PvP suggestions (Civil feedback only please)

[Marbing]

4 hours ago, macskull said:

My response to that question is basically "it's not that simple." In 8v8 stuff, melee is not particularly useful because of the specific timing required to defeat a target (attacks are coordinated, all damage comes in within a 2-to-3-second window, etc.) and because having to get into melee range to execute attacks is a dead giveaway which will make the target phase or jaunt away and ruin the spike. In smaller-team (think 3v3-type stuff) melee can be just fine since the concerns I described for large-team stuff aren't really there. In duels most melee characters can at worst force a draw by simply playing intelligently, and many times can beat ranged characters. In zone PvP it's a free for all and none of that really matters, but melee ATs are popular because they can shrug off huge amounts of damage while getting some decent attacks in occasionally.

 

It's a damage/survivability balance: melee ATs tend to be way more survivable when played well than any ranged AT, but dealing consistent damage with a melee AT is more difficult because of the game's pace. You can't really slow down that pace without slowing it down for everyone, and that takes away probably the most unique thing about CoH PvP.

This is good info, thank you. Though I’ve never seemed to struggle 1v1 vs any brute, tank, or scrapper. Not hard to kite. Stalkers are a bit different, though.

 

Side note: I miss my Sonic/EM in PvP 😞 *sigh* good times.

 

2 hours ago, MJB said:

I would go as far as to say melee AT's are overpowered and reducing the gap would mean nerfing melee across the board. they arent seen in 8v8 due to the ruleset (taunt ban) and because being able to tank 4 people at the same time doesnt matter when there are 8 people on the other team. in small team/zone with just a bit of practice with movement they are definitely strong. in 1v1 i would be willing to bet 2b+ inf i could beat any blaster with a few of my scrappers.

This is also good info! Thank you!

 

[Glacier Peak]

5 hours ago, MJB said:

I would go as far as to say melee AT's are overpowered and reducing the gap would mean nerfing melee across the board. they arent seen in 8v8 due to the ruleset (taunt ban) and because being able to tank 4 people at the same time doesnt matter when there are 8 people on the other team. in small team/zone with just a bit of practice with movement they are definitely strong. in 1v1 i would be willing to bet 2b+ inf i could beat any blaster with a few of my scrappers.

 

also melee is quite fun in small team stuff, for example:

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1022183669

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1032482146

Psi Melee/Rad Armor ftw! I've been running a Stalker with those powersets, it helps to have another attack in the rotation with AS.

[Marbing]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

Psi Melee/Rad Armor ftw! I've been running a Stalker with those powersets, it helps to have another attack in the rotation with AS.

I have found SJ/Bio very fun. But haven’t had any success with other melee toons in PvP. I tried my Widow and she got trashed, same with my claws/SR scrapper. But, to be fair, my widow wasn’t built for it. 

[Glacier Peak]

17 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I have found SJ/Bio very fun. But haven’t had any success with other melee toons in PvP. I tried my Widow and she got trashed, same with my claws/SR scrapper. But, to be fair, my widow wasn’t built for it. 

Yeah, I've had to do a good deal of trial and error to find something that works well and is fun to play. That's what I like though, it's figuring things out and testing until something clicks. 

[Mezmera]

On 4/18/2022 at 7:40 AM, macskull said:

Finally, I want to address a separate comment I've heard over and over and over again: "more stuff needs to be viable" or "only a few builds are good in PvP" or anything along those lines. In a game with literally thousands of powerset combinations, you cannot make everything or even most things viable. You could potentially do something like LoL where there's significant rebalancing every so often to shake up the meta and keep things fresh, but that requires a ton of dev attention which won't happen here. What you find in CoH is the sets/ATs that are "good" vary by the type of PvP you're engaging in - different stuff is good in large team settings, small team settings, and anything-goes zone settings. For the most part, PvP favors sets which provide high single-target burst damage, so naturally the sets which are useful are going to be limited. It's the same reason I wouldn't bring an FF/AR Defender as a fire farmer - sure, I could make it work but it isn't going to be good at it.

 

To be fair there were a lot more viable characters to play in PvP at sunset compared to how it currently is, so it has regressed under all this expert tutelage. 

