Change Confront and Assassin's Strike into a distance-closing attack

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, Koopak said:

If a power is only useful in rare niche circumstances, or arguably, solo. And that power is a core power that holds the lion's share of the AT's mechanics, yeah I'm going to argue that's a problem. Now is it a big problem? No, Stalkers are in a good spot, no one is, or I hope they aren't, arguing Stalkers are in a bad spot. However that doesn't change that the experience of using slow AS is garbage and its hard to make a real case for using it ever beyond:

"I'm playing solo and don't care about my clear speed in anyway or the time spent waiting for an attack to go off for my optimal start" or "I just like it."

Which the latter one there? That's why I still use Slow AS on my stalker, because I like watching a boss drop dead in one smack, even if I could have killed him before he could attack back, by just chaining my strongest non-AS ST attack and then fast AS at no real cost. The incentives aren't there to make Slow AS worth using in the majority of the game, and AS is a core power central to an AT, that is just bad.

To be clear I'm not arguing Slow AS needs a gap closer, though that would make it work more like snipe, or that it needs a damage buff. What I think would work best is first, standardizing all Slow ASs to the faster versions some Powersets have, and then MAYBE (note the caps) a small buff to Demoralize's duration, say from 8 to 10 or 12 seconds. That would make using AS as an opener in a team situation more palatable due to being consistent, and in many cases, up to a second faster, while sweetening the deal just a little with the buff to Demoralize.

That would make it such that Slow AS is roughly equivalent to a little worse than Fast AS in DPA, but more importantly make the animation time as much as a second faster on some sets while giving more incentive to use it. In fact at that point, despite damage being effectively the same, and in no meaningful way impacting dps or even survival much, I would feel tempted not only to open with it if I get to the pack before my team, but maybe even sneak it in with placate for team survival, using fear as a small mitigation tool. As it is however, the power is simply to unwieldy to be used that way

As it is, many, if not most, Slow ASs are just impractical to use in anything but solo.

Regarding AS, I don't think you complaining about slow AS is going to get you the desired solution. If anything changes, reigning in fast AS is more likely since the changes rolled out for it were partly slap-dash on live. On top of that, placate got it's effect buffed which would make any new possible buffs to slow AS even greater.

 

Personally, I think it's just more preferable to accept you don't like slow AS and avoid using it while those that do like slow AS keep course. The moment you start pushing meta into this is when you start screwing with rebalancing for no other reason than a perceived numerical inconsistent in a DPS spreadsheet.

[Koopak]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

@Koopak I get what you are saying.

 

I do feel Placate was already one of the most powerful powers in the game. It completely takes a target out of a fight and sets up automatic crits.

 

Long Assassin's Strike from Hide still automatically crits for ~3x damage doesn't it? Maybe I'm wrong here.

 

If the Stalker is Hidden, Assassin's Strike becomes extremely potent. First of all, if it misses, the Stalker stays Hidden. If it hits, it crits automatically, for almost triple normal damage instead of double. If the target is another player, this bonus damage ignores his resistances. Whether the target survives or is defeated, all nearby non-player enemies (which may include the target itself!) are Demoralized and suffer a small but irresistable ToHit penalty, and occasionally Fear as well, for eight seconds.

 

I accept that I play differently from 'the meta'. I thrive on spike damage.

 

The DPA of Slow AS is, with few exceptions, worse than Fast AS already, adding on the cast time of Placate does it no favors. Sure the burst damage 'feels' good, but its not actually good performance wise. You ultimately are trading a lot of dps for Demoralize, which is fine in personal gameplay choices.

[Koopak]

2 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Regarding AS, I don't think you complaining about slow AS is going to get you the desired solution. If anything changes, reigning in fast AS is more likely since the changes rolled out for it were partly slap-dash on live. On top of that, placate got it's effect buffed which would make any new possible buffs to slow AS even greater.

 

Personally, I think it's just more preferable to accept you don't like slow AS and avoid using it while those that do like slow AS keep course. The moment you start pushing meta into this is when you start screwing with rebalancing for no other reason than a perceived numerical inconsistent in a DPS spreadsheet.

