Founders' Falls - add below water levels and Swim power

[gamingglen]

I know there's been a desire to have a water zone. But what is in it? After reading another post about 30+ content not being liked, a thing I share because 1) I never liked Brickstown, 2) Founders' Falls is neat, but the villains are less so.   We have more CoT and more Council? *snore* DE could disappear from the game as far as I'm concerned. Rikti and Crey are fine where they are at. So, how can we jazz up the place and make use of the canal aesthetic?

 

Add underwater levels. Like Venice, a city built upon itself as it sinks, FF could be the same but there's a cover up. Developers 🤑 would be hard pressed to sell condos if it was widely known that the place constantly sinks.  So the underwater maps are about two to three levels deep,  so we can have the multi-story rooms most missions maps use. I don't know how deep (-2000.. so Titan Icon map tells me 😄 )  the underwater maps can go, but perhaps two separate map levels could be put in. And one very deep map where a zone monster prowls (FF doesn't have one besides the occasional Kronos Titan from a mission).

 

What would be the new enemy?  Why merfolk of course,  good and bad. And/or maybe something else. One thing that can happen above the water is you hear soft voices, perhaps giggling, but when you round the corner you hear a splash and there are ripples in the water.  You never see them above water even though they like sunning themselves. 

 

How do you swim underwater?  A Swim power is added at second level, just like Walk (and they are mutually exclusive, you can't have both on). When activated you can go below water. As far as breathing, hmmm, maybe there needs to be a Swim power pool ( 😄 ) instead?

 

 

 I can hear it now: "I want merfolk tails!"  Yeah, that would be cool, too.  

 

Maybe that's a bit more ambitious than our incredible dev team is capable of, but it was nice to speculate.  Thanks for listening. 

 

 

PS. yeah yeah, don't tell me about redside, or gloomside as I refer to it: maybe something similar could be placed near the Golden Giza?  They serve a specialty: Seafish Tail, from the tails from captured and killed merfolk (you get that red side is evil, right?). That might be a lead in (a cook contact just outside GG?) on redside about discovering the underwater maps. 

 

edit: forgot something: Oranbega could have an underwater section there, too. Then we have fishy CoT fighting merfolk in that area to control it.

Edited July 11, 2022 by gamingglen

[Rudra]

Why not Coralax for the underwater foes? It /is/ where they come from.

 

So would the underwater areas be access by a gate or other click transition point and everything is underwater? Or would you be able to swim down there from any point in FF? (If you can swim down there by just jumping in the water anywhere in FF, that brings up the problem of water-air interface character controls.) Thematically, how would non-aquatic characters breathe down there?

 

You have an interesting idea, I think it just needs to have the particulars ironed out.

 

Edit: I should be clearer. I do not expect you to solve the water-air interface problem. That is for the devs. It is a problem partially avoided by the current water tile settings. Since you can't stand in it, you have to stand on some thing the tile is resting on, or you just fall through and the water-air interface problem is simply ignored by not needing a swim power. Just a swim emote to temporarily replace the walk/run animation.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Rudra

[gamingglen]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

Why not Coralax for the underwater foes? It /is/ where they come from.

 

So would the underwater areas be access by a gate or other click transition point and everything is underwater? Or would you be able to swim down there from any point in FF? (If you can swim down there by just jumping in the water anywhere in FF, that brings up the problem of water-air interface character controls.) Thematically, how would non-aquatic characters breathe down there?

 

You have an interesting idea, I think it just needs to have the particulars ironed out.

 

Edit: I should be clearer. I do not expect you to solve the water-air interface problem. That is for the devs. It is a problem partially avoided by the current water tile settings. Since you can't stand in it, you have to stand on some thing the tile is resting on, or you just fall through and the water-air interface problem is simply ignored by not needing a swim power. Just a swim emote to temporarily replace the walk/run animation.

 

I'd forgotten about the Coralax. They would work as an enemy. Although, aren't they a low level group?  I still like merfolk as friends but getting fish tails to look and move well might be a big challenge. 

 

Some of the doors that lead downward, manhole covers and the door that looks like it leads to stairs going down would work.  Or swimming. There could be air pockets below that the merfolk keep around to use for some reason (grow own "above" ground food?).  Or coralax use them as prisons for their "food" captured from above. 

 

Instead of just a Swim power, put that in a Swimming power pool (I mentioned that) and add a Breathe Water power. Or, like there are jetpacks for flying, make Breathing Mask as an item. Those could be modified later for vacuum use.

 

Why a water zone doesn't work - 

I don't know what comics have done since I haven't read any in ages.

One issue with water: some powers would work differently. Fire would not work at all. Physical objects are slowed considerably. Bullets would work, but weapons firing bullets would have their range shortened. Sword and staff powers would act like Titan Weapons in some respect. Titan Weapons could be left alone. Perhaps sword and staff powersets could have underwater weapon options, like trident, with it's own animations. Or use those animations that thrust the weapon forward. 

 

Has any MMO-like game added underwater zones?  Is it worth it?