 

A lot of people that have a gripe with the current state of PvP has a lot to do with how it was left last on live to how it is now.  The "professionals" keep getting things fixed to suit their 8v8 format because a hold dares last long enough to get someone a kill.  Yet quite a few of these people that have a problem with a hold are content with all of the other broken things about their 8v8 format.  Maybe the people getting things "fixed" should play these highly squishy characters more often and try to survive in the 8v8 format when the other team should be ruthlessly spiking and harassing the shit out of that easily killable scary character.  

 

Thanks to all of these "fixes" we've marginalized a whole subset of ATs to where they are absolute trash outside of that 8v8 format.  I like to think myself pretty objective.  I know how harsh control was pre-i13 and can only imagine how rough it could be with Dom's now being able to instantly start off in domination if we reverted the mez system so if we're going to go brow beating people that want to have more options to play outside of the blaster/defender/melee character when these people keep seeing their already limited options consistently being "fixed" then that just makes me want to toss out objectivity and say screw it lets just turn mez back to how it was and let things like TK work again.  

 

You could create more "viable" options if say you lowered the ranged damage a blaster can do or the buff/debuffing values a defender can bring instead of nerfing a hold that lasts a few seconds too long for your taste.  Before you go mentioning the AS stalkers can set up better with a better hold well them's the breaks.  I just find it peculiar the "experts" keep getting subpar things nerfed to keep broadening the gap for these characters to compete against the meta all to suit a coordinated 8v8 match.  Maybe the rule makers should just put other rules in place rather than further breaking things that don't suit their taste anyways... 

[M3z]

i13 just removed basically all of the mechanics(via DR) and made mezzes useless (outside of spiking in 8v8s) so nothing really functions. If those mechanics and mezzes were reintroduced a lot more things would be viable. But that'd be really complex thing to accomplish and balance. It would also require adjustments to DR curves, base resistances, procs in relation to base damage etc. Also i'd rather shoot myself then try to argue about mez changes with the competitive pvp community again because a lot of post i12 pvpers just don't have a clue about what made i12 so good.

 

I've made so many posts about this same subject that I just can't rewrite the same thing I've written like 500 times lol so I'm gonna keep it nice and succinct this time.

[macskull]

I'm going to assume you're speaking to the player-driven I27P1 and I27P2 PvP changes in this post, but if not I apologize.

 

6 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Thanks to all of these "fixes" we've marginalized a whole subset of ATs to where they are absolute trash outside of that 8v8 format.  I like to think myself pretty objective.  I know how harsh control was pre-i13 and can only imagine how rough it could be with Dom's now being able to instantly start off in domination if we reverted the mez system so if we're going to go brow beating people that want to have more options to play outside of the blaster/defender/melee character when these people keep seeing their already limited options consistently being "fixed" then that just makes me want to toss out objectivity and say screw it lets just turn mez back to how it was and let things like TK work again.

 

You keep saying this, but I'm struggling to think of any examples of powersets or ATs that have been made "absolute trash" because of Homecoming's PvP-related changes that weren't already in that category. Before you say "Dominators:" no. Most teams were running a 2-Emp 3-Blaster 3-Dominator lineup for a good part of 2019. Dominators didn't suddenly become bad, people just realized Natures and Rads/Poisons were more valuable in a lineup because they made the entire team less squishy.

 

I'm also going to assume you're talking about the Dark Control hold getting its hold duration reduced (as a reminder, its original 8-second duration was a bug), but I find it difficult to believe you actually think an 8-second-base hold was okay in a game where mez protection literally did not exist. Fast forward to today, where you can actually get mez protection in PvP again, and an 8-second hold might be more workable. I'm not going to pretend the current mez system is great - but I'm also not going to pretend the old one was either. There's a middle ground somewhere, and I'm sure there's a solution players can mostly agree on.

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

Most teams were running a 2-Emp 3-Blaster 3-Dominator lineup for a good part of 2019. Dominators didn't suddenly become bad, people just realized Natures and Rads/Poisons were more valuable in a lineup because they made the entire team less squishy.

