PvP suggestions (Civil feedback only please)

[Rudra]

5 hours ago, TheZag said:

I was going off of 100% slow resistance seems to make me immune to slow effects. 

Debuff resist is not status resist. Debuff resist like slow resist can reach immunity if you reach 100% resist. Status resist like hold resist works as @Marbing posted.

 

(Edit: At least until unresistable effects start smacking you.)

Edited April 21, 2022 by Rudra
Corrected "lest" to "least".

[Xanatos]

14 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Then we've buffed the meta even further for some ridiculous reason and took away anything competitive for underperforming ATs to leverage and that seems reasonable to you eh?  And you hope to attract more people with this strategy?

 

The blaster buff had nothing to do with the PvP community.

The only thing the PvP community has asked the devs for is nerfs and maps. Neither of those things are going to push players away from PvP.

I think the decline of PvPers in this game is likely due to a combination of:

• The novelty of City of Heroes being back wearing off.
• The Indom server dying.
• The Homecoming population decreasing in general.
• A lack of PvP knowledge on the dev team. (There was a crey pistol accolade nerf last year by a PvE dev which caused a bunch of PvPers to quit. Before that there was a blaster /TA nerf by the same dev that had a similar impact.).
• No Homecoming-run PvP events.
• The above points making hardcore PvPers apathetic, which caused them to quit. Those that remain end up using the official Homecoming PvP discord as a frat house. (Unwelcoming to newbies.)
• With less hardcore PvPers around, less chance for casual players to get involved in PvP.
• More and more people saying "PvP is dead". With a population this small, saying something enough times can make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Why bother getting involved with something if everyone says it's dead, ya know?

So it's a mixed bag of the nature of time, lack of PvP interest in the dev team, and the PvP community becoming less friendly. I don't think it's fair to blame any one thing.

Best way to get more people involved in PvP would be to  have an in-game vendor who sells free IOs that only work in PvP zones/on PvP maps. I'm sure a lot more people would test the waters if there was zero-cost.

[Marbing]

1 hour ago, Xanatos said:

I'm sure a lot more people would test the waters if there was zero-cost.

Which goes back to a point I have made before. Make PvP worth its investment and you will get more people involved.

[TheZag]

I dont mind being wrong over the specifics of status resistances.  But i think the diminishing returns would be a step in the right direction.

 

Most games where i had fun in pvp had the majority of their hold effects on a 30 to 60 second cooldown and those that werent went to like 50% duration on their second application then to 25% then 10% and then you were immune for the next 20ish seconds. 

[macskull]

3 hours ago, TheZag said:

I dont mind being wrong over the specifics of status resistances.  But i think the diminishing returns would be a step in the right direction.

 

Most games where i had fun in pvp had the majority of their hold effects on a 30 to 60 second cooldown and those that werent went to like 50% duration on their second application then to 25% then 10% and then you were immune for the next 20ish seconds. 

I saw an interesting suggestion: mez durations scale with team size so they're longer in 1v1 situations and shorter in 8v8 situations. I don't necessarily think that's the right solution, but mez working in a more dynamic fashion might be the only way to keep it from being next to useless in one scenario and brokenly good in another.

[M3z]

On 4/21/2022 at 2:10 PM, Xanatos said:

 

The blaster buff had nothing to do with the PvP community.

The only thing the PvP community has asked the devs for is nerfs and maps. Neither of those things are going to push players away from PvP.

I think the decline of PvPers in this game is likely due to a combination of:

• The novelty of City of Heroes being back wearing off.
• The Indom server dying.
• The Homecoming population decreasing in general.
• A lack of PvP knowledge on the dev team. (There was a crey pistol accolade nerf last year by a PvE dev which caused a bunch of PvPers to quit. Before that there was a blaster /TA nerf by the same dev that had a similar impact.).
• No Homecoming-run PvP events.
• The above points making hardcore PvPers apathetic, which caused them to quit. Those that remain end up using the official Homecoming PvP discord as a frat house. (Unwelcoming to newbies.)
• With less hardcore PvPers around, less chance for casual players to get involved in PvP.
• More and more people saying "PvP is dead". With a population this small, saying something enough times can make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Why bother getting involved with something if everyone says it's dead, ya know?