Sorry for the double post, your post came out mid way through my last.

This isn't about my personal play, and its not about 'the meta' as its often derided. Its a matter of incentives. The sole incentive right now to use Slow AS over any other attack followed by Fast AS for MOST powersets is horribly skewed and is reflected by the fact that most stalkers do avoid Slow AS like the plague. It is a false choice that's a bad design element and it should be improved.

I defaulted to buffing Slow AS, because I always default to buffing because its an easier pill to swallow for people. I do not care if Fast AS needs to be nerfed instead, please do, iv said this.

[Troo]

@Koopak We agree much more on this than we disagree. My logic ends at: DPS does not matter if target is defeated.

 

@Rudra & others. We likely agree there is usually some room for improvement. DPS when solo on hard targets does matter, and should not be ignored if n issue is identified.

 

I am a proud Stalker and the suggestion that Assassin's Strike is not very effective because 'terrible DPA' just seems like folks don't really want to play the Stalker AT. When I use Assassin's Strike there usually is a body on the floor.

[Naraka]

33 minutes ago, Koopak said:

The DPA of Slow AS is, with few exceptions, worse than Fast AS already, adding on the cast time of Placate does it no favors. Sure the burst damage 'feels' good, but its not actually good performance wise. You ultimately are trading a lot of dps for Demoralize, which is fine in personal gameplay choices.

 

Then what are we arguing about? The benefits of hidden AS tend to be mostly tactical and defensive. 

 

EDIT: to add to that, the minor to moderate (that annoying mob you targeted is dead before it could activate anything) advantage that comes with a hidden AS is at the cost of how much offense? Maybe it is a large chunk of comparable DPS but you're also not rolling 0 for that exchange. You're still getting a large crit out of the deal.

 

This is further exasperated with sets that don't have high DPA fast animating attacks like Elec, Kinetic and Spines that can blast out a huge crit to eliminate a target before their debuffs are applied on you. So maybe you have accepted the utilities of hidden AS but it's just certain sets you are more concerned with (the ones with multiple high damage fast activating ST attacks inherent to the set).

Edited May 6, 2022 by Naraka

[Koopak]

To quote Galaxy Brain without pinging the man.

• On average, this means that fast AS animates in roughly 36% of the time while doing 39% of the raw damage of slow AS. Without diving into the details yet, the mismatch here also means fast AS will usually outcompete slow AS when it comes to damage/animation time.
  • Only a handful of slow AS's outcompete the DPA of their fast ones at base value, with Broadsword/Ninja Blade/Fire Melee/Ice Melee having 15% better DPA
  • All others have about 85% the DPA of their fast counterpart, with Stone/StJ having 94%, and KM having an astonishing 64%!
  • Just about 4/5 Stalker sets have their fast AS as better DPA from the start!

 

This is the crux of the issue. Can anyone offer a reason why not every AS should compare directly with Broadsword/Ninja Blade/Fire Melee/Ice Melee? If we accept the Slow AS DPA of those four, then I do not understand the reasoning behind the others. (Save for KM which is just busted anyways.) To answer the question of lost dps, you can look at the above, most Slow ASs give up 15% damage for a +50% damage spike.

@Troo The issue is that we are comparing slow AS which 9/10 times means you can get AS and 1 extra attack off before the enemy can complete an attack of their own due to the lag time in alerts. Due to this, Slow AS loses its damage spike utility, and is left only with Demoralize to compensate for lower damage.

[Rudra]

Okay, so fast AS gets the nerf hammer applied to it to bring it in line with slow AS. Or the lower damage sets' slow AS are boosted to bring them equal to the Fab 4. I don't care. As long as AS is not mutated into a gap closer and remains a stalker's ambush kill power.

[Naraka]

48 minutes ago, Koopak said:

 

This is the crux of the issue. Can anyone offer a reason why not every AS should compare directly with Broadsword/Ninja Blade/Fire Melee/Ice Melee? If we accept the Slow AS DPA of those four, then I do not understand the reasoning behind the others. (Save for KM which is just busted anyways.) To answer the question of lost dps, you can look at the above, most Slow ASs give up 15% damage for a +50% damage spike.