 

[Rudra]

Yeah, CO has an underwater zone. And while beautiful, it is aggravating to navigate. That is poor zone design though.

 

The way they handled breathing underwater was your first contact for the zone 'gives you something that lets you breathe underwater'. Then your first mission is to harvest more plants that something is made from. Swimming is just the flight mechanic there. And in that zone, it works. Outside of the zone where you can swim and fly? The water-air interface is buggy for switching controls. So non-fliers can find themselves briefly flying if they swim and then go up.

 

The fun thing about a fully underwater zone is it is a full 3D environment. So you have to watch for enemies in all directions. Including above and below. As long as CoX doesn't try hiding mission entrances in random coral tunnels, that would alleviate a lot of CO's underwater navigation frustration.

 

(As a side note? CO also has a space zone in a specific task force. And it cheats for breathing in space the same way they cheat for breathing underwater. You can automatically do so, but there is a contact or clickable that can give you an RP reason for it.)

 

As for the Coralax? They are more a mid-level enemy, but can easily be bumped up to high level like the Banished Pantheon were.

 

My biggest concern for this suggestion is the swim-fly mechanic and the water-air interface. CO did such a poor job with it, it looked and felt bad. So if this is done, I hope CoX can fix that problem.

[Clave Dark 5]

Moonbase zone first!

[A.I.D.A.]

7 hours ago, gamingglen said:

 

...

 

Has any MMO-like game added underwater zones?  Is it worth it?

 

 

GuildWars 2 has 3d swimming in all water bodies, and underwater combat with weapons meant solely for fighting underwater. The problem is that underwater weapons have entirely different skills and they're almost universally terrible, so the first thing you do in underwater combat is try to get to the shore and fight the water enemy with a landbound ranged weapon. XD

[TheZag]

Swimming underwater would need to be something like hover with the swim animation applied.  I know of 1 spot where there is 'deep' water and you swim down just a bit and then fall as normal gravity is applied and you walk on the bottom.

 

[arcane]

4 hours ago, Aida LaCanthe said:

 

GuildWars 2 has 3d swimming in all water bodies, and underwater combat with weapons meant solely for fighting underwater. The problem is that underwater weapons have entirely different skills and they're almost universally terrible, so the first thing you do in underwater combat is try to get to the shore and fight the water enemy with a landbound ranged weapon. XD

Yeah it’s aesthetically pleasing and all but being underwater pretty thoroughly sucks in Guild Wars 2. 

[Dynamo-Joe]

I once made a suggestion about an underwater zone that would use existing assets as much as possible and be interesting. 

And I was told the explanation for why true swimming doesn't actually work in COH. (As mentioned above, "swimming" isn't really swimming, it's running with a different animation etc) The one place it APPEARS to work (that one cave in Cimerora is basically a bit of an illusion. You're not actually breaking the rules, it's simply that the "floor" level drops down a bit under that bridge and you don't notice because you can't surface under the bridge anyway. 

 

That being said - when we were having discussions about all this, we thought it could be worked around by changing the rules somewhat. Instead of tying the swimming animation to the run powers. Change it in that zone so that it was attached to the FLYING powers. And by default they have to be on all the time for every player (no end usage at all). In effect, every player gets an invisible "Jet pack" that they can't take off in the zone. No effects or collision model. OR - make it so that the entire zone effectively induces a "group fly" effect on all characters within. 

 

Also - we have submarines in the game already - and the models for them are full models. Not just surface models. I think they are usable base items now and you can view them in full in the editor. So - either "anchor" the sub for entering the zone in one spot or make it a "flying" vehicle that can move around the zone a bit like the Rikti Drop ship. 

 

Speaking of that - my initial idea for the zone was to build the zone using the Rikti War Zone as a starting point. And then add things to it. 

Why? Because of the initial Intro Movie way back in 2004 that showed Statesman taking down TWO Rikti motherships. We know where ONE went. Where'd the other one go? 

 

My proposal was that it went out over the ocean and sank. And thus you have the impetus for the new zone. The second Rikti Mothership was found and zone events could be built around scouting it. Going into it. And fighting off other villainous groups that wished to exploit it. 

 

The zone as I said - would start off as the RWZ. But instead of War walls, replace those models with the walls and natural pylons you find in the Redside version of the Hamidon Zone. That deep deep crater pit it's in. Use those models to build up all the side walls of the RWZ Map and re-texture the ground too. Remove all the building ruins. Or change them into something else. (Maybe Coralax structures on the far side of the zone from the Mothership?) 

Fill with water all the way to the top. (assume you're too deep to make it back to the surface without help from the submarine) Change the lighting. Voila! Now you no longer have a city zone. Now you have a deep underwater canyon off the coast of Rhode Island! 

