Frost - a 90 degree cone

[Ukase]

I wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, so General works as well as anything else, I think. 

I'm currently on an ice/shield scrapper. My first instinct was to make this a tank, because tanks seem to do better with cones, and in my feeble opinion, Frost is the defining power of Ice melee. But, I've got a fire/ice tank, and the angle for cone on that tank is 90, same as with the scrapper. 

And, with a defensive armor, the 15% difference in resist cap is less important due to the high positional defense. 

I've opted with what I consider to be somewhat traditional slotting with this scrapper - aside from Frost, where I've got two Ranged IOs, extending the range of the cone. I do this based on my understanding, or lack thereof that the more range the cone has, the more volume it covers, hitting more npcs. 

Cones are interesting. There was a time when I would take fire breath or frost breath on my blasters because, well, the damage was relatively good. But, the negative about the cone is you have to position your character, or the NPCs in such a way as to take full advantage of the cone. This can slow things down as you may imagine. 

Enter Fold Space. I noticed the first time I got Fold Space and used it - the way they land after the port is pretty much in a cone. At least, that's what I remember about it. But, I'm not there yet. I'll get it in the next power pick, but not there yet. 

One of the disappointing things is I can only find a way to use two sets Bombardier IOs (ranged AoE) in the build. Frost, and something out of the epics. So, that's 2 sets of 5% buff in the 10 foot range. Still can only get 10 targets at a time, but right now, I think the max I've gotten is 5, but the average # of npcs is two. The NPCs all scatter around my character like flies. With Burn, not an issue, as it's PBAoE, but with Frost...it takes positioning. Cardiac Alpha is in store for the resist buff as well as the increased range, but here's what I'm wondering: 

When the Detailed Info tab says 90 degrees...what does that really mean in practice? 

My last geometry class was...10th grade...1982-83. Isn't this an accurate geographical representation of 90 degrees? 


I promise you, anecdotally, the angle of my cones are far closer to 45 than 90. Is it an error in the description, or my understanding of angles? Or am I just suffering from perception bias? 

I kind of wish there were some type of reticle that showed the actual angle before I actually mash the button to execute the attack. 

[arcane]

Freezing Touch is obviously the actual defining power since it’s like the best DPA melee attack in the game or something (post-EF ET excluded). 
 

There’s a reason it has top tier single target DPS potential even though every other single target attack in the set is average to bad.

 

As for Frost, there’s no way in hell it’s hitting with a smaller cone than than 90. Definitely perception bias or picking bad targets. One of the easiest melee cones to feel effective with after Arc of Destruction, Crowd Control, etc.

Edited April 10, 2022 by arcane

[MoonSheep]

i have made an ice/shield scrapper to play around with for similar reasons that @arcane has noted. whilst ice melee doesn’t “feel” particularly strong, having frost, freezing touch and frozen aura makes for quite a well balanced attack set

 

if solo, i aggro a mob and then set an ice patch just round the corner, this gets them piling up nicely which allows for a good application of frost

[Ukase]

26 minutes ago, arcane said:

Freezing Touch is obviously the actual defining power since it’s like the best DPA melee attack in the game or something (post-EF ET excluded). 
 

There’s a reason it has top tier single target DPS potential even though every other single target attack in the set is average to bad.

 

As for Frost, there’s no way in hell it’s hitting with a smaller cone than than 90. Definitely perception bias or picking bad targets. One of the easiest melee cones to feel effective with after Arc of Destruction, Crowd Control, etc.

Freezing Touch is nice enough. But it's single target. Frost is superior in that it gets more targets in less time. Simply put, it's better. But that's just my opinion. Why they made it a hold, in addition to being superior damage, I've no idea, but it lends itself to more slotting options, so not complaining. 

I just want to take further advantage of Frost. It's not burn, but if it were PBAoE, it certainly would seem to be from where I sit. It's strange. I also will use my taunt aura of sorts (Against All Odds) to aggro, go behind a corner or dumpster or whatever, lay the ice patch. 3-5 npcs will flop around, but Frost will only hit 2-3 of them, usually. Not sure why they don't all get damage as they're all in the patch. Surely the patch isn't extending beyond the range of the cone. Maybe it is. I dunno. Just seems strange for it to capture the whole group sometimes and not miss, but not hit half the group other times. 

And it could certainly be perception bias, but I don't think so. I just wish it were easier to determine the actual range of the cone before firing it. If it's player error - and that's likely, if I don't figure it out by 50 levels, well, I guess I just won't play it and consider it a non-learning experience. 
 

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

 

As you said:

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

the more range the cone has, the more volume it covers, hitting more npcs.

