KB to KD toggle

[Oklahoman]

4 hours ago, Nemu said:

I don't understand this vehement opposition to...

 

Have you not met the internet before?

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, thunderforce said:

 

OP here, not making that claim. I very nearly always slot complete sets in attacks anyway and Overwhelming Force is perfectly serviceable apart from the no-fun bit. I don't want it but if I get it I absolutely do get it for free.

 

Hell, if this is a serious problem, make the toggle not affect powers where it's felt to provide too great a benefit.

What makes it no fun? (And how do you get it for free? I could use a few free sets of Overwhelming Force....)

 

How about instead, the KB-KD set Sudden Acceleration is tweaked to be more desirable instead of a free advantage from a toggle? I've already made this suggestion in this thread. And it has gone either unnoticed or ignored by those calling for a free advantage on their powers.

 

Even if you prevented the powers that weren't heavily improved by the toggle from being affected by it, there would still be an uproar from those that want to get the free advantage on those powers too. So instead of trying for a free advantage, maybe try coming up with tweaks to the existing sets or come up with new sets to make people happy?

[TheZag]

Damage tests have already been done that show slotting for KB > KD will increase clear speed (lower mission clear times) even with the 'slot tax'.  I say give the people their KB > KD but toggling it on will reduce their damage appropriately to keep the original unslotted for KD mission clear times.  And if they dont like this solution then they just wanted more free power to begin with and never cared about the actual knockback.

 

[Rudra]

5 hours ago, Nemu said:

I don't understand this vehement opposition to having the toggle option as the OP suggested.

 

Those that want their KB can leave it off, slot KB sets into your powers to enhance your kb, go wild.

Those that don't want KB can turn the KD toggle on

Those that don't want KB in select powers can leave it off and slot the kb>kd converter into those powers like Explosive Blast or Nova.

 

Absolutely nothing is being taken away from anyone. Everyone wins.

 

This is no more than yet another QoL change, and we've had plenty of those implemented over the years, toggle suppression being the latest.

 

What I see is a bunch of old guards set in their ways unable to entertain the idea with an open mind. I get it. I feel the same kind of gnawing dissatisfaction every time I see a pure ranged hover blaster build that skips all the melee attacks while having a melee heavy secondary.

 

I think to myself "How dare you sully this AT with such a build, go back to playing sentinels or lol Melee ATs because you are obviously unfit to play blasters!" Perhaps that's the same kind of feeling some of the vocal opponents against this suggestion have. They've worked to make KB work for them and maybe they feel that the toggle cheapens their accomplishment? I can sympathize with that.

 

But you know what? If others want to build and play that way it's fine, it's not my business and it doesn't take away my ability to build and play my characters the way I want. Everyone gets what they want.

As far as the "absolutely nothing is being taken away" bit, you are absolutely correct. That is not the argument. The argument is the free advantage. Currently, if you want the KB powers to be that improved, then you have to use the enhancements. And the OP wants it for free instead.

 

As for it being a quality of life change? No, it is not. As has already been stated, it is asking for a free advantage for those powers. In this case, specifically powers like Tornado and Bonfire. If all you have to do is toggle off KB, then 1) you are taking away from the KB-KD sets we already have rendering them completely moot, and 2) can with no need for anything slotted turn those powers into AV/GM slaughtering beasts. (Unless they have KB resistance and can ignore being juggled in place for continuing damage.)

 

As for the rest of your post? I couldn't care less how other players build and play their characters. (You know, except for some pointers to help me do as well depending on the character.) As long as they are having fun and not stepping on others' fun? More power to them. Go nuts with your characters.

 

In this case, there is a group of players that are so anti-KB, often without thinking about how it can benefit them and the team, that they are stepping on others' ability to play their characters and have fun. And this thread, and the others before like it, are asking for a way to power up their characters while catering to a group of people that feel like anyone playing a KB character is some kind of troll, idiot, or other demeaning label of a player. Which makes them trolls in my book, but hey, I'm weird like that. As I said previously, I played my energy/energy blaster on a PUG. They griped initially, then they shut up because I knew to leave the anchors alone and I only went after single targets to avoid upsetting them. As I have also previously stated, I've seen anti-KB teams kick an energy/energy blaster because of KB, but be perfectly content with an AR/anything (even energy) blaster joining the team. And when the AR knocks mobs? You know what they said? Nothing. They said absolutely nothing about the AR having KB.

