PvP suggestions (Civil feedback only please)

[Marbing]

I’d love to get back into PvP, I’d love for i13 to go away, but I also know how unrealistic that expectation is. So here we are but we are not without hope entirely. We have a dedicated and passionate PvP player base and I am certain a lot of people out there that are on the fence about PvP but just don’t think it’s worth their investment/time…
 

That said, I don’t know what changes NEED to happen, but whatever they are here are some of the things I’d like to see accomplished by those changes:

 

A) Open up more builds/ATs to being relatively competitive. 
B) Give incentive enough to PvP that makes it worth the investment. Idc what the incentive is, more fun things to do, more merits, whatevs… just some examples and it doesn’t have to be those.

 

Now one change I can suggest to get things started here is:

 

Introduce worthwhile PvP events. I would love to see an alert for RV where heroes/villains are needed for xyz task. Much like the Nemesis events or Rikti Invasions. Something that will draw a crowd. Which means it will have to be worth it. And likely means opposing goals.
 

Example: Lord Recluse spawns in RV and is up to no good! Heroes try to defeat him while fighting off the Villain Players, Villains try to keep him alive while fighting off the Hero players. Just an example. But you get the gist. Again, it would have to be WORTH it. Merits to the winning team, something significant.

 

Any other ideas? And please, I know this is a polarizing topic, but we can communicate without name calling and respectfully agree to disagree at times.

[Rudra]

As much as I hate PvP, I'll throw my hat into the ring and see how badly everyone tries to crucify me. Okay, here goes....

 

1) Go back to the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach CoX's PvP used to be. If you have protection against something, you retain it even in PvP. The magnitude of protection can be cut in half or to 1/4 so mezzers have a chance against brutes and tankers, but otherwise kill the two-versions of powers dependent upon where you are schtick.

 

2) If you are subject to the PvP timer, you may neither attack another player nor be attacked by another player until the timer finishes counting down to 0. I don't PvP, so I don't know if that is how the timer already works. I am just covering my bases.

 

3) For those that seem to love the Jade Spider and want it to be a GM, throw it into its actual zone. An event where the Jade Spider is no longer the unique entity only accessible through Lord Nemesis... I mean... Mender Silos... but is a true GM that spawns in Siren's Call for up to 1 hour or its destruction, whichever comes first. Not to occur more than once every 4 hours since last despawn/destruction. Red side players would see it as an ally while blue side players see it as an enemy. (No badge since it is allied with players dependent on their current faction. Instead, it can award 6 or so merits.) If you want to make it a dual-side protection gig, then the Jade Spider is out to destroy an armed Longbow construct of some type in the zone. Maybe a platform not far from the base is being developed into a forward operating base in the zone and the newly rebuilt Jade Spider is sent to destroy it. Heroes get the merits for destroying the Jade Spider while villains get the merits for destroying the construction.

 

As I've said on multiple occasions, I detest PvP and started playing CoH because it had no PvP element at the time. However, this is my ha'penny of thoughts on the matter. (If only because I think they are worth at least more than a red cent....)

[Glacier Peak]

Thinking about this, I come up with more questions and not answers. Needs are driven by objectives. What is the purpose these needs are addressing? Expanding the player base interest in PvP? To what end and what will that achieve?

 

If the objective was to expand interest in PvP and the method was by decreasing the player skill ceiling, well that was what happened in Issue 13. There should absolutely be a low entry barrier for newer players who have never tried out the PvP mechanic. At the same time, there should be a high skill ceiling to allow for competition to flourish, which itself drives increased interest. Sure, I would love for my Ice/Cold Corruptor to be as great as it was in Issue 13 (web cocoon, drop sleet and Benumb, then drop Ice Blasts), but the meta is what has really changed, not the effectiveness of my build. Damage output is what absolutely makes the most difference in social and competitive settings. Why waste 2.5 seconds casting a debuff on an enemy when an effective damage spike can take out 2,000+ HP characters in the same amount of time? If the goal is to defeat other players, time over damage output is the formula to do it.