One of the wildest ideas floated was to change the entire look of the Rikti Mothership texture. Plot twist! When you finally get a good look at the thing, it no longer looks Rikti. Now it looks like ARACHNOS tech on the outside! Using a similar aesthetic to that of the Arachnos Fliers and other bits of that unique tech look of the Rogue Isles. The basic shape of the ship would be the same. But it's obvious that the heroes have a problem because Lord Recluse has been a very busy Supervillain! That idea wasn't mine. But I liked it enough to mention it. 

In short - the idea was to create a unique zone with different movement rules that were adaptable to any player character. But keep the asset development to a minimum. No new textures (or at least minimal new textures). Re-use as much as possible but still make the experience interesting enough to be fun to explore and do stuff in. 

[Outrider_01]

I'm thinking Kedge Keep 🤔

[JasperStone]

On 7/12/2022 at 1:46 AM, Clave Dark 5 said:

Moonbase zone first!

 

Hasn't that been connected to the construction in Steel?

[Dynamo-Joe]

13 hours ago, JasperStone said:

 

Hasn't that been connected to the construction in Steel?

It's a possibility. 

The thing is - back in Paragon Studios, from what we've heard, the ideas were in flux. They started that construction as a "Just in case we DO go in this direction" kind of thing. But it wasn't set in stone. Further ideas connected to that were at least a partial reclamation of Boomtown for a Spaceport/Airport.  OR - Merging Steel Canyon and part of Boomtown. OR - Creating a new small zone that supposedly fit between Boomtown and Steel Canyon. OR - that was one of the original reasons for creating Kallisti Wharf. OR - the launch pad would BE in north Steel Canyon. (I doubt I'd believe in that one, but eh... ) 

At this late date. It's hard to say. 

[Clave Dark 5]

I think also there was some construction added to Port Oakes over on red side for the same effect, "yo8u know, if we ever do get around to that."

[TheZag]

I thought the construction at the old arena site in talos was supposed to be the spaceship.  And while speaking of talos,  the large unused ocean area may be a good candidate of a test area for underwater stuff.  Make a reef and add some fish and people can 'hover swim' around.

 

[Turric]

On 7/12/2022 at 12:44 AM, gamingglen said:

 

Has any MMO-like game added underwater zones?  Is it worth it?

 

 

 

Yes, Dark Age of Camelot added their Trials of Atlantis add-on in like 2003 (?) and while it was never popular for other reasons, the underwater exploration was actually pretty good. There were many encounters and things to explore underwater. After several hours of farming merman things (I forgot what they were called, tritons?), when you came back up there was a sense of relief. There were potions that gave you the ability to breathe underwater. If you ran out, you suffered stamina damage that eventually killed you.

 

I was thinking, that graphically, the idea would be handled just like flying. Just make it a unique flying buff that is slower and looks like swimming. But characters with fire powers and the like would have to be ignored, otherwise there are too many elements that would break the game. And breathing underwater could be a simple cosmetic buff that allows you to do so. If the buff wears off, you die within a very short time, watching your life taken away in chunks. This could be handled similar to the Essence of the Earth buff during Hami raids. You die pretty fast without that buff...

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Turric

[Turric]

On 7/30/2022 at 9:31 AM, Dynamo-Joe said:

That being said - when we were having discussions about all this, we thought it could be worked around by changing the rules somewhat. Instead of tying the swimming animation to the run powers. Change it in that zone so that it was attached to the FLYING powers. And by default they have to be on all the time for every player (no end usage at all). In effect, every player gets an invisible "Jet pack" that they can't take off in the zone. No effects or collision model. OR - make it so that the entire zone effectively induces a "group fly" effect on all characters within. 

 

 

 

Not an invisible jet pack. A SCUBA tank... (voila!)

[Turric]

The more I think about this, I believe it is fairly doable with existing components. Think the Shadow Shard zones. Take away all of the floating islands and such. Put in a floor of a type (or not, deep sea abyss style, crush depth / whatever). Now change the color of the "sky". You now have water.

 

Add the backpack SCUBA thing I mentioned. Have to add some bubble effects, which that might be an issue.

[Rudra]

Some characters are already defined by their players as being able to breathe underwater. My sea demon for instance. Or lacking the need to breathe, such as an elemental character. A scuba tank would make no sense for them. Simplest solution would be the cheat CO uses for their space mission. There is a locker that has a spacesuit, or in this case, diving suit, that gives the character a scuba look if used. Those characters not able to breathe underwater click the locker and go. Those characters able to breathe underwater don't click the locker and go. Those players that don't care about whether or not their characters would feasibly drown don't click the locker and go. The water environment is simply an aesthetic with no drowning mechanic. There are a LOT of inhuman player characters in the game.

[Dynamo-Joe]

That's pretty much what I thought - have an RP element for those players who care. But don't make it mandatory. That's one of the reasons why I referenced the Zone-wide "Group Fly" effect of being in the zone. (It wouldn't actually BE that specific effect. But it was the best comparison I could think of at the time.) 

Oh - and I had a mental block when I was trying to remember what the zone was named that hosted the redside Hamidon raid. It's The Abyss. Irony alert! :D

Edited August 2, 2022 by Dynamo-Joe
Added note