 So assume, for the sake of argument, that at base your attack will hit anything between the center point at the bottom of your illustration to somewhere halfway between that point and the semi-circles marked 45 degrees.  That's not a lot of ground covered.  But improving it by 50% to get to the 45 degree line and you get MORE than 50% more ground covered because it is expanding as it travels out.

 

So I think that you are correct in concept but maybe need a bot more +range or a slight adjustment before firing to hit the most possible.

 

PS - I had a thought that you might be able to do some practicing on the RWZ dummies to get a feel for the range and the angle.  Or use one of those neat Aeon temp power dummies, if you have one.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[aethereal]

By the way, the tanker bonus to arc doesn't show up in in game info, because it's applied by a global proc (this is one of several reasons that I think HC overuses global procs).  I don't know how to tell if frost is exempted from the bonus, and don't care to go back to try to find the patch notes, but it *probably* has a wider effective arc on tanks.

 

EDIT: Actually, I think I do understand how to tell if it's exempted.  Powers that are exempted have "Strength Disallowed: Arc."  Frost does not have this; it should be affected by the Tanker Cone Arc Bonus.

Edited April 10, 2022 by aethereal

[arcane]

The higher range on Frost actually gives it the vibe of a 135 degree cone to me. 45 = get outta here 😉

[arcane]

19 minutes ago, aethereal said:

By the way, the tanker bonus to arc doesn't show up in in game info, because it's applied by a global proc (this is one of several reasons that I think HC overuses global procs). 

Which quietly functions as an arbitrary Tanker proc rate buff, it’s pretty nuts.

[Ukase]

7 hours ago, arcane said:

Which quietly functions as an arbitrary Tanker proc rate buff, it’s pretty nuts.

I think I mentioned, I have a fire/ice tank, (not a farmer) and the way frost performs on it is quite good. And really, if I take a few extra seconds, the frost for the Scrapper is also good. But it's just irritating me that if you imagine I'm "frosting" at three bowling pins (the first one, and the two behind it) and sometimes, it will not damage the one in the second row on the left, and sometimes it won't damage the one in the second row on the right - even though as far as I can tell, my avatar is in the same position. 

I did have very good luck using doorways as a funnel for the frost, if you will. Got to 38, so I have Shield Charge, so making frost effective is less of a need now. Still, I think the powerset is quite good, even if it takes a bit of practice. 

[Onlyasandwich]

11 hours ago, Ukase said:

Frost is superior in that it gets more targets in less time.

I agree that Frost is deceptively great! It offers a lot more than most Tanker cones:

• Superior damage type
• Superior Dam per End.
• Easy cone to line up and hit many targets with.
• Outstanding procability.

 

It's not even that bad to use as a ST damage power when needed. That being said, I wouldn't say it's "better" than freezing touch. They are both amazing powers. I would say that FT gets more credit for its excellence though.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I’ve been going down the non-elemental sword ice melee wormhole, and it’s pretty great.  I’m running mostly scrappers since I want *some* survivabilty challenge.  Frost is the real star of the set.  So many great bonuses/procs.  Most definitely 90 degrees, and if you can work in some range extension, you will not regret it.

[SaintD]

15 hours ago, Ukase said:

Why they made it a hold, in addition to being superior damage, I've no idea, but it lends itself to more slotting options, so not complaining. 

 

Pretty sure that was just a hold, like Clobber in War Mace. They then realized both these sets completely sucked and dumped massive damage on Clobber and Freezing Touch to make the sets as a whole do more than tickle damage.

[Carnifax]

18 hours ago, arcane said:

Which quietly functions as an arbitrary Tanker proc rate buff, it’s pretty nuts.

I wondered about this, and asked some of the dev team about it and got radio silence ("So does the proc formula take into account the extra AoE / Cone buffs Tanks got, because if not that seems a bit suss?"). 

 

I suspected it was a stealth buff of procs on Tanks but wasn't sure. So of course I then completely abused it....

[arcane]

5 hours ago, Carnifax said:

I wondered about this, and asked some of the dev team about it and got radio silence ("So does the proc formula take into account the extra AoE / Cone buffs Tanks got, because if not that seems a bit suss?"). 

 

I suspected it was a stealth buff of procs on Tanks but wasn't sure. So of course I then completely abused it....

Correct that proc formulas do not account for the boost. It’s like having a recharge buff like Hasten as opposed to recharge enhancements. Proc rate calculated before the buff.

 

Also note that “Radius” and “Range” are separate quantities too, so slotting range in a ranged cone effectively increases its radius but the internal value for radius doesn’t actually change. So that’s another way the proc rate formula is sometimes bypassed.

Edited April 11, 2022 by arcane