 

Incentivizing, regulating, laissez faire, whatever stance (or even a mix of them) the HC Team takes, some things will work and others will not due to things that can't be controlled. When Homecoming went live in 2019, there was an active PvP player base, many weekly (sometimes daily) events ran by both players and GMs, rewards, social events, competitive play. Once the sheen of nostalgia wore off, the player base interested in PvP leveled off to what we are seeing now. I would recommend looking through the PvP sub forum and through Indomitable's sub forum to see all the events that were hosted and ran (and the prizes offered - Gold Titles, billions of Inf, permanent temp costumes, etc.). So incentivizing has happened. Regulating gameplay, in the forum of listening to the PvP player base and deciding what improvements to make, that is a work in progress. Sometimes things work out nicely (PvP fakkolades, new arena maps, for example) other times, the changes aren't as well liked (cryo pistol animating canceling bug fix). The laissez faire part is what's been going on lately, but its not an intentional "lets keep away and hope it dies" kind of attitude, its more like "lets have the player base do what they want, organize events, migrate to larger population servers to have more opponents, etc."

 

I don't have any name calling, except other than to say that name calling is actually a very important part of PvP. When communicating over voice chat. As in, attack this target in 3, 2, 1, fire. 😄

[The_Warpact]

I agree, I would love to get back into it. I never PVPed before this game or for that matter after.

I had so much fun, maybe I was lucky that I had a VG that wanted to do it too AND we learned and had fun. Yeah we got stomped once in awhile, but, we didn't hate its like playing digital football or any other competitive sport.

Sure we knew some toxic ass PvPers but I saw alot worse coming from the PVE crowd. Which was sad because if they gave it half a chance they might like it.(but I digress)

 

I do agree that some incentive need to be there for a reward, special badges, trophies, something. Also, Shivans and Nukes are basically a joke now with P2W pets and Incarnate powers so they need buffed up or something that makes them unique AND desired. 

 

@Rudra hey at least you responded with an idea to make it something worthwhile and to me very interesting. Thanks 😊 

 

I would very much *love* for something to happen and I'm going to make a toon and give it a try, so I can contribute, and at least know what this system is like now.

[Marbing]

30 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Thinking about this, I come up with more questions and not answers. Needs are driven by objectives. What is the purpose these needs are addressing? Expanding the player base interest in PvP? To what end and what will that achieve?

 

If the objective was to expand interest in PvP and the method was by decreasing the player skill ceiling, well that was what happened in Issue 13.

For the first part of the quote:

The intent is to increase player involvement in a way organized PvP activities can’t. As vocal and organized as the PvP community can be they alone will never overcome the giant wall between PvP and PvE without Dev involvement and intention to make PvP more attractive. (Without alienating the current PvP population.)
 

For the second part of this quote: yes and no. The update had that intent, sure I can agree with that. But i13 made PvP less accessible, not more. It lowered the ceiling sure, but it raised the floor in a very real way by making it behave so entirely different from PvE in so many ways. A player can no longer “try out” PvP with their controller, because the second they launch a hold on their target that target is out of the hold before they can take full advantage of it and now can’t be held again for some time. That’s just one example. 

 

I know you know this so I am sorry if that came across as patronizing or if it seemed like I made any assumptions in any way that you didn’t. That isn’t the intent. It’s more for everyone else reading to understand my point of view as to why I think PvP became less accessible to the general player base after i13.

 

I think any update to PvP that could be positive will find a way to lower the floor a bit, without lowering the ceiling. If an update can be done that both lowers the floor and raises the ceiling that would be even better. But, beggars can’t be choosers lol. So I am hoping to see suggestions that would accomplish this, as well as any other suggestions we think would increase player involvement in PvP.

[arcane]

Slows and mezzes would need to go back to pre-i13 state at the least. I used to love duels the best, and my favorite characters were Storms and Colds. Disruption and whittle-down-slowly wins were my favorite. The City of Blasters burst-damage-or-just-don’t-play meta is lame as hell. 
 

That said I’d rather they not waste their precious time. I loved it as a kid, but even then the community was stupidly toxic and loaded with bully personalities that I very much remembered when I tried to come back to it in HC. Now they’ve made the gameplay suck, it’s just plain dead to me.

 

It’s hypothetically possible they could successfully revive it, but considering how long it’s taking them to get around to slightly tweaking underperforming powersets or minor QoL fixes, I’d rather them not blow a year on what’s been completely destroyed for like ~13 years. If it takes them this long to think about lowering a couple of animation times for Kinetic Melee, do we really want to tell them to go fix PvP?

Edited April 14, 2022 by arcane

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

Slows and mezzes would need to go back to pre-i13 state at the least. I used to love duels the best, and my favorite characters were Storms and Colds. Disruption and whittle-down-slowly wins were my favorite. The City of Blasters burst-damage-or-just-don’t-play meta is lame as hell. 
 