So it's a mixed bag of the nature of time, lack of PvP interest in the dev team, and the PvP community becoming less friendly. I don't think it's fair to blame any one thing.

Best way to get more people involved in PvP would be to  have an in-game vendor who sells free IOs that only work in PvP zones/on PvP maps. I'm sure a lot more people would test the waters if there was zero-cost.

We're definitely working cleaning up the homecoming pvp discord, we also run PUG 8v8 pvp events every tuesday at 9 PM est.

 

I am currently working on a video to help introduce new players/PVErs in 8v8 arenas including easy ways to fund builds and how to play certain roles.

[Mezmera]

On 4/21/2022 at 11:10 AM, Xanatos said:

A lack of PvP knowledge on the dev team. (There was a crey pistol accolade nerf last year by a PvE dev which caused a bunch of PvPers to quit. Before that there was a blaster /TA nerf by the same dev that had a similar impact.).

 

On behalf of the devs I'll just say this does not show the PvP community to be very reasonable.  We're talking about a temp power accolade being pivotal in attacking, not a power pick which there's oh so many of them that underperform, but a temp power.  Maybe the devs want your actual power picks to matter? 

 

I'd say toss out all of those temp accos but the furor over losing the defensive ones would be deafening, and since they are defensive and less noticeable on some ATs it wouldn't be worth the headache of all that whining.  But you'll forgive me for not siding with the "pros" about their offensive non power pick getting a nerfing.  Maybe they should look at all of the other regular power picks that are inconsequential and be thankful their main powers aren't as trash. 

 

Or blaster TA getting a tuning down, like TA blasters aren't still able to do awful well for themselves (the blaster I'd PvP with would be my Dark/TA for reference).  Blasters and Defenders are still unreal damage platforms pumping out way more damage than they should be allowed to do compared to how much risk they can mitigate.  I won't even get into Stalker snipes hitting for the base hp of some ATs when their procs fire.  

 

If the devs catch heat for tuning a few minor things down that affect the meta I can't imagine they'll ever really be able to get any impactful changes through with such an unreasonable crowd.   

 

Lots of cleanup to be done in Isle 6 but don't dare mess with that Crey Pistol!  Poor devs...

Edited April 22, 2022 by Mezmera

[M3z]

59 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

On behalf of the devs I'll just say this does not show the PvP community to be very reasonable.  We're talking about a temp power accolade being pivotal in attacking, not a power pick which there's oh so many of them that underperform, but a temp power.  Maybe the devs want your actual power picks to matter? 

 

I'd say toss out all of those temp accos but the furor over losing the defensive ones would be deafening, and since they are defensive and less noticeable on some ATs it wouldn't be worth the headache of all that whining.  But you'll forgive me for not siding with the "pros" about their offensive non power pick getting a nerfing.  Maybe they should look at all of the other regular power picks that are inconsequential and be thankful their main powers aren't as trash. 

 

Or blaster TA getting a tuning down, like TA blasters aren't still able to do awful well for themselves (the blaster I'd PvP with would be my Dark/TA for reference).  Blasters and Defenders are still unreal damage platforms pumping out way more damage than they should be allowed to do compared to how much risk they can mitigate.  I won't even get into Stalker snipes hitting for the base hp of some ATs when their procs fire.  

 

If the devs catch heat for tuning a few minor things down that affect the meta I can't imagine they'll ever really be able to get any impactful changes through with such an unreasonable crowd.   

 

Lots of cleanup to be done in Isle 6 but don't dare mess with that Crey Pistol!  Poor devs...

Are you disputing the devs don't know much about pvp or that they do? They definitely don't and that's not even a fault to them, it's just a complicated and completely separate system that's been divorced from PVE mechanics-wise since i13. So it really shouldn't be a surprise that no the devs probably don't know that much about pvp (in terms of balancing/changing the meta).