 

Why would ANY team be running more than 1-2 Domi's?  That right there seems like a very dumb thing to be doing on its face what with crossing over each others Mez timers and all.  Seems like a real inefficient lineup to start when you can replace 1-2 of those Dom's for better burst damage on target with more blasters that also have such better survivability.  If teams were running 3 Doms it'd seem more for luls and sentimentality than making an actual efficient game of it. 

 

Messing up mez timers was a big no-no on jump teams back on live which is why psi blasters were directed to not lead with that sleep attack.  

 

I also find it real hard to see how it took ever so long for people to realize how good Nature is when it took me a whole 5 minutes in a zone seeing my target just be able to stop mid-zone and absorb/heal through the damage I could put on them.  

 

Coming from last what I knew on live to playing HC's version of PvP I knew going in that Dom/Controllers were already a handicap for the team.  Then we've buffed the meta even further for some ridiculous reason and took away anything competitive for underperforming ATs to leverage and that seems reasonable to you eh?  And you hope to attract more people with this strategy?

 

Fact of the matter is the already PvP meta has been exacerbated since the sunset of live and some of the current community can't come to terms with the fact that they may be playing some small part in its demise.

 

 

[Mezmera]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

I'm also going to assume you're talking about the Dark Control hold getting its hold duration reduced (as a reminder, its original 8-second duration was a bug), but I find it difficult to believe you actually think an 8-second-base hold was okay in a game where mez protection literally did not exist. Fast forward to today, where you can actually get mez protection in PvP again, and an 8-second hold might be more workable. I'm not going to pretend the current mez system is great - but I'm also not going to pretend the old one was either. There's a middle ground somewhere, and I'm sure there's a solution players can mostly agree on.

 

And again.  How monumentally broken you find this Dark control hold to be is contingent on a coordinated 8v8 match whereas I find Nature/Cold/Poison and the new OP elec sappers to be broken in lesser matches so where's the fix on those?  Not to mention how good Blasters and some other power sets are just great all around and have been so since sunset.

 

We also can't come up with a good solution for TK so we're just going to nullify that power altogether?  If you don't think defenders should be able to do what they did with TK sure I'm with you there but the total disregard of the control AT to appease the 8v8 meta has kind of screwed the pooch a tad for attracting anything new to the community.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Mezmera

[Void]

I really want "Pseudo" PvP. Think Incarnate trials or TFs where a player is playing as Lord Recluse or some other AV. It would require the league or team to play a lot more dynamically than just wait out patterns.  

[macskull]

40 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Why would ANY team be running more than 1-2 Domi's?  That right there seems like a very dumb thing to be doing on its face what with crossing over each others Mez timers and all

Because teams weren't using them for the mez, they were using them for Blaze -> Fossilize spikes. The hold from Fossilize was largely irrelevant if you had clean spikes since your target would be dead at the same time the hold would occur anyways. That team comp also wasn't really a HC-specific thing, the winning team from the 2011 Freedom PvP League ran Dom-heavy lineups with Earth/Fires for the exact same reason.

 

18 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

And again.  How monumentally broken you find this Dark control hold to be is contingent on a coordinated 8v8 match whereas I find Nature/Cold/Poison to be broken in lesser matches so where's the fix on those?  Not to mention how good Blasters and some other power sets are just great all around and have been so since sunset.

 

We also can't come up with a good solution for TK so we're just going to nullify that power altogether?  If you don't think defenders should be able to do what they did with TK sure I'm with you there but the total disregard of the control AT to appease the 8v8 meta has kind of screwed the pooch a tad for attracting anything new to the community.

The key difference between the Dark hold and the other examples you gave is the hold (like any other hold) literally had no counter. You could do nothing to avoid it, save hoping it just missed, and if not you got to sit there for the next 8 to 12 seconds hoping you'd live. The Dark hold wasn't really a problem in 8v8 stuff because as soon as the community found out it was busted they banned the power, it was way more broken in zone where you'd just get dogpiled by half a dozen enemy players with zero recourse. Sets and team lineups can be countered (that's part of the strategy of team PvP), but broken powers really can't be.