 

So at least to me, this is not a KB issue. This is a 'some players are simply against specific power sets' thing. So yes, I am against this suggestion for all the reasons I have just re-stated.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to put in missing second quotation mark.

[Stormwalker]

6 minutes ago, TheZag said:

Damage tests have already been done that show slotting for KB > KD will increase clear speed (lower mission clear times) even with the 'slot tax'.  I say give the people their KB > KD but toggling it on will reduce their damage appropriately to keep the original unslotted for KD mission clear times.  And if they dont like this solution then they just wanted more free power to begin with and never cared about the actual knockback.

 

 

Even as someone who is opposed to the toggle idea (for multiple reasons I've already stated), I think you are missing their point a little bit.

 

A lot of players don't actually want to slot KB -> KD, and only do so because we're trying to be good teammates.

 

That's certainly the case for me with Nova.  When I am soloing, it is actually preferable to have Nova KB, because it buys me breathing room for the crash.  But in a team, KB in Nova scattering the enemies is both annoying and detrimental to the team survival.  So I slot KB -> KD for everyone else's benefit, not my own.

[TheZag]

3 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Even as someone who is opposed to the toggle idea (for multiple reasons I've already stated), I think you are missing their point a little bit.

 

A lot of players don't actually want to slot KB -> KD, and only do so because we're trying to be good teammates.

 

That's certainly the case for me with Nova.  When I am soloing, it is actually preferable to have Nova KB, because it buys me breathing room for the crash.  But in a team, KB in Nova scattering the enemies is both annoying and detrimental to the team survival.  So I slot KB -> KD for everyone else's benefit, not my own.

 

I get what you mean.  But I dont think there is much dispute that most knockback powers become more powerful if they had knockdown for free.  So something has to give somewhere.  Currently we spend a slot.  If that slot was given back in the form of a toggle or null option then somewhere else should lose performance to compensate for the free buff.

 

[Nemu]

45 minutes ago, Rudra said:

As far as the "absolutely nothing is being taken away bit, you are absolutely correct. That is not the argument. The argument is the free advantage. Currently, if you want the KB powers to be that improved, then you have to use the enhancements. And the OP wants it for free instead.

 

As for it being a quality of life change? No, it is not. As has already been stated, it is asking for a free advantage for those powers. In this case, specifically powers like Tornado and Bonfire. If all you have to do is toggle off KB, then 1) you are taking away from the KB-KD sets we already have rendering them completely moot, and 2) can with no need for anything slotted turn those powers into AV/GM slaughtering beasts. (Unless they have KB resistance and can ignore being juggled in place for continuing damage.)

 

As for the rest of your post? I couldn't care less how other players build and play their characters. (You know, except for some pointers to help me do as well depending on the character.) As long as they are having fun and not stepping on others' fun? More power to them. Go nuts with your characters.

 

In this case, there is a group of players that are so anti-KB, often without thinking about how it can benefit them and the team, that they are stepping on others' ability to play their characters and have fun. And this thread, and the others before like it, are asking for a way to power up their characters while catering to a group of people that feel like anyone playing a KB character is some kind of troll, idiot, or other demeaning label of a player. Which makes them trolls in my book, but hey, I'm weird like that. As I said previously, I played my energy/energy blaster on a PUG. They griped initially, then they shut up because I knew to leave the anchors alone and I only went after single targets to avoid upsetting them. As I have also previously stated, I've seen anti-KB teams kick an energy/energy blaster because of KB, but be perfectly content with an AR/anything (even energy) blaster joining the team. And when the AR knocks mobs? You know what they said? Nothing. They said absolutely nothing about the AR having KB.

 

So at least to me, this is not a KB issue. This is a 'some players are simply against specific power sets' thing. So yes, I am against this suggestion for all the reasons I have just re-stated.