 

As far as all of the hostility, you're giving the pvp community way too much credit, we don't have much of a say in terms of power changes. If the devs want to do something they will do it. And in regards to crey pistol cancelling, it was fun and it made more builds viable (isn't that what we want? more viable builds?). Is it a nonsensical bandaid that doesn't make sense and probably a bug? Yeah, but so is everything in pvp right now. It added a small amount of depth and allowed for ATs/powersets that used to rely on CCs or had very slow animations to be slightly more viable. Bottom line everyone just found it to make the game more FUN. 95% of the community wanted to keep it but the devs went ahead and did what they wanted.

 

Now if you're wondering why the pvp community is focused on something as trivial as that and not the huge balance issues with ATs and powersets. Everyone in the community is aware of the balance issues. Everyone is aware that i12 is better. EVERYONE KNOWS! You are not the first person to see how BS pvp is right now. It's just a matter of dev resources. The code for i12 doesn't exist. Who knows how much work it would take to go back and then balance it. So many things exist now that that would absolutely ruin the game worse than anything that exists in pvp right now. There's just not enough dev resources to justify doing a massive undertaking like that right now.

 

The solution is to fix/bandaid what we have now and just try and make it as enjoyable as possible IMO. Is it annoying that blasters/defenders are so much stronger than everything else? Yes, but let's focus on changes that can make other ATs/powersets viable in the current system. We'll probably have to get creative but I really don't think it'd be that hard to do small changes to make other ATs/powersets viable.

Edited April 22, 2022 by M3z

[Xanatos]

On 4/21/2022 at 8:19 PM, Marbing said:

Which goes back to a point I have made before. Make PvP worth its investment and you will get more people involved.

It's a good idea! The most fun I ever had at PvP was back on live when the roleplayers on virtue would do big events in the PvP zones with stories behind them. Having to hunt down certain player characters as they trash-talked in broadcast. Good times.

 

(I tried 8v8 right before shut down but was terrible at it. Silit /Vinnie/Lib/and some of the more experienced PvPers managed to carry me to a tourney win though. Mostly for the lulz of having an RPer on their team I imagine.)

 

 

2 hours ago, M3z said:

We're definitely working cleaning up the homecoming pvp discord, we also run PUG 8v8 pvp events every tuesday at 9 PM est.

 

I am currently working on a video to help introduce new players/PVErs in 8v8 arenas including easy ways to fund builds and how to play certain roles.

 

Didn't mean to criticize the discord. These things always happen when a crowd gets small enough. Nature of the beast.

 

Good on you for trying to breath some life into it, though. If I wasn't a filthy euro I'd come try join in the fun.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

On behalf of the devs I'll just say this does not show the PvP community to be very reasonable.  We're talking about a temp power accolade being pivotal in attacking, not a power pick which there's oh so many of them that underperform, but a temp power.  Maybe the devs want your actual power picks to matter? 

 

I'd say toss out all of those temp accos but the furor over losing the defensive ones would be deafening, and since they are defensive and less noticeable on some ATs it wouldn't be worth the headache of all that whining.  But you'll forgive me for not siding with the "pros" about their offensive non power pick getting a nerfing.  Maybe they should look at all of the other regular power picks that are inconsequential and be thankful their main powers aren't as trash. 

 

Or blaster TA getting a tuning down, like TA blasters aren't still able to do awful well for themselves (the blaster I'd PvP with would be my Dark/TA for reference).  Blasters and Defenders are still unreal damage platforms pumping out way more damage than they should be allowed to do compared to how much risk they can mitigate.  I won't even get into Stalker snipes hitting for the base hp of some ATs when their procs fire.  

 

If the devs catch heat for tuning a few minor things down that affect the meta I can't imagine they'll ever really be able to get any impactful changes through with such an unreasonable crowd.   

 

Lots of cleanup to be done in Isle 6 but don't dare mess with that Crey Pistol!  Poor devs...

 

If you want to find out more about those two changes, check out the "Golden Standard Testers" Discord. The chatlogs around the changes should all still be there.