 

As far as TK goes that power's been next to useless since the I13 changes, "we" didn't do anything to nullify it. If we're talking about control ATs as a whole, quite a few teams have run out of the box lineups with non-Emp Controllers but they're rare these days - not due to "total disregard of the control AT" but just because it's a lot of effort for mixed results. People point at Blasters and say "nerf these!" and there's been some of that already (Blaster +range from snipe powers is gone in PvP, for example) but other AT-wide PvP-specific changes which don't affect the AT in PvE are trickier. There's been discussion about adjusting Blaster HP but apparently that is a bit of a stretch.

[macskull]

21 minutes ago, Void said:

I really want "Pseudo" PvP. Think Incarnate trials or TFs where a player is playing as Lord Recluse or some other AV. It would require the league or team to play a lot more dynamically than just wait out patterns.  

Not quite what you are talking about but there was discussion during the I27P3 beta testing about potentially using the signature story arc tech to assign players certain powers so everyone ends up with the same build, which would probably help get more people interested in PvP, but that's still a huge gap from the organized large-team stuff.

[Mezmera]

11 minutes ago, macskull said:

As far as TK goes that power's been next to useless since the I13 changes, "we" didn't do anything to nullify it. If we're talking about control ATs as a whole, quite a few teams have run out of the box lineups with non-Emp Controllers but they're rare these days - not due to "total disregard of the control AT" but just because it's a lot of effort for mixed results. People point at Blasters and say "nerf these!" and there's been some of that already (Blaster +range from snipe powers is gone in PvP, for example) but other AT-wide PvP-specific changes which don't affect the AT in PvE are trickier. There's been discussion about adjusting Blaster HP but apparently that is a bit of a stretch.

 

I've fought some mighty fine Mind/Fire's that would beg to differ on your critique of TK being useless.  If you're cognizant of how to use your controls effectively and not just some Neanderthal you could time it out to get yourself a nice breather/hard snipe (irrelevant now with the snipe change and interacting with the target).  In lesser matches like 2v2 up to like 6's you can drop the TK onto the off target and chase around the main target with one of the support incapacitated.  It gets harder to maintain the TK with the heat you catch in 8v8 and having far less hp or tricks available like other ATs can bare.  Pretty unimaginative if you found TK to be "useless".   

Edited April 21, 2022 by Mezmera

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Mezmera said:

I've fought some mighty fine Mind/Fire's that would beg to differ on your critique of TK being useless.  If you're cognizant of how to use your controls effectively and not just some Neanderthal you could time it out to get yourself a nice breather/hard snipe (irrelevant now with the snipe change and interacting with the target).  In 2v2 you can drop the TK onto the off target and chase around the other with no support.  Pretty unimaginative if you found TK to be "useless".   

TK's banned in most organized stuff for the same reason you like it - it's a broken power with no counter. It's super fun being able to do literally nothing for 20 seconds because someone clicked a button. At least pre-I13 you could pop a couple breakfrees to get out of the repel effect.

[Mezmera]

Just now, macskull said:

TK's banned in most organized stuff for the same reason you like it - it's a broken power with no counter. It's super fun being able to do literally nothing for 20 seconds because someone clicked a button. At least pre-I13 you could pop a couple breakfrees to get out of the repel effect.

 

But if it was useless after the i13 change why the ban?

[macskull]

The answer to your question is in the post you quoted.

[Mezmera]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

The answer to your question is in the post you quoted.

 

You said it was useless after the i13 change which I've proven unequivocally it wasn't.  Which now you're implying its usefulness is now dependent on what some arbitrarily have decided should be not allowed to be used as a basis for its usefulness as opposed to being actually a very effective power to have especially on a well disciplined control player.  

 

This takes us right back to what you find to be broken is subjective.  I find the current meta to be wildly broken, no harder to play than someone using TK, so where's the ban on all of these blasters/defenders? 

[Void]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

Not quite what you are talking about but there was discussion during the I27P3 beta testing about potentially using the signature story arc tech to assign players certain powers so everyone ends up with the same build, which would probably help get more people interested in PvP, but that's still a huge gap from the organized large-team stuff.