 

There's a bit of emotion in that post.

 

It's a QoL change for those that want KD instead of KB. It's not a QoL change for you, but again, you don't have to use it.

 

As for tornado and bonfire, they don't need one additional free slot to be good. The former is already quite competent at AV/GM slaughtering, let's not make it look like one more slot is going to elevate the power to nerf tier. Bonfire is good enough with the default slot and the benefit one can get from slotting that with something other than a KB-KD proc (if they turned on the proposed toggle) is not going to be game breaking. The same can be said for any KB power really, if they become OP with that one slot then they are probably already OP in the first place.

 

And let's just say you embrace KB and slot your powers that way without any KB-KD. That means you are saving potentially 1 slot which can be invested elsewhere to stack more bonuses/procs. With the toggle that's exactly what the opposite camp is doing. saving slots and investing it into other powers for set bonuses/procs. The only difference is that your powers knock back and theirs knock down. Are you telling me that the free advantage is then, in fact knock down? That somehow you too believe that Knockdown is better than Knockback? Is that what you are telling me?

 

If there is indeed a free advantage, that also can be compensated for. Bio armor offensive adaptation carries a slight debuff to some attributes, yet people still stay in predominantly in that mode. So I'm pretty confident that those people that want to use the toggle will take the hit even if the kb-kd toggle carried a minor debuff.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Nemu

[Rudra]

You are either missing or ignoring the point. It is not the 1 enhancement slot that makes it OP. It is the bounce mobs in place on a damage field unable to fight back. The KD component. Not the enhancement slot.

Edit: So yes, for some powers, KD is way better than KB.

Edit again: And again, if the set is such a bad thing for everyone, then let's tweak the set rather than try to get a free advantage.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Rudra

[Stormwalker]

1 hour ago, TheZag said:

 

I get what you mean.  But I dont think there is much dispute that most knockback powers become more powerful if they had knockdown for free.  So something has to give somewhere.  Currently we spend a slot.  If that slot was given back in the form of a toggle or null option then somewhere else should lose performance to compensate for the free buff.

 

 

I'd dispute that a little bit.  It's certainly true in some cases, but it's not universal.

 

For single-target knockback powers, KB vs. KD honestly makes very little difference, especially for a Blaster who is just going to follow up the KB attack with more ranged attacks, so unless I have stupidly knocked the target out of my range (and even if I do make such a blunder, I have Boost Range for that), it isn't going to survive any longer after being KB'd than it would have after being KD'd.  To twist an anime meme, he is already dead.  Or, as I tell my teams, "If I KB a single target, I'm claiming that target and I'm going to finish it, so you can ignore it."  This is the reason I see no need to slot KB -> KD in my single target powers, and in fact don't want to (for reasons I'll come back to shortly).

 

For an AoE power with directional knockback (Energy Torrent, Explosive Blast, etc.), you can achieve the same purpose as the KB -> KD IO simply by hovering above the spawn and blasting downwards.  Even if you don't take Hover, you can accomplish the same thing by jumping over the spawn and hitting your KB power while you are in the air above it (though this requires a good sense of timing and is easy to screw up, so it requires skill).  Or, you can just very carefully use your KB to knock targets at the perimeter of the spawn into the center (though this is more effective with Torrent than Explosive Blast, because Explosive Blast hits a pretty large area).  What the KB -> KD IO gives you here is convenience, in that you don't have to bother doing that.    And possibly lowers the skill floor a little bit, since you don't have to bother managing your knockback.  Personally, I do take Hover, which is why the new build I am working on will not be slotting KB -> KD in either Torrent (where I never did slot it to begin with) or Explosive Blast.

 

EDIT:  I forgot the other method of managing Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast's knockback, and that's to tell your team in advance, "Ok, I'm going to KB the spawn into that corner over there, so the tank should stand over there to be ready to pick them up."  Because KB into a corner can actually help concentrate a spawn rather than scattering it.  This of course requires a team that is willing to take the time to plan a little bit.

 

The one case where you are undoubtedly correct in team play is Nova.  Because Nova has uncontrollable, omnidirectional Knockback.