This thread should also have more details for you re: the crey pistol nerf.

[Mezmera]

47 minutes ago, M3z said:

Are you disputing the devs don't know much about pvp or that they do? They definitely don't and that's not even a fault to them, it's just a complicated and completely separate system that's been divorced from PVE mechanics-wise since i13. So it really shouldn't be a surprise that no the devs probably don't know that much about pvp (in terms of balancing/changing the meta).

 

As far as all of the hostility, you're giving the pvp community way too much credit, we don't have much of a say in terms of power changes. If the devs want to do something they will do it. And in regards to crey pistol cancelling, it was fun and it made more builds viable (isn't that what we want? more viable builds?). Is it a nonsensical bandaid that doesn't make sense and probably a bug? Yeah, but so is everything in pvp right now. It added a small amount of depth and allowed for ATs/powersets that used to rely on CCs or had very slow animations to be slightly more viable. Bottom line everyone just found it to make the game more FUN. 95% of the community wanted to keep it but the devs went ahead and did what they wanted.

 

Now if you're wondering why is the pvp community is focused on something as trivial as that and not the huge balance issues with ATs and powersets. Everyone in the community is aware of the balance issues. Everyone is aware that i12 is better. EVERYONE KNOWS! You are not the first person to see how BS pvp is right now. It's just a matter of dev resources. The code for i12 doesn't exist. Who knows how much work it would take to go back and then balance it. So many things exist now that that would absolutely ruin the game worse than anything that exists in pvp right now. There's just not enough dev resources to justify doing a massive undertaking like that right now.

 

The solution is to fix/bandaid what we have now and just try and make it as enjoyable as possible IMO. Is it annoying that blasters/defenders are so much stronger than everything else? Yes, but let's focus on changes that can make other ATs/powersets viable in the current system. We'll probably have to get creative but I really don't think it'd be that hard to do small changes to make other ATs/powersets viable.

 

I get that it's night and day between the two systems.  I'm sure there's little focus on PvP and rightly so, there's a lot less ego's to massage in PvE, just give them a bunch of toys to play with and they're mostly happy.  

 

Maybe a little more self awareness is in order.  You all know the real worst offenders but it looks like any attempt that would be made to do anything about it is met with disdain because it directly affects most players *or it's more control nerfs...

 

Lets say they're not going to pre-i13 pvp either because of lost code or sheer manpower to redo it.  Now what?

 

They seem adamant leaving the HP of blasters where its at along with all of the other extra toys they got.  Now what?

 

Defenders buffing/debuffing is a smidge too good.  Now what?

 

I get that you're not full on board with the devs being able to dictate any little thing they should do with areas of pvp but also throwing them under the bus isn't helping the cause.  I agree with @MJB that you all should be looking at damage, healing and some other values in relation to their AT rather than pining for a system dead and buried.  

Edited April 22, 2022 by Mezmera
*to indicate sarcasm

[macskull]

19 hours ago, Mezmera said:

They seem adamant leaving the HP of blasters where its at along with all of the other extra toys they got.  Now what?

 

Defenders buffing/debuffing is a smidge too good.  Now what? 

Your first point has been discussed at length but there isn't a way to change HP separately between PvE and PvP and at this point lowering Blaster HP in PvE is a nonstarter. Adjusting Blaster base resistances might be a possible solution but with DR on damage resistance even a 10% or 20% reduction doesn't actually get significant results once you factor in epic/patron shields.

 

Your second point is already being addressed on a case-by-case basis. Defender buffs are definitely not too good because DR means there's virtually no difference between what a Defender can do and a Corruptor/Controller can do. Debuffs are a little different but for the most part they're not in a bad place. The -res from Envenom was reduced in PvP a few patches back to address this concern though - this was never an issue before because Defenders didn't have Poison and the all-over-the-place power proliferation done after shutdown was done with no regard for PvP balance concerns.