That said I’d rather they not waste their precious time. I loved it as a kid, but even then the community was stupidly toxic and loaded with bully personalities that I very much remembered when I tried to come back to it in HC. Now they’ve made the gameplay suck, it’s just plain dead to me.

 

It’s hypothetically possible they could successfully revive it, but considering how long it’s taking them to get around to slightly tweaking underperforming powersets or minor QoL fixes, I’d rather them not blow a year on what’s been completely destroyed for like ~13 years. If it takes them this long to think about lowering a couple of animation times for Kinetic Melee, do we really want to tell them to go fix PvP?

The beauty of it is that the devs will work on whatever they want to work out. 

[arcane]

8 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

The beauty of it is that the devs will work on whatever they want to work out. 

Sure. Just expressing my opinion. And yeah, if they still can’t get around to many of the most basic problems in the game, my hope that PvP is genuinely fixed is approximately zero.

[Glacier Peak]

16 minutes ago, arcane said:

Sure. Just expressing my opinion. And yeah, if they still can’t get around to many of the most basic problems in the game, my hope that PvP is genuinely fixed is approximately zero.

Fair enough

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

Slows and mezzes would need to go back to pre-i13 state at the least. I used to love duels the best, and my favorite characters were Storms and Colds. Disruption and whittle-down-slowly wins were my favorite. The City of Blasters burst-damage-or-just-don’t-play meta is lame as hell. 
 

As much as my controllers and doms would love this, this would probably be a nonstarter for the pvp community. I’ve read too many times we’re many pvpers hated playing “city of ran out of break frees so you’re a statue now”. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

Fair enough

I don’t think we should be expecting any major widespread changes anytime soon for pvp or pve. I think the OP and everyone else need to be realistic when making suggestions. The team is nowhere near the size of Paragon Studios. And PS was a small studio to begin with.

 

Expecting ANY large scale of fast changes on Homecoming just isn’t realistic.

[Marbing]

3 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I think the OP and everyone else need to be realistic when making suggestions.

I don’t know why you would assume I’m being unrealistic. I am simply asking what changes people would like to see, not expecting nor demanding them to be implemented. I have no expectations of delivery on any suggestions I make but it doesn’t change the fact that we are still allowed to inquire about possible changes. Who knows, maybe the Dev team will like our ideas? Maybe they will have time and/or prioritize it? That’s not for you nor me to say. It’s entirely up to them and I am fine either way because at the end of the day… I still get to play CoH.

[golstat2003]

Did not mean that in a hostile manner. Was just reiterating what @arcane had mentioned.

 

also it’s very easy to see where the dev team’s focus is. Check the beta discord or ask to be in beta.

 

There are literally hundred of suggestions in the suggestions forums. I doubt we will ever see 5% of them implemented. This in no way means that folks should not continue to make suggestions.

 

As I mentioned theory crafting can be fun.

 

EDIT: I also don’t think you can increase the number of folks who pvp without a larger scale plan other than tweaks. And that plan needs to take into account the opinions of the current pvp community. If you want to improve pvp for the folks already doing that . . . Well the dev team is already doing that. Again see the discord beta channel, where direct feedback with the pvp community to HC is taking place.

Edited April 14, 2022 by golstat2003

[The_Warpact]

36 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Did not mean that in a hostile manner. Was just reiterating what @arcane had mentioned.

 

also it’s very easy to see where the dev team’s focus is. Check the beta discord or ask to be in beta.

 

There are literally hundred of suggestions in the suggestions forums. I doubt we will ever see 5% of them implemented. This in no way means that folks should not continue to make suggestions.

 

As I mentioned theory crafting can be fun.

 

EDIT: I also don’t think you can increase the number of folks who pvp without a larger scale plan other than tweaks. And that plan needs to take into account the opinions of the current pvp community. If you want to improve pvp for the folks already doing that . . . Well the dev team is already doing that. Again see the discord beta channel, where direct feedback with the pvp community to HC is taking place.

Do you have a link to this Discord? I'm not too familiar with Discord so it would be appreciated. 

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

Do you have a link to this Discord? I'm not too familiar with Discord so it would be appreciated. 

It’s the Gold Testers Discord.

Reach out to @Bopperfor information on how to get on. I believe he handles applications and invites. 

[The_Warpact]

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh @Bopper R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn"

Maybe that's not right...