 

But the biggest reason I dispute your statement is because, in solo play, KB -> KD is not a straight power boost in any case.  In fact, it can be argued that slotting KB -> KD is a detriment to a soloing Energy Blaster.

 

Every blast and manipulation powerset provides some kind of damage mitigation.  Even Fire has an immobilize and a fear (IIRC, my Fire blaster on HC is a lowbie and I don't remember that much about my one from Live) in its secondary.  In most cases, this takes the form of slows, immobilizes, holds, and other means of keeping the enemy off the fragile Blaster.  Note that most Blasters (especially those of us who build for Ranged defense) don't fear the enemy on the other side of the room.  We do fear the one that is in our face!

 

For Energy/Energy, you get only two forms of mitigation, and only ONE form in your primary.  In your secondary, you have some Disorient, though only one reliable Disorient (Stun) in a power that does minimal damage.  The vast majority of an Energy/Energy blaster's mitigation comes from KNOCKBACK.   And slotting KB -> KD results in getting significantly less mitigation from those powers.  Thus, KB -> KD is not a straight power improvement for an Energy Blaster.  It is a tradeoff of offense vs. mitigation.  And since KB really doesn't reduce a soloing Energy Blaster's damage output very much (if at all), this is largely a net loss for the Energy Blaster.

 

This is why we don't like slotting KB -> KD, why we tend to resent it, and only do it grudgingly because it helps our teammates for us to do so.  And this is why we don't like paying an enhancement tax for it.

 

Again, I'm still opposed to the toggle idea.  Because it is getting something for nothing, in a sense, but mostly because I don't want to remove KB from all my powers, only some (one, in fact) of them.  Though if you gave me the option to toggle KB to KD for only Nova, I would happily take it, but I'm not asking for that.

 

But I do think the idea that KB -> KD is a power boost for the Blaster is not nearly so cut-and-dried as people want to argue that it is.

 

EDIT: One thing to add is that the ultimate solution to this problem for the Energy Blaster is to have two builds, one for solo play and one for team play, and to slot KB -> KD in Nova (and possibly in Torrent and Explosive Blast) in the team build and not slot it in the Solo build.  This, however, requires wealth that not every player has (I personally can't afford one complete IO build for all my characters yet, much less two!), and so isn't always an option.

 

EDIT 2: Just for comparison's sake, I will add a situation where KB -> KD is absolutely an advantage, and a huge one - and that's scrapper Claws.  Shockwave is an OK power with KB.  But with KD, it becomes completely awesome.  I don't resent slotting KB -> KD on my Claws scrapper at all, it's absolutely to my advantage to do so!

Edited July 18, 2022 by Stormwalker
grammar fixes

[Nemu]

31 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You are either missing or ignoring the point. It is not the 1 enhancement slot that makes it OP. It is the bounce mobs in place on a damage field unable to fight back. The KD component. Not the enhancement slot.

I focused on the impact of those slots consumed by the kb-kd IO on a build that uses the toggle vs one that doesn't. Because you seemed to state that having that slot opened up for builds, in this context of toggle vs no toggle, is an advantage.

 

With the toggle on - mobs bounce on a damage field unable to fight back

Without the toggle but with the IO - mobs bounce on a damage field unable to fight back

 

Take bonfire for example, a lot of builds leave it as a one slot wonder so the build uses the toggle will be able slot the power with a recharge IO or a FF proc. Is it an advantage? sure, is it a significant advantage? Jury's out but I'd say no, especially on high recharge builds.

 

Most of the KB hate I see is directed to the offensive sets like energy blast/PB/WS/AR etc.... Tornado, bonfire and other persistent KB powers and work differently than nova and it's kin, and they can be treated differently for this suggestion. You already noted that it is a benefit to having those persistent KB powers knock down rather than knock back and I'm confident that the overwhelming majority of the playbase agrees with you, including me. I see far fewer Tornado users that fling mobs everywhere than I do blaster/WS/PBs that use KB badly. It's probably because people have adopted the "best practice" at this point to slot a KB-KD IO into tornado/bonfire, (or maybe people don't play as much support in such an offense oriented meta).