@Troo The issue is that we are comparing slow AS which 9/10 times means you can get AS and 1 extra attack off before the enemy can complete an attack of their own due to the lag time in alerts. Due to this, Slow AS loses its damage spike utility, and is left only with Demoralize to compensate for lower damage.

 

Weren't they having this debate in the Vigilance thread too? I thought it was established not getting the damage buff while teamed isn't having your damage lowered but rather not having your damage buffed which have obvious differences.

 

In this circumstance, you're not losing the damage spike utility, you're just not getting the same utility. The way you're wording it is like saying you're getting no damage and are left with demoralize.  It's fine to say you're not getting as much DPS with slow AS but getting Demoralize in its stead. All in all, we're just having a semantics argument now because you don't gain nothing for using slow AS nor do you lose damage for nothing.

 

Now if slow AS were numerically superior than fast AS, there would undoubtedly be players complaining they feel punished every time they can't get slow AS off or that tying so much of the AT's potential DPS into a slower ST attack is ruining teamplay or that fast AS cost too much END for the comparatively mediocre damage it does. Perhaps I'm biased but I think it's fine to trade damage for survivability.  The real problem is that the game de-emphasizes survivability because it's so easy to obtain.

[Troo]

On 5/6/2022 at 1:06 PM, Koopak said:

@Troo The issue is that we are comparing slow AS which 9/10 times means you can get AS and 1 extra attack off before the enemy can complete an attack of their own due to the lag time in alerts. Due to this, Slow AS loses its damage spike utility, and is left only with Demoralize to compensate for lower damage.

 

Let me think about this a little bit.

I do recognize the Broadsword/Ninja Blade/Fire Melee/Ice Melee vs the rest at 85% or worse.

If the numbers are drastically different without some nuance or flavor that makes up the difference, yes that should be addressed.

 

Side note: I very rarely miss with fast Assassin's Strike while I miss much more often with regular Assassin's Strike.

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Troo

[Koopak]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

Okay, so fast AS gets the nerf hammer applied to it to bring it in line with slow AS. Or the lower damage sets' slow AS are boosted to bring them equal to the Fab 4. I don't care. As long as AS is not mutated into a gap closer and remains a stalker's ambush kill power.

At no point was i suggesting that, i don't think it being a gap closer is a great idea, MAYBE for some variants of confront but definitely not AS.

 

 

3 hours ago, Naraka said:

In this circumstance, you're not losing the damage spike utility, you're just not getting the same utility. The way you're wording it is like saying you're getting no damage and are left with demoralize.  It's fine to say you're not getting as much DPS with slow AS but getting Demoralize in its stead. All in all, we're just having a semantics argument now because you don't gain nothing for using slow AS nor do you lose damage for nothing.

If you read my wording that way then I don't really know how to compensate for your projected hyperbole. At no point am I arguing Slow AS is 'worthless' or 'no damage' what I am arguing is that I believe it is inferior to Fast AS in all, or nearly all use cases and that makes the choice between Slow AS and Fast AS a false one. There is a correct choice, not a situational choice, and that, to me, is bad. Its EXACTLY 15% DPA + minor annoyances bad. No more, no less.

[A.I.D.A.]

You're all thinking teams, is the problem. Teams will start fights while you're charging Slow AS. That's sad but true. And only in that circumstance does the charge time matter.

 

But a full team of eight people isn't the only way this game can be played. When you're alone, the two seconds or so of charging happen before the fight even starts. It's literally a non-factor. Two seconds does not meaningfully affect "clear time," as I don't think anyone really cares whether they finish a mission arc in 25 minutes or 27 minutes. And the people who do care about speedrunning absolutely everything, probably aren't playing Stalkers in the first place. The fight opens up with a massive triple-damage crit, melting a boss from the start, and inflicting Fear on the rest of the enemy group. It's hugely potent for solo Stalker players as an opening move -- though I will admit to preferring the fast version after a fight has started, and putting my Chance to Hide ATO proc in the Assassin's Strike for mid-combat reasons.