[Mezmera]

24 minutes ago, macskull said:

Your second point is already being addressed on a case-by-case basis. Defender buffs are definitely not too good because DR means there's virtually no difference between what a Defender can do and a Corruptor/Controller can do. Debuffs are a little different but for the most part they're not in a bad place. The -res from Envenom was reduced in PvP a few patches back to address this concern though - this was never an issue before because Defenders didn't have Poison and the all-over-the-place power proliferation done after shutdown was done with no regard for PvP balance concerns.

 

Yes the buffing was tossed in as a generality when looking specifically at Nature and all that it can do.  It seems right now it's "make Nature/Elec Blast, Win".

 

But the flip side is the damage Defenders can attain when also they can have better control over a match than an actual control AT which as you pointed out that Poison does this better than Cold.  So you're being disingenuous when you even know yourself that debuffs not being subject to the same cockamamie rules as mez allows things like -recharge to shine while a mez on a control character is laughed off then the Defender shoots back a better proc'd mez.  

 

Anything say 6v6 or less and its just better to have the debuffer which you'd only find actual control mattering in your 8v8 meta you all keep shaping things around to fit all the while the control AT has been relegated to a gimmick role since sunset.   

 

I stopped playing pvp two years ago when I saw how much worse things had gotten and yet for some odd reason in patch notes I was seeing "fixes" to mez powers and not much else.  That had me like "wait are we playing the same game?", I get it though it's tough to roll up your sleeves and try to come up with a fix to things that actually suits how you like to play, but not all of us like playing the same fotm thing day in and day out.  

[macskull]

On 4/23/2022 at 1:01 PM, Mezmera said:

Yes the buffing was tossed in as a generality when looking specifically at Nature and all that it can do.  It seems right now it's "make Nature/Elec Blast, Win". 

I haven't seen a single Nature/Elec in a PvP environment, so this looks like a case of "seems like" != "reality." Nature's a good set, but it's not actually that great in small-team, 1v1, or zone stuff. The cooldowns and animation times on its best powers are too long to be useful in those environments. Nature shines in large-team matches, but even then it's far from a requirement.

 

On 4/23/2022 at 1:01 PM, Mezmera said:

So you're being disingenuous when you even know yourself that debuffs not being subject to the same cockamamie rules as mez allows things like -recharge to shine

It's currently very possible to build a character that's completely immune to recharge and movement debuffs, even factoring in DR.

 

On 4/23/2022 at 1:01 PM, Mezmera said:

Anything say 6v6 or less and its just better to have the debuffer which you'd only find actual control mattering in your 8v8 meta you all keep shaping things around to fit all the while the control AT has been relegated to a gimmick role since sunset.

I'm not 100% sure what point you are trying to make here, but control never mattered in large team stuff. Even pre-I13 the only Controllers you saw on most teams were Ill/Emps, and I think I can count on one hand the number of players who ran Dominators on the redside teams. Mez was borderline brokenly good in dueling situations under the old rules - you basically had to be super aggressive to get a kill on your opponent early and then hope your breakfrees lasted the rest of the match or you'd be playing City of Statues. Under the post-I13 ruleset, control is not particularly useful in duels and small-team stuff (short of dropping offensive toggles, which is somewhat useful depending on your opponent) while being absolutely broken in large-team stuff: drop a hold/stun on a target and then spike them, and there is literally nothing anyone can do about it.

[Mezmera]

6 hours ago, macskull said:

I haven't seen a single Nature/Elec in a PvP environment, so this looks like a case of "seems like" != "reality." Nature's a good set, but it's not actually that great in small-team, 1v1, or zone stuff.

 

@Sessa won the 1v1 ranged tourney on her Nature/Ice.  Totally terrible yes do go on.  

 

 

Blasters and Defenders galore.  One lone dom for giggles, gee.....

 

This was before the Elec Blast buff which I'm seeing members of Platypus in Excelsior Pocket D shaming people to switch off of the uber sapper they just brought to their casual fight unless they want to up the armament.  

 

See @Alouu with his Nature/Elec?  Mac maybe you should get out more.  Someone's speaking out of their rear and I'm not entirely sure its me.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Mezmera