 

If we just isolate this suggestion to something like energy blast, the only people that stand to lose are those that want to have some of their powers kb and others KD. Because they will be paying a true KB tax on the powers they wish to KD whereas the other two camps can ignore the tax altogether. But really, if all I want is to have Nova KD, then that is just ONE slot I'm sacrificing in the grand scheme of things. That's hardly crippling to a build. In addition, compared to the status quo today, nothing changes for these players. Conversely, those that like the KD but want just one of their powers KB? Well, consider that a price that you have to pay to turn that toggle on, you sacrifice one QoL feature for another.

 

So instead of a global toggle why not split it by the powerset/pool? If I were an energy blaster with bonfire I can have two toggles, one for energy blast and one for fire mastery. I toggle on fire mastery to save myself an IO, and I leave energy blast alone so I can blast stuff into the bonfire. My power tray will look like that of a staff/bio scrapper but that's not really setting a precedence at this point.

 

When you decouple persistent KB and click KB, I think the suggestion is better able to come to a middle ground. Right now it appears one is serving as a strawman for the other.

 

I don't see why we can't just compromise.

[Rudra]

First, let me say you have very valid points. However, while compromise would be a good thing, here is why I am still not doing so. If the toggle were implemented, and it did not affect persistent KB powers (thank you by the way for that simpler way to phrase it), then immediately after there will be a push for the persistent KB powers to also be affected by the toggle. And it would be much harder to say no because now there would be a precedent for doing so.

 

Which again brings me back to my other suggestion: tweak the set or create a new one. The biggest, and only complaint I've seen so far, about Sudden Acceleration is that it is an inferior set to the sets players would rather slot. As far as I can tell, no one is really complaining about the set bonuses, just the specific enhancement bonuses focusing so much attention on KB when the set is aimed at changing KB to KD. So I would rather visit that instead. Change the Sudden Acceleration set so that it does not focus on boosting KB. Let its specific enhancements replace the KB components with something else instead. The set bonuses would remain as is unless someone could give me a *very* good reason why those should be changed. It would still be a KB set, but the specific enhancement bonuses would be more useful since the set would no longer focus on boosting KB. (To change it to  non-KB set would require a name change and change to the set bonuses to be more in line with the damage sets, most likely.)

 

Or, we could come up with a new non-unique damage set similar to Overwhelming Force, but with weaker elements for being a non-unique.

 

My point is, we already have the means of mitigating KB for those that don't want it. And this entire thread steps on the already provided means. There has to be a compromise, yes. I don't feel this is the way to achieve it. Especially for appeasing people that are so inherently against specific power sets that they can't even comprehend how KB players with at least 2 functioning brain cells not out to troll the team can help the team or at least not get in the team's way.

 

(And yes, I get rather emotional about this. Because dealing with those players lights my fuse at the wrong end. They are one of many reasons I prefer to play solo. Sorry.)

[Stormwalker]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Or, we could come up with a new non-unique damage set similar to Overwhelming Force, but with weaker elements for being a non-unique.

 

 

As you know, this is my preferred solution to the problem - it's the solution that I proposed, in fact.

 

Truth be told, it's not even really because of the loss in performance from Sudden Acceleration on a practical purpose.  I mean, I don't like it from a practical perspective, but that's not the main reason.  Mostly, it's that the self-defeating design of the Sudden Acceleration set drives me a little bit nuts on principle.  Why do we have a set that has not one, not two, not three, but five Knockback enhancement components in it, and then one piece that converts KB -> KD, nullifying the effects of all of that Knockback enhancement.  It's... kind of a ridiculous design, to be blunt.  And it drives the engineer in me up a wall.  So if I seem very passionate about it, that's a large part of why.

 

[Luminara]

48 minutes ago, Nemu said:

I don't see why we can't just compromise.

 

Not too long ago, there was a relatively new player prancing around the forums, rather proudly boasting of having kicked people off of teams for... not playing defenders the way he/she believed they "should" be played, not playing tanks the way he/she believed they "should" be played, et cetera.  This person treated teammates like employees, and was the kind of boss no-one wants to work for.