 

Placate is the one that I tend not to include in most fights, even after whatever buff it may have gotten. I think it's AoE now? But I don't really care too much for it. Placate, to me, if I use it during a battle I intend to keep fighting, is equal to the damage of my next power activation (because it causes it to crit), but it's more expensive on my endurance than most attacks because it's a one-slot wonder that doesn't get any endurance reduction, and, well. I can just hit another power instead and do about the same damage -- plus the chance that either power will crit on its own, resulting in more damage than Placate -> T9 attack. Placate being AoE now makes it a valid escape / disengagement power.

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Aida LaCanthe
also add talk about placate

[Koopak]

1 hour ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

You're all thinking teams, is the problem. Teams will start fights while you're charging Slow AS. That's sad but true. And only in that circumstance does the charge time matter.

 

But a full team of eight people isn't the only way this game can be played. When you're alone, the two seconds or so of charging happen before the fight even starts. It's literally a non-factor. Two seconds does not meaningfully affect "clear time," as I don't think anyone really cares whether they finish a mission arc in 25 minutes or 27 minutes. And the people who do care about speedrunning absolutely everything, probably aren't playing Stalkers in the first place. The fight opens up with a massive triple-damage crit, melting a boss from the start, and inflicting Fear on the rest of the enemy group. It's hugely potent for solo Stalker players as an opening move -- though I will admit to preferring the fast version after a fight has started, and putting my Chance to Hide ATO proc in the Assassin's Strike for mid-combat reasons.

I don't mean to be rude but we HAVE discussed this. And I want to highlight that YOU are okay with a 3.67 second cast time to open your fights. Not everyone is, personally it drives me batty some times.

And to reiterate my points about solo, yes, you can solo in this game. However it is an MMO with a large amount of content not designed to be soloed. Yes people have done it but those are the same people that 'speedrun everything'. A power variation that is only good in solo play if you have no care about the time cost it adds, is kind of hard to justify. The 3x crit is easily compensated for by using a strong ST attack for a 2x crit followed immediately by Fast AS for a 33% chance at another. Mathematically this is often if not always better. Demoralize is great, but only useful in certain situations, namely, soloing, namely without a defense capped build. There are no other powers that are only useful in solo play, and while Slow AS is only one part of AS, it is a part that in all other situations is overshadowed by Fast AS and becomes a tripping hazard for playing AND building Stalkers. That is a bad experience.

Should Slow AS be buffed? I think it should at least be standardized
Should Fast AS be nerfed? maybe
Is the issue that power creeped builds have devalued Demoralize?
The point is that this false choice between Slow and Fast AS should be either made into a REAL choice, or removed.

Again im sorry if this feels like im jumping on you, you just brought up poitns already discussed and frankly i got some IRL shit making me snippy.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Koopak

[Naraka]

13 hours ago, Koopak said:

 

If you read my wording that way then I don't really know how to compensate for your projected hyperbole. At no point am I arguing Slow AS is 'worthless' or 'no damage' what I am arguing is that I believe it is inferior to Fast AS in all, or nearly all use cases and that makes the choice between Slow AS and Fast AS a false one. There is a correct choice, not a situational choice, and that, to me, is bad. Its EXACTLY 15% DPA + minor annoyances bad. No more, no less.

 

You say my perception of your post is hyperbole then you post this. You're breaking this down into right or wrong choice now when, in reality, it won't matter if you choose either because the same result will happen: mobs will be dead.

 

Lol I'll continue to hyperbolize your point until you embrace this. It's not that serious.

[arcane]

I feel like someone is telling us over and over that the sky is blue with the tone that a serious problem is at hand.

 

Every last post is stating over and over that things are essentially working as intended. Under no circumstances should you be using slow AS when optimal DPA is the thing to pursue in that moment. If a small minority of sets are not correctly following this obvious general rule, as one post appears to imply, then correct them immediately.