 

Master @Bopper protect us. In your light we thrive. In your mercy we are sheltered. In your wisdom we are humbled.

Probably not it either...

 

For all we ought to have thought, and have not thought; all we ought to have said, and have not said; all we ought to have done, and have not done; I pray thee, @Bopper, for forgiveness

Yeah, definitely not it, hhhmm how do you get ahold of this guy.

[UltraAlt]

On 4/13/2022 at 6:07 PM, Marbing said:

A) Open up more builds/ATs to being relatively competitive. 

 

Yes. This is the main problem. PVP balance.

The CITY was not built for PVP. The DEVs tried to cram PVP into a game based on PVE. 

In the perfect PVP situation, all ATs and power sets should yield and equal chance of defeating any other ATs or power set. 

 

It's no fun to getting ganked.

 

On 4/13/2022 at 6:07 PM, Marbing said:

B) Give incentive enough to PvP that makes it worth the investment.

 

The CITY is a Team Superhero PVE game.

The PVP was thrown in after-the-fact.

The incentive to PVP is to PVP.

 

Even if there is no one in PVP zones to fight, there is plenty of things to do in PVP zones if you want to go there. The XP is actually pretty good in PVP zones. There a missions in the PVP zone - which are different than the normal PVP missions.

 

My point here, is that all the content is not PVP and I believe the additional incentives that you are suggesting are not PVP related and do not appear to require PVP participation, but simply being in the zones. 

So maybe more specifics.

 

On 4/13/2022 at 6:07 PM, Marbing said:

Introduce worthwhile PvP events. I would love to see an alert for RV where heroes/villains are needed for xyz task. Much like the Nemesis events or Rikti Invasions. Something that will draw a crowd. Which means it will have to be worth it. And likely means opposing goals.

 

I think that you have already proven your own point with the above.

Why should the DEVs invest time into content that most players won't participate in?

 

**** The similarity between Villain content and PVP content ****

 

I don't think it is being uncivil to say that many of your ideas in regard to more PVP participation are the same discussion that villains have about not having enough villains to game with.

That being said, I could just direct you to those posts, but that might seem to be uncivilized or what not.

 

If it is something you want to do, then do it regardless of how many other players are doing it.

If you want others to do that thing with you, then use LFG and the forums to recruit for it, and keep recruiting/announcing it. 

Have a consistent time that you want to PVP, put it on the calendar and post in in the PVP thread.

And most important of all, go back to "If it is something you want to do, then do it regardless of how many other players are doing it."

 

It looks like some are already starting to do this.

I seriously think that is the pathway to achieving your goal.

 

If you disagree, get with the people that host Tanker Tuesdays or Calendar-listed Hami Events and see what they have to say about it.

 

So yes, talk it up and throw your ideas around.

But I wouldn't expect the DEVs to do too much to fix what the DEVs before the sunset didn't think it was worth the time to fix.

 

Now saying that, it makes me think.

If you know which AT, build, or load-outs that are good for PVP, list them for players so that they have a chance to enjoy PVP.

If you know that an AT or certain powers are bad for PVP,  list them for players so that they have a chance to enjoy PVP.

And that's pretty much it. If you make PVP fun to play, then people will play. If PVP is no fun, people aren't going to want to PVP.

 

So at this point, I guess I should point out the attitudes of some PVP players before the sunset was bad and drove people from playing PVP.

No one enjoys getting ganked. No one enjoys being called a loser.

 

You can always end up defeating a PVE enemy.

You can't always win in PVP unless you want to be the one driving other players away from wanting to PVP.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh @Bopper R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn"

Maybe that's not right...

 

Master @Bopper protect us. In your light we thrive. In your mercy we are sheltered. In your wisdom we are humbled.

Probably not it either...

 

For all we ought to have thought, and have not thought; all we ought to have said, and have not said; all we ought to have done, and have not done; I pray thee, @Bopper, for forgiveness

Yeah, definitely not it, hhhmm how do you get ahold of this guy.

 

[Mezmera]

5 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

As much as my controllers and doms would love this, this would probably be a nonstarter for the pvp community. I’ve read too many times we’re many pvpers hated playing “city of ran out of break frees so you’re a statue now”. 

 

Yeah mez changes were called for in PvP.  Maybe not exactly how it is in its current form but it was game over if a domi got rolling in domination.  I just hate that currently holds are more efficient on non-control characters because they detonate damage much better.