 

That's why we can't just compromise.  There's no argument to be made, no discussion to be had, because there is no way on Earth that micro-managing, anal-retentive dickheads should be given control over other players' decisions, and that is exactly what this entails.  No-one can force another player to stop in the middle of a story arc or *F, whip up a build in Mids', perform a respec and slot "appropriate" enhancements... but you can bet your banana split that the instant a KB->KD toggle becomes a reality, everyone with a stick up their ass and a swollen ego will leap at the opportunity to impose their will on others.

 

We are not going to spoon-feed people like the one I'm not naming more opportunities to treat others like shit.  Not on my watch.

[Stormwalker]

17 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Not too long ago, there was a relatively new player prancing around the forums, rather proudly boasting of having kicked people off of teams for... not playing defenders the way he/she believed they "should" be played, not playing tanks the way he/she believed they "should" be played, et cetera.  This person treated teammates like employees, and was the kind of boss no-one wants to work for.

 

That's why we can't just compromise.  There's no argument to be made, no discussion to be had, because there is no way on Earth that micro-managing, anal-retentive dickheads should be given control over other players' decisions, and that is exactly what this entails.  No-one can force another player to stop in the middle of a story arc or *F, whip up a build in Mids', perform a respec and slot "appropriate" enhancements... but you can bet your banana split that the instant a KB->KD toggle becomes a reality, everyone with a stick up their ass and a swollen ego will leap at the opportunity to impose their will on others.

 

We are not going to spoon-feed people like the one I'm not naming more opportunities to treat others like shit.  Not on my watch.

 

That's an angle on this I hadn't even thought of - and I should have, given some of my past experiences.

 

The moment you put a KB -> KD toggle in, some team leaders will start demanding players use it.  And will start kicking players who don't.

 

So, yeah, I was already opposed to this idea, but now I'm even moreso.

[Nemu]

I doubt you have played with him but I'm certain most here have posted knee jerk reactions to his comments the way people would swarm in on anyone that said healer back in the day. I have teamed with him. He doesn't treat people like shit - Misguided in some of his opinions yes, but far from a dickhead. His teams ran fine, and I've been on other teams where the leader had specific ways he wanted to run the team but hey, it's his team. There are occasions where the team didn't do what the team leader wanted and instead of kicking people, he just excused himself from the team like a mature person would. I'm totally ok with that. If I didn't agree with the leadership I can form my own team. Being afraid that you are going to get kicked off a team is just a sign that you are not willing to form your own teams. That's completely on you because you have the power to do so any time and you can also set the terms on how you want your team to play. From what I see in game, this game can use more people forming teams than people waiting to join them.

 

I'm not ok with you just making a blanket assumption that this person is a dickhead and that if this change takes place then your experience with the game is going to be innundated with dickheads that will kick you off the team. Most people that play this game are decent people and it bothers me that you'd just attribute the worst onto them and use that as an example to shut down any compromise/suggestion.

[Rudra]

This is getting off topic, but I don't read @Luminara's comment as that player leading the team. It reads more like a team member getting other players kicked for 'not playing right'. And if that player comes to the forums to gloat about it? Then yeah, I'm inclined to agree with @Luminara. And if I knew who that player was? Then even on those occasions where I feel like running around with others, I would avoid that player's team like plague.

 

Regardless, it was an example to justify @Luminara's position. I don't know that player and don't know who that player is. If the thread deviates into arguing about that player and his/her antics/actions though? It is likely to get locked.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add missing "antics/actions".

[Stormwalker]

7 minutes ago, Nemu said:

I doubt you have played with him but I'm certain most here have posted knee jerk reactions to his comments the way people would swarm in on anyone that said healer back in the day. I have teamed with him. He doesn't treat people like shit - Misguided in some of his opinions yes, but far from a dickhead. His teams ran fine, and I've been on other teams where the leader had specific ways he wanted to run the team but hey, it's his team. There are occasions where the team didn't do what the team leader wanted and instead of kicking people, he just excused himself from the team like a mature person would. I'm totally ok with that. If I didn't agree with the leadership I can form my own team. Being afraid that you are going to get kicked off a team is just a sign that you are not willing to form your own teams. That's completely on you because you have the power to do so any time and you can also set the terms on how you want your team to play. From what I see in game, this game can use more people forming teams than people waiting to join them.

