pvp in them, Fortnight, Overwatch, most MMOs, FPS, so that shouldn't be a repellent for new players.

 

But, as Mac did say there is alot of pvp on Excelsior so maybe population is more of a defining factor. I can absolutely see having "unofficial pvp server" as a repellent for alot of returning players as most of them didn't pvp. 

1. It's not that strange to me. City of Heroes has always had one of the most bizarrely toxic anti-PvP playerbases of any game I've ever played. This was true back on live, and it's true here. Excuses for these attitudes range from "PvP was added later as an afterthought" (it's on record from before launch that PvP was going to be in the game) to "PvP gets everything nerfed" (but none of these nerfs ever got rolled back once PvP power functions were split out) to "a PvPer killed me while I was badging" (strange that you, a player, are getting attacked by another player in a zone which you had to intentionally enter and that has a popup warning which explicitly tells you you can be attacked by other players). Lot of this game's players don't care either way but hoooooooo boy are the ones who do loud.
2. I wouldn't say there's "a lot" of PvP on Excelsior. I can't just drop into Recluse's Victory and find other players to fight against. This is not entirely surprising, considering HC's population is only a fraction of what the live servers had even at peak hours.

[M3z]

Are people who are choosing servers even aware indom is the designated pvp server? lol

 

I don't think it says anywhere except the forums no?

 

Crazy how ass pained this community gets about pvp because it threatens their power fantasy since PvE in this game is the easiest in probably any MMO that's ever existed except maybe club penguin or something.

Edited April 8, 2022 by M3z

[Marbing]

50 minutes ago, macskull said:

As I've previously pointed out, the population designations for specific servers did not happen until several days after more servers were added. If Indomitable actually did start out at a lower population (which we cannot know for sure without the actual population data from April 2019) it could not have possibly been due to its designation as "the PvP server" since that designation did not exist when the server was brought up.

Umm… several DAYS… not weeks, months, years. Let’s stop playing up that few day delay as though it would have a major impact on server population over the past 3 years.

 

Mac, I like you and often refer to your advice and other points on these forums, and on discord, but I am afraid on this matter I entirely disagree. Let’s just leave it at that.

 

 

3 minutes ago, M3z said:

Crazy how ass pained this community gets about pvp because it threatens their power fantasy since PvE in this game is the easiest in probably any MMO that's ever existed except maybe club penguin or something.

First, PvP threatens PvE in no way whatsoever. Second, your comment implies you believe PvPers to be superior to PvEers in some way. PvP in this game is no harder than PvE and the players that PvP aren’t any better at the game. They are entirely different and one isn’t greater than the other. Period. Let’s keep this civil please and not start getting snarky and elitist.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Marbing said:

Umm… several DAYS… not weeks, months, years. Let’s stop playing up that few day delay as though it would have a major impact on server population over the past 3 years.

 

Mac, I like you and often refer to your advice and other points on these forums, and on discord, but I am afraid on this matter I entirely disagree. Let’s just leave it at that.

 

 

First, PvP threatens PvE in no way whatsoever. Second, your comment implies you believe PvPers to be superior to PvEers in some way. PvP in this game is no harder than PvE and the players that PvP aren’t any better at the game. They are entirely different and one isn’t greater than the other. Period. Let’s keep this civil please and not start getting snarky and elitist.

 

You're the one forwarding your pet theory that the unofficial pvp designation has made this server repellant to other players and is to blame for the lack of growth. I know you think this obvious and true and whatnot--but it isn't. And pvpers have listened to variations of this line of reasoning throughout the entire history of the game. For me it's the inverse. The guildmates I used to pvp with don't want to come back for a variety of reasons but a common thread is that they don't want to hear crap like this. Pvers can completely avoid pvp if they so choose. The Homecoming devs made improvements, but pvpers still have to pve in order to prepare their characters.

 

Also in the other thread you said that the zone pvpers had gone to Excelsior to find victims. Haha? Pot meet kettle?

[Marbing]

10 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Also in the other thread you said that the zone pvpers had gone to Excelsior to find victims. Haha? Pot meet kettle?

Lol this was a joke, I even did a tongue face… let’s not spin things out of context.

 

10 hours ago, battlewraith said:

You're the one forwarding your pet theory that the unofficial pvp designation has made this server repellant to other players and is to blame for the lack of growth. I know you think this obvious and true and whatnot--but it isn't. And pvpers have listened to variations of this line of reasoning throughout the entire history of the game. For me it's the inverse. The guildmates I used to pvp with don't want to come back for a variety of reasons but a common thread is that they don't want to hear crap like this. Pvers can completely avoid pvp if they so choose. The Homecoming devs made improvements, but pvpers still have to pve in order to prepare their characters.

The fact that the PvP designation has had an impact on Indom’s population is in no way meant to be a reflection on the character of PvPers. It’s a reflection on natural human tendencies. If I am new to a game I rarely ever pick the PvP server to set up camp. This isn’t because I am scared of PvP or the PvPers. It’s because I don’t prefer it. The way this game handles PvP is different from many of the other MMOs out there (old or new):

 

SWTOR (actually just found out SWTOR PvP server doesn’t exist anymore… hmm wonder why…)

WoW

ESO

EVE

Guild Wars

Age of Conan

etc etc

 

All of those have open world PvP. So when you join a PvP server it implies open world PvP. CoH doesn’t have open world PvP, but when new players hear that Indom is the PvP server and they don’t want to PvP, what do you think their natural inclination is going to be? When you combine that with its now low population it’s not going to have a whole lot of draw at its current state. 
 

My argument is that it has an impact. A significant one when you extrapolate it over time. Of course it’s not THE ONLY impact but it is an impact. 
 

But, again… agree to disagree.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Marbing
Added comment on SWTOR

[Reiraku]

On 4/7/2022 at 4:34 PM, macskull said:

 

It's not that strange to me. City of Heroes has always had one of the most bizarrely toxic anti-PvP playerbases of any game I've ever played. This was true back on live, and it's true here. Excuses for these attitudes range from "PvP was added later as an afterthought" (it's on record from before launch that PvP was going to be in the game) to "PvP gets everything nerfed" (but none of these nerfs ever got rolled back once PvP power functions were split out) to "a PvPer killed me while I was badging" (strange that you, a player, are getting attacked by another player in a zone which you had to intentionally enter and that has a popup warning which explicitly tells you you can be attacked by other players). Lot of this game's players don't care either way but hoooooooo boy are the ones who do loud.

 

 

Dragging out some OLLLLLD screens from back in the day.

 

Don't mind me. I'm just feeling nostalgic is all.

[Glacier Peak]

22 minutes ago, Reiraku said:

 

Dragging out some OLLLLLD screens from back in the day.

 

Don't mind me. I'm just feeling nostalgic is all.

Wow that's toxic! 🤯