Before COV was released, they did a pvp event where the devs played as the Freedom Phalanx in Bloody Bay and also prior to the game shutting down, Arcanaville ran an event on test where they were basically a gamemaster and spawned stuff for people to fight. I think events like that would be fun to try and do. I know it's not quite building interest in large organized pvp, but it would be an alternative that people may enjoy. 

[macskull]

2 hours ago, Mezmera said:

I find the current meta to be wildly broken, no harder to play than someone using TK, so where's the ban on all of these blasters/defenders? 

You keep doing this thing where you insist something that's broken because it is literally impossible to counter is the same as something that's "broken" because you don't like it. Man, I like you, but goddamn have you been so very wrong about this for the last two years.

Edited April 21, 2022 by macskull

[TheZag]

Turn mez back on and give a player that is hit a 25% mez resistance that lasts for (30 seconds?) and stacks 4 times.  The more you get mezzed,  the shorter mez lasts,  until you are immune for a short time at 4 stacks and then it resets back to zero.  (Adjust values as needed to find that balance.)

 

Mezzers have to think instead of spamming holds since they can make their target immune and those getting mezzed have some light at the end of the tunnel if they keep getting constantly mezzed.

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by TheZag

[MJB]

i would be totally for that if it wasnt possible for dominators to also 3 shot people (let alone corrs or defenders, which could do the same thing + heal themselves, or blasters and scrappers who can do the same thing except 2 shot instead)

 

not to mention sentinels, who are as tanky as stalkers while also being able to stack mag 12 holds permanently from range. or forts who can do it with mag 20 holds, etc etc.

 

really the more i think about it, the more i think that for mez to work in a balanced way, damage and healing would need to be nerfed across the board. any mez system just isnt going to be fun to play while kill times on a held target for every AT other than controllers and warshades on a squishy is <5 seconds in a 1v1 situation, let alone team play. even now its fully possible for a dominator to kill a defender 1v1 before mez suppression kicks in, with the only counterplay being changing io sets and setting yourself up with cooldowns like unrelenting before the hold happens.

[TheZag]

Thats why i went with mez resistance instead of mez protection.  100 mag hold for 10 seconds doesnt matter if you have 100% resistance.  The duration will be reduced to zero seconds and the magnitude wont matter.  It would need numbers adjustments but each mez in a short period of time getting weaker would let mez back into pvp but need to be used intelligently as well.

[Marbing]

17 minutes ago, TheZag said:

Thats why i went with mez resistance instead of mez protection.  100 mag hold for 10 seconds doesnt matter if you have 100% resistance.  The duration will be reduced to zero seconds and the magnitude wont matter.  It would need numbers adjustments but each mez in a short period of time getting weaker would let mez back into pvp but need to be used intelligently as well.

Not picking on you, just responding with a paste from the wiki so everyone can see how mez resist works:

 

Resistance to status effects follows a different formula:

 

SufferedDuration = AppliedDuration / (100% + TotalResistance)

So 75% resistance to Sleep duration, for example, would not cause all Sleeps to affect the character for only 1/4 of their normal durations. Their durations would be divided by 1.75, which is roughly only a 43% reduction.

More importantly, the formula means that achieving 100% or more resistance to effect durations does not cause them to end instantly. 100% resistance actually only cuts their durations in half, 200% cuts it to a third, 300% would cut it to a fourth, and so on.

 

[TheZag]

There you go then,  make the numbers bigger.  Or change the pvp formula so 100% duration reduction is achievable. I was going off of 100% slow resistance seems to make me immune to slow effects.  But i do think some amount of mez should work but then become progressively weaker if its used too much on the same target.  It would only be when a hold actually lands though,  not when your protection prevented the effect in the first place. 

[Mezmera]

8 hours ago, macskull said:

You keep doing this thing where you insist something that's broken because it is literally impossible to counter is the same as something that's "broken" because you don't like it. Man, I like you, but goddamn have you been so very wrong about this for the last two years.

 

11 hours ago, Mezmera said:

This takes us right back to what you find to be broken is subjective.

 

13 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Fact of the matter is the already PvP meta has been exacerbated since the sunset of live and some of the current community can't come to terms with the fact that they may be playing some small part in its demise.

 

And for two years the PvP community has just withered away.