 

I'm not ok with you just making a blanket assumption that this person is a dickhead and that if this change takes place then your experience with the game is going to be innundated with dickheads that will kick you off the team. Most people that play this game are decent people and it bothers me that you'd just attribute the worst onto them and use that as an example to shut down any compromise/suggestion.

 

I don't know the person in question, and don't even know who the person in question is, so my viewpoint isn't based on any one specific person.

 

My viewpoint is based on some of the experiences I had as an Energy Blaster in teams on Live back in the day.

 

As I've said before, there were many occasions where I had people in my team throw a fit the moment they realized I was Energy Blast.   Thankfully, in most of those cases it wasn't the Team Leader, but occasionally it was.  I got pretty good at talking those people into giving me a chance on their team, and never once did I have a complaint from anyone once the party got rolling and they realized I knew what I was doing (even when I did make mistakes, as I sometimes did, because I'm not perfect).  But I can promise you some of those team leaders, if a KB -> KD toggle had existed, would absolutely have demanded that I turn it on rather than trust that I knew how to use my powers to the team's benefit.

 

And this comes back to my main reason for not wanting such a toggle.  I don't want to turn off knockback on all my powers.  Knockback is a survival tool for an Energy Blaster.  If a dangerous melee enemy gets in my face and I don't have enough headroom to fly away from him (or if he can fly), I only have two answers:  Stun (which has a fairly long cooldown) or knock him across the freakin' room.  So I really don't want to give up the option to knock him across the freakin' room if I need to!

[Nemu]

I'm not pig-headed, I can see your point, but I also think the majority of teams you will get on even if this was implemented won't care.

 

If in the case it becomes an issue - Give the toggle a 15 minute cooldown 😁

 

Realistically it can be a 24 hour cooldown because I think the majority people that want to toggle it on won't ever toggle it off. Then you can just make an excuse that your toggle is still on cooldown! Hey, fat finger happens! Problem solved. And if you don't dig the team, play a mission then excuse yourself.

 

1 hour ago, Stormwalker said:

Knockback is a survival tool for an Energy Blaster.  If a dangerous melee enemy gets in my face and I don't have enough headroom to fly away from him (or if he can fly),

Separate topic: I saw the build you posted. I can teach you to be a better builder and a better blaster, if you are open to what I have to say.

[Stormwalker]

10 minutes ago, Nemu said:

I'm not pig-headed, I can see your point, but I also think the majority of teams you will get on even if this was implemented won't care.

 

If in the case it becomes an issue - Give the toggle a 15 minute cooldown 😁

 

Realistically it can be a 24 hour cooldown because I think the majority people that want to toggle it on won't ever toggle it off. Then you can just make an excuse that your toggle is still on cooldown! Hey, fat finger happens! Problem solved. And if you don't dig the team, play a mission then excuse yourself.

 

I still think a better option for KB -> KD slotting (i.e. one where the set actually makes sense) is a better solution, though.

 

10 minutes ago, Nemu said:

Separate topic: I saw the build you posted. I can teach you to be a better builder and a better blaster, if you are open to what I have to say.

 

Skylancer is fairly concept-limited, so she doesn't really represent the best I can do in terms of a performance build, but I'm always open to feedback.  Feel free to respond on that thread.

[Naraka]

12 hours ago, Nemu said:

I don't understand this vehement opposition to having the toggle option as the OP suggested.

 

Those that want their KB can leave it off, slot KB sets into your powers to enhance your kb, go wild.

Those that don't want KB can turn the KD toggle on

Those that don't want KB in select powers can leave it off and slot the kb>kd converter into those powers like Explosive Blast or Nova.

 

Absolutely nothing is being taken away from anyone. Everyone wins.

 

This is no more than yet another QoL change, and we've had plenty of those implemented over the years, toggle suppression being the latest.