 

Fast AS was the fix for the complaints about slow AS in this thread, whether you’re unhappy about how little that leaves you using slow AS or not. If you really insist slow AS must be buffed, then lay out in detail all the nerfs you would propose to Stalkers to balance out the act of buffing a top tier performance AT.

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by arcane

[Koopak]

The fact that you feel its necessary to conflate certainty with urgency baffles the mind. As I said, Stalker is in a good position. Just because I say something can be improved, should be improved, does not mean it is somehow urgent or immediately important.

I've made my points and at this point further arguing with you seems to be an exercise in futility, rather than proffering new arguments or points you continue to exaggerate my points then use that to dismiss them.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Koopak

[Troo]

9 hours ago, Koopak said:

As I said, Stalker is in a good position. Just because I say something can be improved, should be improved, does not mean it is somehow urgent or immediately important.

 

I appreciate your input in this topic.

 

I believe I agree that Assassin's Strike should be superior to the fast version. That it ends up mathematically not being superior is problematic.

 

Makes me wonder about snipes.

 

 

@Solvernia If your suggestion had been: Assassin's Strike should, upon activation while hidden, close the distance to the target and begin the animation.

Then, I'd like more information please.

[A.I.D.A.]

On 5/6/2022 at 9:26 PM, Koopak said:

Again im sorry if this feels like im jumping on you, you just brought up poitns already discussed and frankly i got some IRL shit making me snippy.

 

This isn't how apologies work. Get that passive-aggressive garbage out of here. If you want to apologize for jumping on me and acting like a jerk because I didn't sift through seven pages of back-and-forth by multiple people, then apologize for jumping on me and acting like a jerk. Own it. Don't try to qualify it, or save face/CYOA, in the second half of your sentence by then blaming me, saying it only "feels like" something, or outside factors, for your misbehaviour.

 

If IRL stuff is making you "snippy," then don't post on public forums until you calm yourself down.

 

In any case. 'Speedrun everything' players tend to be in teams and want teams, because teams speedrun faster than solo players, especially where AVs and hard targets are concerned. Trying to 'speedrun' while solo is not a very successful way to complete missions by yourself -- when you're alone and you only have yourself to rely on, you start to see more benefit from strategies that teams don't need to use, because those strategies are slower and safer, at the expense of raw damage rate.

 

A solo Stalker might see real benefit from staying in Hide and using Boggle on large groups of enemies, or groups that contain enemy types they don't really like to deal with -- either because the enemy hits a weakness in their secondary, or is just generally annoying like a group with two or more Malta Sappers in it, so you can melt one on initiation but the other will drain you. Boggle doesn't cause aggro or break stealth, even if you use the purple confuse proc to spread it in an AoE. You can very safely -- albeit slowly -- thin out large groupings of enemies without ever revealing yourself. Slow Assassin Strike is the same kind of strategy. Yes, it's slower. But the increased safety in fighting a grouping of mobs with one less Boss in it is often worth much more than those 3.67 seconds you spend charging it.

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Aida LaCanthe

[ZeeHero]

On 4/27/2022 at 5:42 PM, Solvernia said:

Modern video game design ensures that all melee class players have a chance to quickly close the distance to attack their target from afar, reducing frustration and making the game far more playable. Right now this is doable with Speed of Sound or Combat Teleport on every character, but it would be better to make this a main feature of melee ATs. There's no reason to waste a pool power pick on something that should be a basic part of an AT.

 

Scrappers should have their objectively useless single-target taunt augmented with a quick teleport function that teleports them immediately to a nearby target. Since long-form AS is not very effective on Stalkers thanks to its terrible DPA, it would also be a good idea to incorporate a teleport component into AS to make up for this -- especially since their taunt is already replaced by a placate.

 

No adjustment would be made here other than adding a teleport and damage component to Confront, and a teleport component to Assassin's Strike. This would make Confront actually worth taking, and give Scrappers/Stalkers an easier way to engage specific targets in melee, increasing their value and helping to diverge their playstyle from Tanks and Brutes.

Hey someone isn't completely ignorant and complacent when it comes to game design! THANK YOU! the downvoters should be ashamed of themselves.