 

I wouldn't advise a return of that old mez system but I also detest the current damage spam style of pvp.  Any quirks that underperforming power sets had to give them something to stand on has been "fixed" and conversely already strong PvP characters have been given more hp, better buffing/debuffing and have better damage opportunity altogether.  

 

PvP is going to be real hard to "fix" to get it to where most every character feels viable beyond the blaster/defender/fiteklubbers.  This is not an enviable endeavor I'd wish on the devs.  

[arcane]

I guess that’s a couple votes for “one playstyle or gtfo”.
 

The old mez system let mez AT’s dominate sometimes after a hard-fought minutes-long stalemate. The current mez system just tells them to reroll. Old system had frustrations. Current one is trash they can finish burning to the ground for all I care. Think I’m done here.

[Troo]

 

On 4/14/2022 at 11:35 AM, The_Warpact said:

Do you have a link to this Discord? I'm not too familiar with Discord so it would be appreciated. 

 

and there is the problem.

basic communication lapses and disjointed efforts. it is disappointing.

"wth happened to my character?!" "oh you got revamped. we discussed and tested and reiterated, you should have participated in the secret discussions/group"

I have been concerned homecoming could be remembered for loosing players bunches at a time over this until it is no longer viable, rather than the amazing work that was done to resurrect, stabilize and modernize the back end of a old legendary game.

 

back on topic

On 4/13/2022 at 3:07 PM, Marbing said:

That said, I don’t know what changes NEED to happen,

 

Big 3

1. PVE and PVP would need to be the same (or at least similar enough to feel the same).
2. PVP would need active moderation so a couple bad apples don't wreck things.
3. Players shouldn't experience insta-defeat. (eliminate what folks dislike the most, feeling useless/helpless)

Others

• Raise awareness on a way to 1v1 from PvP zones.
• Additional rewards already exist in PvP, no more should be needed. (I could be okay with a slight PvP enhancement drop rate if not already in place. Similar to existing exp.)
• Just auto apply the fake-accolades, don't make people have to figure it out or how to buy them. (this could be the reward for the pvp zones)

Balance in pvp could be a fools errand. There are simply better combos and builds. Softening that reality for someone that doesn't know better could be time better spent. (I'm not saying there shouldn't be some balance in the the game overall, it just doesn't need to be the priority)

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Troo

[Rudra]

35 minutes ago, Troo said:

A way to 1v1 from PvP zones.

This is already possible. On the very rare occasions I ventured into a PvP zone on Live and did not immediately leave seething, I actually saw heroes and villains engaging in 1 on 1 and 2 on 1 (with agreement) fights. It was a rare sight, usually I saw 8 on 1 gank jobs, but it did happen.

 

(Edit: And if I was on my MM and a pair of heroes challenged me and no one else jumped in, I would even fight them from time to time.)

Edited April 15, 2022 by Rudra
Corrected "one" to "on".

[Troo]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:58 PM, Rudra said:

This is already possible. On the very rare occasions I ventured into a PvP zone on Live and did not immediately leave seething, I actually saw heroes and villains engaging in 1 on 1 and 2 on 1 (with agreement) fights. It was a rare sight, usually I saw 8 on 1 gank jobs, but it did happen.

 

(Edit: And if I was on my MM and a pair of heroes challenged me and no one else jumped in, I would even fight them from time to time.)

 

yep. Ive done plenty of zone fight club. it was a fairly popular activity.. until someone else would jump in and gank a player. not super honorable, but it was an open zone. the toxicity that would typically ensue is what would be great to avoid.

maybe drop an arena terminal in the zones. could be a nice addition.

maybe wouldn't even need to leave the pvp zone to 8v8 or other. turns out arena can be accessed anywhere.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Troo

[MJB]

you can access the arena from anywhere (including pvp zones) to do impromptu 1v1s using the menu:

 

 

it would be nice if people would try to play/understand how pvp actually plays at the moment instead of making suggestions based on their experiences of trying pvp once 14 years ago, the game has changed a bit since then. 

[The_Warpact]

16 minutes ago, MJB said:

you can access the arena from anywhere (including pvp zones) to do impromptu 1v1s using the menu:

 

 

it would be nice if people would try to play/understand how pvp actually plays at the moment instead of making suggestions based on their experiences of trying pvp once 14 years ago, the game has changed a bit since then. 

I know, I know I'm going to get my toon up and running this weekend and try it out.