 

What I see is a bunch of old guards set in their ways unable to entertain the idea with an open mind. I get it. I feel the same kind of gnawing dissatisfaction every time I see a pure ranged hover blaster build that skips all the melee attacks while having a melee heavy secondary.

 

I think to myself "How dare you sully this AT with such a build, go back to playing sentinels or lol Melee ATs because you are obviously unfit to play blasters!" Perhaps that's the same kind of feeling some of the vocal opponents against this suggestion have. They've worked to make KB work for them and maybe they feel that the toggle cheapens their accomplishment? I can sympathize with that.

 

But you know what? If others want to build and play that way it's fine, it's not my business and it doesn't take away my ability to build and play my characters the way I want. Everyone gets what they want.

 

To be frank, you don't deserve a KB to KD toggle...

[thunderforce]

16 hours ago, Rudra said:

What makes it no fun? (And how do you get it for free? I could use a few free sets of Overwhelming Force....)

 

Even if you prevented the powers that weren't heavily improved by the toggle from being affected by it, there would still be an uproar from those that want to get the free advantage on those powers too. So instead of trying for a free advantage, maybe try coming up with tweaks to the existing sets or come up with new sets to make people happy?

It's no fun because enemies don't get flung away hilariously. I don't know how many ways I can put this. I, and like-minded people, are completely happy to clear missions a bit slower, which we don't care about, in order to ping enemies about the place like billiard balls, which is extremely amusing.

 

I get it for free in terms of a supposed "slot tax". If I was slotting Overwhelming Force I'd slot the whole set because that is what I do. (But more generally this idea that game balance will be damaged seriously if Hypothetically Optimal Man can save one slot is frankly ridiculous in a game where since _2007_ blasters have been able to be turned into omnipotent tank-mages and we're now facing an actual uproar because something is being done to very slightly reduce it. One slot isn't even on the radar.)

 

No tweak to sets that I can see addresses the problem which I already stated in the OP. Some people like KB, some don't, let the people who like it turn it on when they're with people who like it and turn it off when they're with people who don't.

Edited July 19, 2022 by thunderforce

[thunderforce]

11 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

And this comes back to my main reason for not wanting such a toggle.  I don't want to turn off knockback on all my powers.  Knockback is a survival tool for an Energy Blaster.  If a dangerous melee enemy gets in my face and I don't have enough headroom to fly away from him (or if he can fly), I only have two answers:  Stun (which has a fairly long cooldown) or knock him across the freakin' room.  So I really don't want to give up the option to knock him across the freakin' room if I need to!

Presumably right now you use your powers in a way that doesn't make teams that are overly precious about knockback complain. So, if the toggle was added, you would leave it off and continue just as you are. What's the problem?

[Rudra]

It's not about the one slot. I said that in my previous response. It is about the free advantage on powers like Tornado and Bonfire. You don't get to improve powers like those for free.

 

I love using Energy Blast. I love bouncing mobs around the place like a zero gravity ball pit gone crazy. I get that. I don't like it when I try to join a team and the reaction is I have to go because I am the dreaded Energy Blast. I could have sworn I basically already said that. So why you think I am against people being free to play like that is beyond me.

 

I am against the free advantage on specific powers. I don't care if it saves 1 slot. I don't care if it saves 1 million slots. I don't care about the slots. I care about the fact this thread is effectively asking for a free advantage.

[Stormwalker]

8 hours ago, thunderforce said:

Presumably right now you use your powers in a way that doesn't make teams that are overly precious about knockback complain. So, if the toggle was added, you would leave it off and continue just as you are. What's the problem?

 

Because I don't want to join a team and have the team leader tell me, "Turn the KD toggle on or leave."  Which would absolutely happen, based on my previous experience with teaming as an energy blaster on Live.

[Mythical Creature]

People seem passionate about this. I agree with the sentiment that most people who slot the kb->kd do it begrudgingly because the rest of the set bonuses don't help with the main reason I slotted it in the first place.

 

I think a potential fix would be to make overwhelming force a global proc, so that if you equip the enhancement all your powers are kb->kd. The sudden acceleration can remain the same to be used when you only want some powers to change. Well except also remove that chance for kb in overwhelming force, why is that even on there?