 

Cmon guys this isn't difficult to understand. nothing even remotely contraversial is being asked for here. it would be objectively an improvement to the game so why are people so against it? "COH is objectively perfect and holds up to modern standards perfectly and any change for the better would ruin it even if it is possible" am I right? yes.

 

Grond save us all.

Edited May 11, 2022 by ZeeHero

[arcane]

2 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

Hey someone isn't completely ignorant and complacent when it comes to game design! THANK YOU! the downvoters should be ashamed of themselves.

 

Cmon guys this isn't difficult to understand. nothing even remotely contraversial is being asked for here. it would be objectively an improvement to the game so why are people so against it? "COH is objectively perfect and holds up to modern standards perfectly and any change for the better would ruin it even if it is possible" am I right? yes.

 

Grond save us all.

Stay in your lane n00b 😉

Edited May 11, 2022 by arcane

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

Hey someone isn't completely ignorant and complacent when it comes to game design! THANK YOU! the downvoters should be ashamed of themselves.

 

Cmon guys this isn't difficult to understand. nothing even remotely contraversial is being asked for here. it would be objectively an improvement to the game so why are people so against it? "COH is objectively perfect and holds up to modern standards perfectly and any change for the better would ruin it even if it is possible" am I right? yes.

 

Grond save us all.

Those modern games you're comparing don't have extreme speed and movement options for combat, tho. Can you fly in combat in Black Desert? Can you innately hop half a football field in combat without using a limited skill in Final Fantasy 14? Can you freely teleport around in Guild Wars 2?

 

It's a foolish comparison because it ignores that COH has flight, super jump, teleport and super speed as  pool powers for every character or that one can get buffs or bonuses to build for extremely fast combat movement. It also ignores that the slower deliberate animations of this game still wouldn't give you seamless and responsive leap skills but rather janky ones that have animations that would lock you in after using them.

 

But I think the real flaw with the suggestion is the homogenized nature of it. Just giving every melee the same generic attack is boring. Even in modern MMOs, they diversify these skills by granting then at different levels and they aren't just for melee types.

 

So the idea is just wrong, it's boring, it's controversial (you might not think it is but the 7 pages begs to differ) and it's unneeded.

[ZeeHero]

lolol no one is asking for extreme speed. but yes every single melee job in FFXIV has at least one method of closing distance. Warrior has a lunge with 3 charges AND during its berserk window gets a spinning axe smash lunge.

[Naraka]

5 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

lolol no one is asking for extreme speed. but yes every single melee job in FFXIV has at least one method of closing distance. Warrior has a lunge with 3 charges AND during its berserk window gets a spinning axe smash lunge.

I didn't ask about their leap skills, I asked if they can do a combat hop OVER a boss with just the character directional keys (or at all).

[ZeeHero]

And the OP never asked for that. so.... how is that relevant? all he wanted was for the skills to close distance to a target if within a certain range for the attack. and that was never too much to ask for.

 

Of course we'll never get truly modern combat on the ancient COH engine. I'm totally ok with that and so is everyone here. not an excuse for not trying to make any small change that COULD be done that would help.

[Naraka]

10 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

And the OP never asked for that. so.... how is that relevant? 

Because you CAN do that in CoH which is WHY you don't need to copy a game that can't.

[arcane]

16 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

And the OP never asked for that. so.... how is that relevant? all he wanted was for the skills to close distance to a target if within a certain range for the attack. and that was never too much to ask for.

 

Of course we'll never get truly modern combat on the ancient COH engine. I'm totally ok with that and so is everyone here. not an excuse for not trying to make any small change that COULD be done that would help.

CoH has more methods available to *every* AT for speedy “distance closing” than any other MMO I’ve ever played, that’s for sure. If you’re concerned about closing a distance to a target specifically, you have the F key for all non-teleporters and the teleport-to-target binds/macros for teleporters.

 

This is literally one of the top selling points of CoH - mobility is through the roof compared to other games.

 

The only new thing the OP is actually asking for is for this functionality to exist without any power pool investment.

Edited May 11, 2022 by arcane